The tread about the holocaust

spongebob

Originally posted by Sean1996

It should be emphasised straight away that there is not a single document in existence which proves that the Germans intended to, or carried out, the deliberate murder of Jews.

That is a lie, there are many such documents in existence.

In Poliakov and Wulf's Das Dritte Reich und die Juden: Dokumente und Aufsätze (Berlin, 1955), the most that they can assemble are statements extracted after the war from people like Hoettl, Ohlendorf and Wisliceny, the latter under torture in a Soviet prison.

Wisliceny confessed the same information to a yank in Nurenburg as well.

In the absence of any evidence, therefore, Poliakov is forced to write: "The three or four people chiefly involved in drawing up the plan for total extermination are dead, and no documents survive." This seems very convenient.

For nasty genocide loving nutters like sean1978 and the loopy revisionists perhaps . Can we carry out some experiment on yiz lads...in the purest interests of science of course.

Quite obviously, both the plan and the "three or four" people are nothing but nebulous assumptions on the part of the writer, and are entirely unprovable.

EXCEPT THAT THE COROLLARY OF THE STATEMENT no documents survive is that Sean 1965 and his mates cannot show where all of these people, alive in 1942 , actually were in 1945, apart from Dead that is.

The documents which do survive, of course, make no mention at all of extermination, so that writers like Poliakov and Reitlinger again make the convenient assumption that such orders were generally "verbal". Though lacking any documentary proof, they assume that a plan to murder Jews must have originated in 1941,

The Wannsee Conference .

coinciding with the attack on Russia. Phase one of the plan is alleged to have involved the massacre of Soviet Jews, a claim we shall disprove later. The rest of the programme is supposed to have begun in March 1942, with the deportation and concentration of European Jews in the eastern camps of the Polish Government-General, such as the giant industrial complex at Auschwitz near Cracow.

A giant industrial complex my hole !

The fantastic and quite groundless assumption throughout is that transportation to the East, supervised by Eichmann's department, actually meant immediate extermination in ovens on arrival.

It sure did for anyone who arrived at Treblinka or Sobibor or Belzec, something like 2 Million people were killed in those three camps alone. Dunno what the 'giant industrial complex ' did .

According to Manvell and Frankl (Heinrich Himmler. London, 1965), the policy of genocide "seems to have been arrived at" after "secret discussions" between Hitler and Himmler (p. 118), though they fail to prove it.
Reitlinger and Poliakov guess along similar "verbal" lines, adding that no one else was allowed to be present at these discussions, and no records were ever kept of them. This is the purest invention, for there is not a shred of evidence that even suggests such outlandish meetings took place. William Shirer, in his generally wild and irresponsible book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, is similarly muted on the subject of documentary proof. He states weakly that Hitler's supposed order for the murder of Jews "apparently was never committed to paper -- at least no copy of it has yet been unearthed. It was probably given verbally to Göring, Himmler and Heydrich, who passed it down . . ,"(p. 1148). A typical example of the kind of "proof' quoted in support of the extermination legend is given by Manvell and Frankl. They cite a memorandum of 31st July, 1941 sent by Göring to Heydrich, who headed the Reich Security Head Office and was Himmler's deputy.

That convoluted streel of ****e could equally prove that Himmlers subordinates such as Eichmann or Stabgl operated on their own initiative ...could it not Sean1954 ? You have not detached the core apparatus of the Nazi party, the SS , from the ultimate execution of the task .

Significantly, the memorandum begins: "Supplementing the task that was assigned to you on 24th January 1939, to solve the Jewish problem by means of emigration and evacuation in the best possible way according to present conditions ..." The supplementary task assigned in the memorandum is a "total solution (Gesamtlösung) of the Jewish question within the area of German influence in Europe," which the authors admit means concentration in the East, and it requests preparations for the "organisational, financial and material matters" involved. The memorandum then requests a future plan for the "desired final solution" (Endlösung), which clearly refers to the ideal and ultimate scheme of emigration and evacuation mentioned at the beginning of the directive. No mention whatever is made of murdering people, but Manvell and Frankl assure us that this is what the memorandum is really about. Again, of course, the "true nature" of the final as distinct from the total solution "was made known to Heydrich by Göring verbaly" (ibid, p. 118). The convenience of these "verbal" directives issuing back and forth is obvious.

That means what in English? apart from the supposition that Sean 1944 thought it looked impressive so he pasted it in here in the absence of any sentient thought process of his own.

M

Wrestlemania

Originally posted by Sean1916
If millions of jews did die then why did they find no mass graves ? more germans died in WW2 than jews.

And why were jews kicked out of every country in europe if their so innocent ?

