Spin Fein To Knee Cap Europe?

Mighty_Mouse

You justified it by offering an excuse for it's existance ie the lack of faith republicans have in the PSNI.

An excuse or a reason? Do you not believe there is a reason for punishment beatings taking place?

Thats a textbook example of justification.

Quote me exactly where my textbook example of justification is

it's wrong but some people on the ground take the law into their own hands given the lack of an acceptable police force"

Again quote me where I've said different. by the way. Whether or not a person thinks burning people is completely justified or not. Doesnt mean they cannot offer the reason for it. So your big and bold "IF AND ONLY IF" doesnt make sense IMO

Infiltrate the PSNI and what better opportunity is there to do that than with a 50:50 recruitment strategy

How do you change an RUC controlled PSNI from the inside/from the bottom? Do you not think that if something is wrong with the PSNI (as you admit) that it should be changed before asking nationalists to join? Specifically are you saying that nationalists should join a clearly corrupt and wrong police force with the hope of changing it from the inside?

Furthermore, what better way would there be to píss off hardline unionists than for Gerry adams to join a policing board.

I dont think a peace process should be about doing things in order to piss off the other side, for what its worth.

hardliners in the IRA don't want to budge or take a gamble on policing, it's a pity 'cause I believe they could change it for the better from the inside

Is it ok for the people who have serious problems with the security forces in the North, lived through years of colusion, have the most horrible experience of the RUC and still do not see adequate change to think differently? For what its worth a few hardline republicans aren't discouraging the whole republican community from joining the police force

Continuing vigilantism is very wrong in my view, particularally given it's an extreme form of inequality and inhumanity.

I agree, but the way to change it is ..............yada yada im sure nobody will read this bit anyway

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
I can't find any evidence anywhere of Gerry, Marty or any other member of Sinn Fein condemning republican punishment beatings such as this.

Because as soon as they did the first thing that would be thown back at them would be "What about those bombs in London?" You seem to have no idea about the wide range of republicans these people are speaking for, both conservative and hard core.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
An excuse or a reason? Do you not believe there is a reason for punishment beatings taking place? Quote me exactly where my textbook example of justification is Again quote me where I've said different.

Giving an excuse or a reason is unless you qualify it is a justification.
I presume you have now qualified your post in the above by saying theres no justification for punishment beatings.

Is it ok for the people who have serious problems with the security forces in the North, lived through years of colusion, have the most horrible experience of the RUC and still do not see adequate change to think differently? For what its worth a few hardline republicans aren't discouraging the whole republican community from joining the police force

It's all give and take.
Theres plenty of unionists feeling the same way about the IRA and worse.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by bus77
You seem to have no idea about the wide range of republicans these people are speaking for, both conservative and hard core.

And that 'wide range' have no idea how distant they are from the rest of us.

Mighty_Mouse

I presume you have now qualified your post in the above by saying theres no justification for punishment beatings

Feel free to quote where I said punishment beatings were a good thing or anything like it.

Theres plenty of unionists feeling the same way about the IRA and worse.

FFS!!!Are we still talking about the police force here!!! Unionists aren't asked to be policed by the IRA!!! Can you see how it would be unacceptable for unionists to be policed by the IRA. Would you not prefer to see a situation where the hypothetical police force IRA had been changed unrecognisably in order for unionists to accept them as their new police force.

bus77

Originally posted by ishmael whale
And that 'wide range' have no idea how distant they are from the rest of us.

And the "rest of us" have no idea how close they really are.

The Brigadier

There is corruption in every police force. There is corruption in the Gardai.

Mighty Mouse, how would you feel If some guy came to your house in the night and broke your fingers because you got a parking ticket.

Mighty_Mouse

There is corruption in every police force. There is corruption in the Gardai.

Yes an acceptable level of corruption which I say is tiny. An the public is confident enough with the measures in place to counteract any such corruption. What are you saying by this point? Are you saying there is an acceptable level of corruption in the PSNI?

Mighty Mouse, how would you feel If some guy came to your house in the night and broke your fingers because you got a parking ticket.

I think you've finally lost it!! What are you raving about here man! But I'll answer. I'd be pretty pissed. I certainly would like to be assured that the whole police force wasnt like this. I certainly would like to think that there were mechanisms in place to deal with my conplaint without recrimination. Now if he had played a part in murdering my children, parents, cousins ..etc............if he was still a copper .......if I knew that his action typified a large section of the police force. Well then I might be inclined to stay well clear of the police force and turn to the IRA to carry out my policing.

Sleepy

Originally posted by monument
Bull shit.

Markets when 'left alone from Government intervention' screw people.

As you said, right wing economics dictate that private industry should be ‘left alone’, so how is it the governments fault?

More efficient at making profit for their owners. More efficient at leaving ethical standards behind them. Yeah, that’s true.

How can you state markets screw people when it's nothing more than people that make up the market?

Free market economics dictate that the government don't try to monopolise areas of the economy that they're simply not capable of running. The governments job is to police a market, not try and compete in it.

Ethical business practices are actually good for a companies bottom line. More efficient at making profit for their owners, I won't argue that, who else benefits when a company and it's owners make a profit? We all do, due to increased tax revenues. You have yet to give me one example why we should have a centrally planned economy.

Sleepy

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Yes an acceptable level of corruption which I say is tiny. An the public is confident enough with the measures in place to counteract any such corruption. What are you saying by this point? Are you saying there is an acceptable level of corruption in the PSNI? I think you've finally lost it!! What are you raving about here man! But I'll answer. I'd be pretty pissed. I certainly would like to be assured that the whole police force wasnt like this. I certainly would like to think that there were mechanisms in place to deal with my conplaint without recrimination. Now if he had played a part in murdering my children, parents, cousins ..etc............if he was still a copper .......if I knew that his action typified a large section of the police force. Well then I might be inclined to stay well clear of the police force and turn to the IRA to carry out my policing.

You must have been dropped as a child, or were you the victim of a punishment beating because your head is obviously soft if you'd leave a bunch of murderers, kidnappers, bank robbers, drug dealers and psychopaths to carry out your policing.

The Brigadier

Might Mouse, I am not talking abuot the Gardai coming to your house. I am talking about some group of lowlife thugs who have decided to take the law in there own hands.

This is what is happening in the North. It is a crude example but certainly an accurate one.

Mighty_Mouse

Easy on the flames, Dopey..........erm.sorry I mean Sleepy!

You must have been dropped as a child, or were you the victim of a punishment beating because your head is obviously soft if you'd leave a bunch of murderers, kidnappers, bank robbers, drug dealers and psychopaths to carry out your policing.

They currently are carrying out policing in Northern Ireland. They're call the PSNI. Therefore I assume you can understand the problem

Mighty_Mouse

won't argue that, who else benefits when a company and it's owners make a profit? WE ALL DO, due to increased tax revenues

Yes WE ALL DO!!! Thank god and there was me thinking that the gap between rich and poor was widening!! Phew! Thank god. hopefully someday we can become like those lucky americans who work 100 hour weeks to pay for education and health care. Thank god!!

Also let those north donegal grannys go **** themselves I mean why do people live up there anyway!! Dont they know that loike the private bus service doesnt consider them economically efficient to service. i mean loike why should we pay for there electricity. Why dont they join our privatised grid around Dublin!

Sleepy

Where did I say that Bus services should be taken out of government control, in fact I posted the exact opposite.

The fact that Fianna Fail could mismanage the biggest cash windfall of the state is responsible for the widening poverty gap, not the market system.

You know Mighty_Mouse, you sound like Kitten from Big Brother. Full of ideals and dreams, not one of which seem to be based in sound logical thinking.

Mighty_Mouse

Might Mouse, I am not talking abuot the Gardai coming to your house. I am talking about some group of lowlife thugs who have decided to take the law in there own hands.

Oops! Silly me! I accidently mixed them up with the RUC. Good thing so they dont have a history of attrocities cause we certainly couldnt expect people to accept thugs for a police force

Mighty_Mouse

.

Where did I say that Bus services should be taken out of government control, in fact I posted the exact opposite.

So your not an out and out capitalist? So your nearer to socialist ideals than I though!

The fact that Fianna Fail could mismanage the biggest cash windfall of the state is responsible for the widening poverty gap, not the market system.[/QUOTE
Yes and that mismanaged market system in america too! In fact doesnt mismanagement of a theroetically sound economic principle sound vaguely familar ?

You know Mighty_Mouse, you sound like Kitten from Big Brother. Full of ideals and dreams, not one of which seem to be based in sound logical thinking]

Sorry i missed the last episode!!!!!!!! Could you fill me in whilst also explaining where my ideals are illogical?

ps
You'll have to explain whether people should be allowed to have a certain set of ideals which influece their realistic policies and actions or whether people should only be giuded by reality

earwicker

Again, this discussion might be worthwhile if people just took the time to actually find out about the relations between the IRA and SF instead of the meaningless shibboleths I keep hearing.