A quote like that should get you banned are u a hitler lover or what, what pure sh1te you talk.


you gonna tell me that my grand father did'nt die in belsen f*ck yourself you evil crettin.

Go and join the far right or a neo-nazi group you muppet

Zombrex

Originally posted by Sean1916
What "experts" say that ? and how come they found loads of Zyklon B in another building ? were it was used on clothes.

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-04.html

Bare in mind it is on an anti-holocaust-denial website, but the paragraph on the difference between the amount need to de-lice cloths and kill humans seem reasonable -

But - HCN is far more effective on warm-blooded animals (including humans) than on insects, so the period of exposure to HCN is far longer for delousing clothes than that required for homicidal gassings, and a much lower concentration is necessary to kill people instead of insects.

A concentration of up to 16,000 ppm (parts per million) is sometimes used, with exposure times of up to 72 hours, to kill insects, but as little as 300 ppm will cause death in humans within fifteen minutes or so.

That may not be true, but I would have no reason to doubt the numbers.

The website goes on to personally attack Leuchter which I think is slightly unnecessary given that he never claimed to be a holocaust denier.

But it seems clear that his results and methods were flawed and that they don't "prove" there were no gas chambers.

Sherlock

I can't believe this thread can have lasted so long, why on earth did people bother replying to the nazis.Just a couple of points:

1. These guys know very well that the death camps were a deliberate attempt to kill as many jews as possible so theres no point in posting links to prove the holocaust happened, they're well aware it did.

2. As well as knowing it happened, they're actually quite happy it did.

Trying to reason with these nutters is a waste of time, just ignore them.

Wrestlemania

Originally posted by Sherlock
I can't believe this thread can have lasted so long, why on earth did people bother replying to the nazis.Just a couple of points:

1. These guys know very well that the death camps were a deliberate attempt to kill as many jews as possible so theres no point in posting links to prove the holocaust happened, they're well aware it did.

2. As well as knowing it happened, they're actually quite happy it did.

Trying to reason with these nutters is a waste of time, just ignore them.

Here Here they are sick ba5tards.

Sean1916 say it to my face and I will show you a little enlightenment you sick sick F*ck. How dare you even question it or were the camps that are left just big bakeries.

C'mon pal wanna be hard.

BlitzKrieg

Devore i asked them similar questions a couple of pages back Ireland awake answered but not ireland 1916...but i wouldnt mind hearing their answer to your last question...

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by Simi
Please close the thread. Sean 1916 is obviously a 13yr old who just got out of school for the summer and is bored. I've seen his type before all into revolutions neo-naziism and what not. There is no point having a real discussion about this. It is just nonsense.

nonsense to your likes maybe. "please close this thread because i cannot debate, i can't get my little head around this, feed me some more lies and i will be fine" is more like what you are saying. you are incapable with debate so you attempt to insult and critisive those who can. quite immature to say in the least.

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by sceptre
That doesn't follow logically. What you can assert is that if a gas chamber existed (or still existed) in May 1945 after the Russians secured the camp, they wouldn't need to build one. That's a reasonable and logical assumption. Anything else is mere unsubstantiated supposition until you can provide this proof you've talked about. Everyone else can spot this gap in your logic so move on to something else.

The chamber is in a museum. It's not presented as an original and it's pretty clear about that. The same illustrative technique is used at the WW2 memorial interpretative centre in St Petersburg and the Peace Park centre in Hiroshima and also clearly indicated as such in these places, as I can personally testify.

i understand what you were saying. often historical items are rebuilt for educational purposes. however several investigations have been conducted (including leuchter and rudolf's) and the conclusion is that the gas chambers were poorly built, not built during the holocaust and they would be inadequate for such large scale murdering.

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
If any one has been to the site of of a death camp, the atmosphere on site alone will put the chills up you. No bird sounds, animal life or anything. They avoid the site for about half a mile in all directions. Its a very profound experience.

This doesn’t mean anything, you can’t use this as an argument! I could say that about my local graveyard!

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
thats one viewpoint....while i do not agree with the viewpoints of some of the revisionists here they are semi-right on how one should take history. There is a great book called understanding tyranny and it shows how hard it can be to understand what totalitarianism is and how much control some dictators had, the term totalitarianism has been rewritten 5 times in the last 60 years and has yet to be fully agreed on, during the cold war totalitarianism only applied to communist states while fascist and military were Authoritarian (a cuddly version), now socialist describe totalitarianism as an extreme form of consumerism, and the mainstream is states willing to use nuclear or biological weapons. There is a large divisions between historians on how much power Hitler Really had over the actions of the Riech. So if you would perfer i will use the term Nazi Party instead but i wont say hitler had complete control because this is still largely debated...