At "best" it is a fragmented continuum based on that ineffable called "trust." You only have to look at the text of Morrison's "Armalite and ballot box" strategy document to realize that it was an attempt to keep the IRA on board with the increasingly political strategy of SF under Adams after the 1981 hunger strikes (incidentally, Loyalist paramilitaries were also involved with strikes). In 1986 SF recognized the Dail, and this produced a split, which Adams and company were lucky didn't break the trust of the IRA in SF.

None of this suggests that there is a simple uniform relation between the two organizations. The relation is one governed by "trust" and constant renegotiation. If they are simply "the same thing," then why is there a concern with "keeping them on board"?

The current thuggery has to stop. No question.

But there are a number of problems regarding policing that no amount of crowing about "right" and "wrong" will make go away. There are long-standing problems of trust between certain sections of the Catholic community and the police services. There is also the problem of the IRA having to relinquish the "vigilante/policing" role they played when the RUC and the Army simply left the Catholic ghettoes to their own devices (the famous "no go" areas). Times have changed, and clearly a police force that is deemed to be impartial by all is preferable, but since there is still the very real problem of a split, this whole area needs to be handled very carefully. (This is not to mention: (a) the problematic relations of the IRA and its various newer flavours that are now out there: the so-called Continuity and Real; nor (b) the various acts of thuggery perpetrated by the Unionist-Loyalist paramiliatry gangs on each other.) There are also the fears of the Unionist-Loyalist community that have to do with their pre-eminent position being eroded by various forces that need to be worked out (this can be seen as a class problem).

Lip service invoking moral absolutes cannot solve any of these issues because as it stands in the North there are no moral absolutes. Before it gets to that comfy point it has to be about adequate representational politics. This means that sectarian politics have not gone away. This is the troubling terrain people have to work on.

But one thing is clear: these problems can only be solved through political dialogue, which has stalled over an issue that was accepted in the GFA (by all except Paisley's DUP), but has since been deemed by the UUP as inadequate. The longer dialogue is stalled, the wider the space for this type of thuggery will get.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Feel free to quote where I said punishment beatings were a good thing or anything like it.

LoL,I've gone one better and quoted you as saying theres no justification for punishment beatings here I respect your opinion that theres no justification for punishment beatings

FFS!!!Are we still talking about the police force here!!! Unionists aren't asked to be policed by the IRA!!!

heh!
They were being policed by them for long enough via bombs, shootings and killings...
Whats the difference between the hurt on one side and the hurt on the other...
Are they not at least equal in this " Ireland of equals " of yours??

monument

Originally posted by Sleepy
How can you state markets screw people when it's nothing more than people that make up the market?

So people won’t screw other people?

Markets are not made of nothing more then people; they’re made of companies, among other thing. Some of which have the sole aim of maximum profit, no matter what the cost. (I’m not saying all have this aim)

AIB for example, when “left alone” they screwed people .

Originally posted by Sleepy
Free market economics dictate that the government don't try to monopolise areas of the economy that they're simply not capable of running. The governments job is to police a market, not try and compete in it.

Like Eircom or maybe British Rail? The private sector has really run them better.

(Actually the Eircom f**k up is really a fine example of maximising profits, and getting out – But it’s now funny that comreg has so much power over them – not very “free market”)

Originally posted by Sleepy
Ethical business practices are actually good for a companies bottom line. More efficient at making profit for their owners, I won't argue that, who else benefits when a company and it's owners make a profit? We all do, due to increased tax revenues.

No, they are not. A large percentage of the largest companies in the world have been charged for, or accused of, trying to run monopolies, over pricing, pricing fixing (cartels) etc…

Originally posted by Sleepy
You have yet to give me one example why we should have a centrally planned economy.

If you like it or not, we have a centrally planned/controlled economy.

However I have said that I would prefer a more left wing “system that actually cares about people”… “(whether it’s the homeless in Dublin, or the growing amount of poverty and hunger stricken regulars at the church soup kitchens in the US)”.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
There is corruption in every police force. There is corruption in the Gardai.