Actually Hitler gained most of his support from the middle class...not the lower class. Hitlers power came from those who's wealth was flushed away by the wall street crash, He presented the NAzi party as a FASCIST PARTY and Sand regardless of what you say Fascism is a RIGHT WING MOVEMENT! not left wing, in fact it is believed fascism was born from Communism as a natural middle class reaction to a threat from below. IT believes in NATION (socialism is international) in Germany's case RACIAL SUPERIORITY, the undenying strength of its people, a one party system and new economic system.





Can u give me a link/proof, one without a national movement symbol or white superioty on the front, something a tad bit more respectable, an article perhaps or a website which supports your beliefs without resorting to images of the jewish people as an evil movement...Its the main problem i have swollowing your posts, you argue sensible its just when you send me links of sites with pictures of the KKK and the Jewish religion presented as a snake then i tend to accept the argument less and less. One of the links i found seemed more factual then discrimitive but i'm still researching its background


www.fpp.co.uk

I apologize for sending you to such links. The truth is many revisionist like myself are supporters of other such movements however there have been great revisionists who have been jews, communists, concentration camp inmates, and all other sorts. The most politically correct revisionist site from Ireland is sean hylands www.revisionist.cjb.net mr. hyland is not political but he has to have certain links on his site as they contain essential information. My site www.ireland-awake.tk is somewhat extreme but I am not here to talk about anything else but revisionism and I try to debate revisionism without bringing any of my other beliefs into it. You won’t hear me calling jews kikes or whatever. Some people like yourself are proved they are capable or sensible debate and that’s what I respect whether you are totally against what I am saying or not. The imbeciles that just rant insults are proving themselves to be quite pathetic. They are probably a little angry because they are not getting the attention that they seek.
By the way the snake represents the jewish race, not the religion.

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by Muck

In 1942 there were 2.3 Million Jews in the LARGER Polish towns ALONE . By end 1943 they had been systematically murdered in the Death Camps along with other Jewish populations inluding Dutch and Belgian Jews.

M

This is totally incorrect. There weren’t even 6 million jews in pre war Europe. When the germans in vaded countries the jews by the millions fled to America and Russia.

The original plaque at Auschwitz read “four million people suffered and died at the hands of the nazi murderers between the years 1940 and 1945” does anyone believe that 4 million people were killed at Auschwitz??

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by Meh
This is correct, there is no conclusive proof that lampshades and soap were made out of human bodies, so most mainstream (i.e. non-holocaust denier) historians no longer make such claims.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040604.html

Of course, the Holocaust deniers present this as evidence that the Holocaust never happened at all -- again, their usual tactic of taking a grain of truth and coating it with lies.

This is an argument we use along with all the other stories that were just dropped and forgotten. We have so many arguments. What lies have been ‘coated’ to the truth about the soap and lampshades??

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by rs
It's funny.

It all seemed pretty real when I was there.

The miles of electrified barbed wire.

The rooms full of suitcases, human hair, prosthetic limbs, shoes, childrens clothing.

The train tracks.

The remains of the four gas chambers at birkenau.

The big pit of ash beside the gas chamber remains.

The empty cans of Zyclon B

Its not one bit funny. the camp existed. The gas chambers were erected post war. zyklon b was in every camp, it was an anti typhus agent.

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by Marq
AS POSTED ON THE ORIGINAL THREAD

Holocaust revisionism is legal in Germany. Holocaust denial is not. The reason for this odd distinction is that the scholastic revisionism that questions unproven figures for death-tolls, or specific actions of the German army, is presented in a legitimate, unbiased and academic manner. the problem with Holocaust denial is that it never takes account of facts that clearly prove that genicide of the Jewish people occurred, whereas Holocuast revisionism does. While the actual number of people killed is not known exactly and therefore can be examined academically, that people were killed in a systematic manner is provable beyond all logical and reasonable doubt. A further (and much more dangerous) problem with Holocaust denial is that it is almost impossible to find an academic treatise on the theory that is unbiased. It is always found in conjunction with racism and discrimination. This much is clear from the "sources" linked to above.

To deny that the Holocaust happened is Essentially racist - because it is a theory that deliberately refuses to recognise fact. It is racist becuase it singles out the Jews and brands them liars, despite there being overwhelming evidence to the contrary. There is an ignorant bloody-mindedness inherent in the holding of an opinion such as those expressed above, and it is difficult to reach any conclusion other than this: that a person could only purport these things to be true in the face of such evidence against it if there was an inherent discrimination against Jewish people within this person.