Mighty Mouse, how would you feel If some guy came to your house in the night and broke your fingers because you got a parking ticket.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
What are you raving about here man! But I'll answer. I'd be pretty pissed. I certainly would like to be assured that the whole police force wasnt like this. I certainly would like to think that there were mechanisms in place to deal with my conplaint without recrimination.

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Might Mouse, I am not talking abuot the Gardai coming to your house. I am talking about some group of lowlife thugs who have decided to take the law in there own hands.

LMAO!! ahhh God

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

Originally posted by daveirl
The DUP aren't the political wing of anybody. They are a party of bigots but terorrists they ain't.

Thing is Sinn Féin don't exactly respect the Gardaí or the Army for that matter.

SF and DUP have the same policy with regards to the future of Northern Ireland - they both agree that as long as the people of Northern Ireland want it - the 6 countries remain part of the UK.

SF accepts partition. They sit on a partionionist assembly in NI. They take they seats in a 26 country dail and have offices at Westminister.

Mighty_Mouse

SF accepts partition.

Whats the point in this statement? Sure we know dam well that Sinn Fein, SDLP and even your beloved Fianna Fail are republican 32 county parties.

LoL,I've gone one better and quoted you as saying theres no justification for punishment beatings here I respect your opinion that theres no justification for punishment beatings

Again. The point here is you accused me of justifying punishment beatings. Where? You don't have to answer.
What is a justification anyways? "something is compltetely unacceptable", "a democratic society shouldnt have them"? At the end of the day the reasons behind punishment beatings and sloving the need for them felt by a large section of northern irish society is whats important IMO

They were being policed by them for long enough via bombs, shootings and killings...

They were being policed? Wow! I wouldnt of thought that the unionists had to turn to the IRA to report crime, help them maintain law and order in their lives etc Do you see the difference now? This isnt about hurt on both sides .................its about provided one of the most essential mechanisms of a democratic and civil society.......ie a police force.

At the moment the nationalists part of Northern Ireland feels like it doesnt have one yet. Is this not a problem?

Are they not at least equal in this " Ireland of equals " of yours??

Did I say different? Whats your point in relation to providing a police force all of northen society can turn to?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
The point here is you accused me of justifying punishment beatings. Where? You don't have to answer.
What is a justification anyways? "something is compltetely unacceptable", "a democratic society shouldnt have them"? At the end of the day the reasons behind punishment beatings and sloving the need for them felt by a large section of northern irish society is whats important IMO

Wow,at least you took a couple of days to come up with that I made you think about it ( or possibly consult other spinners LoL )
The point is you accepted that you have again accepted that there is no justification for the punishment beatings.

They were being policed? Wow! I wouldnt of thought that the unionists had to turn to the IRA to report crime, help them maintain law and order in their lives etc

Well, unionists were being policed by the IRA.
They sentenced many of them to death,judge,jury and executioner with no public trial.
That went on long enough which was my point.
Lets do the maths,how many nationalists did the RUC kill( as opposed to put in prison ) versus how many unionists did the IRA kill?
See?
You get a lawyer when the police accuse you of something,what provisions do Republican punishment beaters have for those that they accuse in this Ireland of equals?
Wheres the equality of human rights?

Whats your point in relation to providing a police force all of northen society can turn to?

I'd have thought my point was obvious, but I'll spell it out again for you.
How do punishment beatings with the victim having no right at all to a fair hearing or trial fit in with the Ireland of equals platform?
after all it's Republican policing...
Which set of accused has their human rights more violated?
The person arrested by the PSNI or the person who is left to burn as in the aforementioned case?

Could you answer me that then?

Cork

At the end of the day the reasons behind punishment beatings and sloving the need for them felt by a large section of northern irish society is whats important IMO

SF can harp on about human rights and the IRA can have its kangaroo courts.

monument

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Wow,at least you took a couple of days to come up with that

I was under the impression he was saying what he said in his last post all along, and that the last post was just explaing it more clarelly.

Originally posted by Rock Climber
You get a lawyer when the police accuse you of something,what provisions do Republican punishment beaters have for those that they accuse in this Ireland of equals? Wheres the equality of human rights?

Are you still talking about NI?

Originally posted by Rock Climber
How do punishment beatings with the victim having no right at all to a fair hearing or trial fit in with the Ireland of equals platform?

They don't.

violenza

Originally posted by bus77

She's lovely.

Sorry guys...on a more serious note anybody with impure toughts about mary lou deserves bannage(postcapping )

MF'er

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Rock Climber
They sentenced many of them to death,judge,jury and executioner with no public trial.

God, that sounds awfully familiar. Where have I read that before? Hmmm.. oh, that's right, it's how the British dealt with rebels or people suspected of being rebels. Many innocent people were sentenced to death in a matter of seconds (i.e. Bloody Sunday I and II).

And the whole "punishment beatings" argument... the RUC gave out punishment beatings and torture, and most likely still do. You get what you give. I doubt the IRA have given "punishment beatings" without a reason. I'm not saying you can justify it, but I believe it's slightly more justifiable than what the RUC and Brit army have done, because I'm pretty sure that the people "punished" by the IRA did something worse than marching for civil rights or being involved with Republican leaders.

Just my opinion, really.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
God, that sounds awfully familiar. Where have I read that before? Hmmm.. oh, that's right, it's how the British dealt with rebels or people suspected of being rebels. Many innocent people were sentenced to death in a matter of seconds (i.e. Bloody Sunday I and II).

Two wrongs make a right do they?
You could do well to answer the question too,how many did the IRA murder and maim versus what even the British Army did there and the RUC?

the RUC gave out punishment beatings and torture, and most likely still do. You get what you give. I doubt the IRA have given "punishment beatings" without a reason.

Nuala O' Loan has massive powers,she can walk into any PSNI station without notice and take whatever documents she wants.
I've no doubt that some abuse goes on in PSNI stations,but only now probably on a par with the Gardaí or the GB police.
Now If I'm beaten to a pickle in a PSNI station, you can be pretty sure I,my relatives and friends will be onto Nuala O' Loans office straight away.
Whats the comeback with Republican beatings?
Who does one sue?
And wheres the equal rights?

monument

Originally posted by Rock Climber
I've no doubt that some abuse goes on in PSNI stations,but only now probably on a par with the Gardaí or the GB police.

Two wrongs make a right do they?

bertiebowl

Now If I'm beaten to a pickle in a PSNI station, you can be pretty sure I,my relatives and friends will be onto Nuala O' Loans office straight away.
Whats the comeback with Republican beatings?
Who does one sue?
And wheres the equal rights?

That's the reason I will never vote for Spin Fein while the leadership maintains links with the provos........human rights abuses.... today some poor sod up in N.I who's offended one of the Godfathers for some unknown reason......tomorrow - well who knows?

The Brigadier

Originally posted by bertiebowl
That's the reason I will never vote for Spin Fein while the leadership maintains links with the provos........human rights abuses.... today some poor sod up in N.I who's offended one of the Godfathers for some unknown reason......tomorrow - well who knows?

Well we all know of the Women on the Joe Duffy show who when asked why she was voting for Sinn Fein told a story of how some trouble makers were given "a good talking to" by members of Sinn Fein.

Normal people don't want this sort of vigilanty activity creeping in. Why can't Sinn Fein carry on like normal law abiding people? Why do they have the arrogance to consider themselves above the law?

The Brigadier

Sinn Fein - the party of contempt.

Contempt for the laws of Ireland. Contemp for the constitution of Ireland. Contempt for the people of Ireland.

Vote for Sinn Fein and show your contempt for Ireland. Vote for Sinn Fein and show your contempt for the people who died founding the republic of Ireland.

Mighty_Mouse

I actually replied earlier but it doesnt seem to of materialised

Wow,at least you took a couple of days to come up with that I made you think about it ( or possibly consult other spinners LoL )

Oh no! I've not been on internet space for a whole two days!!

The point is you accepted that you have again accepted that there is no justification for the punishment beatings.

I would think the point here is that the reasons why punishment beatings happen and removing those reasons is whats important, Would you not agree?

Well, unionists were being policed by the IRA.

I'm sorry they werent. I'm afraid what youve gone and done is confused the RUC/PSNI with the IRA. Dont worry its an easy enough mistake given their history.

Lets do the maths,how many nationalists did the RUC kill( as opposed to put in prison ) versus how many unionists did the IRA kill?

Again. Do you think that the POLICE FORCE OF THE STATE should be murdering one segment of the community? Can you see the difference between the role of the police and the IRA here?

The person arrested by the PSNI or the person who is left to burn as in the aforementioned case

What about the person who has their familty slaughtered by RUC collusion versus the person who got burned? oooh ! would you look at that ....a toughie. If you wanna continue to compare hurt with hurt we;ll be here for at least 30 years.