Those that subscribe to these theories are often involved in neo-nazism and/or White Supremacism, and are often actively racist within such organizations. What sets Holocaust revisionism apart from a mere "theory" are the weighty connotations of, and connections to Actual discrimination and incitement to hatred. I think it's quite sad that to illustrate this point I only need point you in the direction of Ireland Awake's website here. Those in doubt should go straight to his "Racist Jokes" page, wherein you'll find a tacit admittance that the holocuast did in fact happen (third and thirteenth 'jokes' on the page). Oh, dichotomous as hell.

Also found this statement on Ireland Awake's website: "Second World War (Some overlap w/Stalin. Includes Sino-Japanese War and Holocaust." Huh? What holocaust?

Marq

Holocaust denial is what anti revisionists call revisionism. Revisionism is illegal in germany. In other words they decide whether you are revisionist or ‘denier’. so in other words you are in trouble for not what you say but for what you do not say! Free speech! Ha!
Revisionism is not solely racist! It doesn’t deliberately deny any fact! Revisionist have more facts that the holocaust lobby! If I wanted to be so petty I could say the holocaust is racist. Racist towards germans for giving them such a horrendous name.
Again you prefer to critsize the revisionists rather than their points. The jokes are jokes, simple as that, they cannot be used as proof of the holocaust I’m afraid!

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by Stephen
Wow, Sean1916 & Ireland Awake, you are both utter retards of the highest order. The fact that pricks like yourselves are fellow Irishmen makes me sad.

Thank you for your mature and educated input! Your post shows you to be the retrd my dear friend! Oh no you’re sad, do I care?

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by Kelter
Hello?

Is there any moderator on this board at all?

The popularity of this tread proves that there is interest in this topic, but most of the posts are just insults directed at Sean and Irelandawake. Its completely ridiculous. I don’t agree with them in any way but the people who keep on calling them names without making any real point should be banned and from the context of this board are far greater villains.

Anyone who posts the likes of



Should be banned for a day straight away as they are just blocking up the board for those who have valid(though sometimes misguided) points to make.:mad:

I couldn’t agree more with this post!! As I have said, they are pathetic attention seeking imbeciles who have no argument. Let them rant, it’s quite entertaining to see them make uneducated fools out of themselves really!

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by daveg
My grandfather had the horrid job of burying some of the victims of the concentration camps after the WW2 ended. Nerds like Sean1916 and Ireland awake really get on my tits. Linking their beliefs from websites. FFS do you believe everything you read on the internet? If you knew anyone who had been there... who had witness the atrocities I'd say fair enough. But to say that 6 million jews didn't die in WW2 is just ****ing dumb and ignorant. Can you show me concrete proof that these atrocities didn't happen?

So what about your grandfather!? Who denied that there were many dead inmates? So we’re nerds now? Ha! Do you believe everything you see on tv, in the cinema and what you read. You don’t seem to realize who controls these mediums. The internet is the only place not controlled by jews, it’s the best place to seek the truth. If you have been reading this thread at all you would have read just some of the arguments we have.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
This doesn’t mean anything, you can’t use this as an argument! I could say that about my local graveyard!

It wasn't mean to be an argument. You must have an impressive local graveyard.

Of course many would say the earth is round. But I've no proof of that either. They could be all making it up. In fact just because I'm paranoid about it doesn't mean that you're not all out to get me.

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by klaz
They have the right to their own opinions. The "facts" that you draw from come from books, or from classes in school/college etc. History is normally written by the victors, and their not accepting the normal "history" can be somewhat admirable. I don't agree with them, but as long as they don't crowd other people with their opinions, its fine with me.



I agree with you. But then theres people who disagree that Stalin didn't kill off more people than Hitler <shrugs>

I agree with nearly all of this.

earwicker

I know I'm going to regret this, but: What is this revisionism in aid of? And don't tell me the "Truth" or anything like that. That abstraction covers up too much. The "Truth" to what end? Why are you all "revising" accepted Holocaust history? What do you gain by such revisionism?

And (as someone else asked), if you find that several hundreds of thousands died, do you see anything wrong with that?

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by Meh
What about all the testimony at the Nuremburg trials? Or all the Holocaust trials since -- many of them even conducted by German courts in Germany? Did the West Germans torture their own countrymen? Why have none of these witnesses come forward to expose this torture? Or what about SS-Untersturmführer Dr. Hans Münch's interview with Swedish television in 1981?I suppose the Swedish cameraman tortured him into saying this?So if these are the standards of proof you require, then what historical events do you believe in? Do you also believe the moon landings were faked? That Colombus never discovered America? That the earth is flat? Are you on the same planet as the rest of us at all? Lie detector tests are not admissible in court.