The point of this discussion is that nationalists dont accept the RUC with good reason. Therefore there needs to be more change in the police.
(If there needs to be more change then theres something wrong in the first place)

I've no doubt that some abuse goes on in PSNI stations,but only now probably on a par with the Gardaí or the GB police

As much as I admire your fate in Nuala do you not think that the police force should be scrapped and completely reborn?

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by bertiebowl
That's the reason I will never vote for Spin Fein while the leadership maintains links with the provos........human rights abuses.... today some poor sod up in N.I who's offended one of the Godfathers for some unknown reason......tomorrow - well who knows?

What kind of "proof" do you actually want?? If Gerry Adams tomorrow severed links with the IRA, you still wouldn't be convinced. and you'd probably launch into yet another rant about how "it's just an act for votes".

"Spin" Féin? Can't you think of something more original? Honestly, "Spin" and "spinners" makes it sound like you can't spell.

What if I started calling you "bertiebra"? Would you be happy? I don't think so.

Call them by their proper name and stop being so immature.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Two wrongs make a right do they?
You could do well to answer the question too,how many did the IRA murder and maim versus what even the British Army did there and the RUC?

If the British army shot a relative of yours while they were in the north campaigning for civil rights, what would you do, knowing that filing a complaint or sueing would be as effective as talking to a wall. I know I would hunt down the soldier and kill him myself. Scumbags.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I actually replied earlier but it doesnt seem to of materialised
Oh no! I've not been on internet space for a whole two days!!

Now now, you were around alright replying to other threads...
Admit it, you had to put more thought into the reply

However..... when you said

I'm sorry they werent. I'm afraid what youve gone and done is confused the RUC/PSNI with the IRA. Dont worry its an easy enough mistake given their history.

You knew full well that I was talking about the IRA policing unionists in the sense that they shot, murdered and maimed them....
Thats what I meant by unionists being policed by the IRA long enough,the IRA were the judge , jury and executioner.
There was no other appeal system for their victims.
I know there were cases where the British army and the RUC did the same but in most cases at least there was some due process.
There was no due process with the IRA, and whats worse, they killed and maimed many, many thousands.
How many did the British Army and the RUC kill and maim?

Again. Do you think that the POLICE FORCE OF THE STATE should be murdering one segment of the community?

yes I see a difference in the numbers and the extent... as above.

What about the person who has their familty slaughtered by RUC collusion versus the person who got burned? oooh ! would you look at that ....a toughie. If you wanna continue to compare hurt with hurt we;ll be here for at least 30 years.

Again what were the numbers of people murdered and maimed by the RUC versus the numbers killed by Republicans?
If we had a euro coin for each set, who would have more coins by a long shot ( pun un intended actually )

posted by Dave-[RLD]-
If the British army shot a relative of yours while they were in the north campaigning for civil rights, what would you do, knowing that filing a complaint or sueing would be as effective as talking to a wall. I know I would hunt down the soldier and kill him myself. Scumbags.

Point is, this is 2004, there is a huge staff in the police ombudsmans office, with fiercesome powers.
Nuala O'Loan isn't afraid of the ex RUC and showeed that with her stringent criticism of the Omagh investigation.
As regards the British Army, again this is 2004 and they are rarely seen up north.
I remember as a kid when the place was crawling with them.
Plus if they were to do anything daft now, they get, their actions analyised by the media in a not very sympathetic manner eg Iraq.

monument

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Nuala O'Loan isn't afraid of the ex RUC and showeed that with her stringent criticism of the Omagh investigation.

Thank god she is there to give them "criticism".

Originally posted by Rock Climber
As regards the British Army, again this is 2004 and they are rarely seen up north.

They're too busy crossing into the Republic. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Plus if they were to do anything daft now, they get, their actions analyised by the media in a not very sympathetic manner eg Iraq.

Like how the media "analyised" that the Irish police could have stopped Omagh?


Anyway, as has been said more then once the problem is policing, and it's not going to go away until the problem is addressed - so far what has happed to the North’s police is little more then a re-brand, an unsuccessful one at that.

Mighty_Mouse

Rockclimber it might suit to read something and try and address valid points.

Now now, you were around alright replying to other threads...

do you even listen to your self. I wasnt online friday evening or saturday.

You knew full well that I was talking about the IRA policing unionists in the sense that they shot, murdered and maimed them....

I think its a little silly but hypothetically if the IRA policed the unionists............do you think that the police force of ALL the state should be focusing and "policing" nationalists in the same manner?