They were conducted in germany, not by germans but by the enemies of germany. There were many traitors no the nazi regime and many who would say anything they were made to say. Nuremburg was a farce.
Funnily enough I don’t believe in the moon landings, there is too much evidence to say they were a hoax too but they aren’t as important as the holocaust lie. The Vikings were probably the first Europeans in America. The earth is round, can’t argue with that, once you travel around it you will know. Yes I am on the same planet, this poor unfortunate planet that is living under a lie.

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by simu
Wow, I would be "white" according to your classifications but I have yet to notice any of this guilt and self-hatred anywhere, even amongst "white" Germans! Am I blind? Would you like to enlighten me by giving some examples of this?

The reparations are one example. The fact that germans can’t be patriotic or proud of most of their history. Europeans cannot be patriotic or nationalist as it is now racist.

eoinm

nonsence, why the nazis calculated 11 million + in europe
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/wansee-transcript.html

Approximately 11 million Jews will be involved in the final
solution of the European Jewish question, distributed as follows
among the individual countries:

Country Number

A. Germany proper 131,800
Austria 43,700
Eastern territories 420,000
General Government 2,284,000
Bialystok 400,000
Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia 74,200
Estonia - free of Jews -
Latvia 3,500
Lithuania 34,000
Belgium 43,000
Denmark 5,600
France / occupied territory 165,000
unoccupied territory 700,000
Greece 69,600
Netherlands 160,800
Norway 1,300

B. Bulgaria 48,000
England 330,000
Finland 2,300
Ireland 4,000
Italy including Sardinia 58,000
Albania 200
Croatia 40,000
Portugal 3,000
Rumania including Bessarabia 342,000
Sweden 8,000
Switzerland 18,000
Serbia 10,000
Slovakia 88,000
Spain 6,000
Turkey (European portion) 55,500
Hungary 742,800
USSR 5,000,000
Ukraine 2,994,684
White Russia
excluding Bialystok 446,484


Total over 11,000,000


Hoess the commandant of Auschwitz (testamony quoted previously) stated that he supervised the death of 3 million there during his tenure, so who is to say that the other million weren't killed

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
This is totally incorrect. There weren’t even 6 million jews in pre war Europe. When the germans in vaded countries the jews by the millions fled to America and Russia.

The original plaque at Auschwitz read “four million people suffered and died at the hands of the nazi murderers between the years 1940 and 1945” does anyone believe that 4 million people were killed at Auschwitz??

Ireland Awake!

Originally posted by earwicker
I know I'm going to regret this, but: What is this revisionism in aid of? And don't tell me the "Truth" or anything like that. That abstraction covers up too much. The "Truth" to what end? Why are you all "revising" accepted Holocaust history? What do you gain by such revisionism?

And (as someone else asked), if you find that several hundreds of thousands died, do you see anything wrong with that?

i can answer only so many posts a day. i will answer this one and the other you mentioned the next day that i am on. i answer the questions offline and then paste my posts when i can.

eoinm

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
Revisionist have more facts that the holocaust lobby!Again you prefer to critsize the revisionists rather than their points. The jokes are jokes, simple as that, they cannot be used as proof of the holocaust I’m afraid!

quote edited.

you know the one thing that you have not mentioned in the entire thread is a fact..
odd that.

Wrestlemania

Ireland Awake are you a neo-nazi as it seems like that get real.

People like you are the dreggs of society

earwicker

Originally posted by Ireland Awake!
i can answer only so many posts a day. i will answer this one and the other you mentioned the next day that i am on. i answer the questions offline and then paste my posts when i can.

So, can I take it that you will answer these questions?

Sean1916

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
A quote like that should get you banned are u a hitler lover or what, what pure sh1te you talk.


you gonna tell me that my grand father did'nt die in belsen f*ck yourself you evil crettin.

Go and join the far right or a neo-nazi group you muppet

No im not a "hitler lover" or a "nazi" you dont have to be a nazi to realise the jews are a problem, and yes some revisionists are anti jewish would'nt you be anti jewish if you found out they had lied to the whole world.

And I ll ask the Question again if the jews were so innocent why were they kicked out of every country in europe ?

pete

Originally posted by Wrestlemania
Ireland Awake are you a neo-nazi as it seems like that get real.

People like you are the dreggs of society

Neo?

Wrestlemania

Oh yeah Irish Awake get of this thread now you sick piece of flith.

People like you should be hung for all to see..

What are you another gobbels or hitler

Come meet me and a few of my Jewish friends and lets see how hard you are as your sick comments are both evil and inhuman do you worship satan as well.