I know there were cases where the British army and the RUC did the same but in most cases at least there was some due process.

Oooh! Now this I like!!:eek: mmmm let me think due process.........Pat Finuicane, Bloody Sunday, Rosemary Nelson, .............I can start stacking your euros for you if you like but I personally think its pointless. Theres an obvious problem with the police force. If you want to stop punishment beatings an acceptable alternative has to be provided.So for the millionth time whats you opinion on this?

ps your still comparing the POLICE force of the STATE with the same standards as the IRA and saying theyre better!!!!!!!! should we be expecting them not to be?

How many did the British Army and the RUC kill and maim?

You obviously don't have a clue. Do a google and start spouting figures if you like but again I'm not gonna start comparing hurt with hurt.

there is a huge staff in the police ombudsmans office, with fiercesome powers

Yes fiercesome! In coopperation with the non-secatarian non-political "evidence interfering" chief bigot Hugh Orde

As regards the British Army, again this is 2004 and they are rarely seen up north

Yes kind of them to pull their troops out since the 10 year cease fire!Fantastice movement by the british on demilitarisation really

Plus if they were to do anything daft now, they get, their actions analyised by the media in a not very sympathetic manner

Your relying on the media to stop police battery etc ?

ps
you may do well to read up on Nualas powers

pps
Ive engaged you in every single point youve put to me. I'm not inclined to rush here to post with someone who doesnt do the same

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Rockclimber it might suit to read something and try and address valid points.

heh,practice what you preach
You keep sidestepping my point on the IRA policing the unionists as judge jury and executioner and so far have refused to give me the numbers that the British Army and the RUC killed in NI versus what the IRA killed and maimed.
Thousands by the IRA versus how many by the British Army and the RUC?
And then theres the disappeared...
Know anything about the guys that butchered Mrs MCConville do ya? and then didn't bother letting the family know where they dumped her body for decades...

In December 1972, suddenly and without any reason, she disappeared from the face of the earth. One widely and repeatedly given explanation for her disappearance was that she had angered the IRA by comforting a seriously wounded British soldier who had been shot by a sniper outside her front door.

Not a good background to be preaching an Ireland of equals is it?
How equal was Mrs McConville?

You obviously don't have a clue. Do a google and start spouting figures if you like but again I'm not gonna start comparing hurt with hurt.

Yeah but you want an Ireland of equals don't ya, then surely one hurt, ie that of unionists that were murdered is just as equal to that of Republicans.

you may do well to read up on Nualas powers

Certainly.
Here You read up on them aswell
they are far,far better than whats available in the south.

Mighty_Mouse

Ok lets try this a different way. Below find some information with regard to republican problems in policing and problems republicans feel need to be resolved.


read the first paragraph for Nualas huge powers!http://www.sinnfein.ie/pdf/SB_Untouchable.pdf

Read for what the new vision of policing was ment to be in the GFA:
http://www.sinnfein.ie/pdf/PattenReport.pdf

Read for what republicans see as the problems still existing in policing

Policing

At the core of our approach to policing has been the imperative of ensuring that the police service is democratically accountable and representative.

We have made steady progress in redressing this position, building on the advances made in Weston Park 18 months ago.

On the issue of democratic accountability we have, in our most recent discussions, secured commitments to new legislation. That is, in addition to the raft of legislative amendments we secured at Weston Park, we have additional amendments which:

-requires the British Secretary of State to consult with the Ombudsman, the Human Rights Commission and the Equality Commission on the key areas of policing objectives
-requires the same consultation process in respect of Codes of Practice over which the British Secretary of State formally had a blank cheque, and
-ensures that the Belfast sub-groups are placed on a par with the District Policing Partnerships.
These are important additional and reinforcing aspects of accountability; particularly in respect of the Belfast sub-groups where areas like West Belfast will be a pivotal testing ground in any new beginning.

Other areas that have been addressed are operational or in the implementation field, but are equally important. They range from demilitarisation of the PSNI, to the defortification of police stations and to the objective of an unarmed police service, and to an accelerated process to bring this about.

We have also made progress in terms of creating a human rights ethos.

Other issues which we continue to press the British on, and on which we hope to see early movement, are the future role and power of the Special Branch, the issue of plastic bullets and the achievement of representativeness. We have made it clear that the Special Branch abuses which took place under the cover of the Walker procedures and the force within a force created and perpetuated by lengthy or indefinite tenure of Special Branch positions can be no part of a new beginning to policing,

The British government has also agreed in principle to the transfer of power on policing and justice from the British Government to the Assembly and the all-Ireland Ministerial Council. What we are seeking now is that this is firmed up in terms of specific proposals and a defined time frame.

The refusal to co-operate with a range of investigations into state and state-sponsored violence is symptomatic of a culture of concealment that infects the entire British system.

They have obstructed the Saville Inquiry into the events of Bloody Sunday, the Barron Inquiry into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings; they have refused to initiate full and independent inquiries into a number of controversial killings, and vital inquest evidence in respect of numerous state and state-linked killings is being withheld by the PSNI and the Chief Constable Hugh Orde.

The British government has also refused to publish the Cory Report. 15 years after the death of Pat Finucane his family is still waiting for the truth.

Collusion - the control, resourcing and direction of unionist death squads by British state agencies - was sanctioned at the highest level of the British government.

It resulted in the deaths of hundreds of republicans, nationalists and Catholics.

Twenty members of Sinn Fein, including elected Sinn Féin representatives, our family members and friends were killed in a vicious campaign of political terror.

This is a human rights scandal, which anywhere else would have brought down governments.

The murder of citizens through collusion with Unionist death squads has been and remains British state policy in Ireland. The apparatus is still in existence.

.

so far have refused to give me the numbers that the British Army and the RUC killed in NI versus what the IRA killed and maimed

sidestepping? Again if you want the numbers do a google cos im not gonna waste time comparing murder with murder. What more do you want? I'm not here to fecking breast-feed you with information!!

You keep sidestepping my point on the IRA policing the unionists as judge jury and executioner

How has this been sidestepped?Im sorry i dont see it as the IRA policing the unionist community but ive engaged you all the same.My former answer:

but hypothetically if the IRA policed the unionists............do you think that the police force of ALL the state should be focusing and "policing" nationalists in the same manner

Know anything about the guys that butchered

Whats you point in this! Do you wanna start talking about shankill butchers or something? lets play a game you name an attrocity , ill name one ..................:rolleyes: fantastic stuff!

Not a good background to be preaching an Ireland of equals is it?

Provides a greater understanding of the tortures of inequality if you ask me

The Brigadier

Mighty Mouse can you try and link to something other than Sinn Fein's website when trying to defend them.

Mighty_Mouse

Sinn Fein didnt write the Patten Report, Brigadier

The Brigadier

Well then you shouldn't have ANY problems linking to an objective report.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

sidestepping? Again if you want the numbers do a google cos im not gonna waste time comparing murder with murder. What more do you want? I'm not here to fecking breast-feed you with information!! How has this been sidestepped?Im sorry i dont see it as the IRA policing the unionist community but ive engaged you all the same.My former answer: Whats you point in this! Do you wanna start talking about shankill butchers or something? lets play a game you name an attrocity , ill name one ..................:rolleyes: fantastic stuff! Provides a greater understanding of the tortures of inequality if you ask me

Hmmm,
You want me to do a google to see if the IRA killed and maimed more in NI than the British army and the RUC.
We both know we don't have to do that.
The IRA killings and maimings are in the thousands.
The RUC/British arm killings and maimings don't even appear on the radar in comparison.
But then it suits you to ignore that...
Which is very ironic, see'ing as it is you who are saying that the IRA were the "police" that nationalists turned to...
Yes and the IRA wearing this hat killed and maimed multitudes of unionists...
Now where was the human rights there?
You can mention loyalist murders all you like but thats not what we were talking about at all.
You were holding the IRA up as a paragon of righteous justice to which nationalists could run to as they didn't trust the RUC...
Or maybe you are not... you tell me?

Whats you point in this! Do you wanna start talking about shankill butchers or something? lets play a game you name an attrocity , ill name one .................. fantastic stuff!

Well you see,I look on that type of an answer as you sidestepping difficult questions.
We are talking about the IRA, operating as a police force versus the established police force.
It would be a bit rich to be attacking the latter and holding the former ( the IRA ) up as virtues of justice or as any example of justice( to be frank ) given their quite awfull record of human rights especially towards unionists.

Combine that with scenes of SF supporters at count centres shouting "up the IRA" at the recent elections in the 26 counties and where then do we stand in this Ireland of equals of yours?

Mighty_Mouse

Well then you shouldn't have ANY problems linking to an objective report.

You wont read an independant report because its on a Sinn Fein site?

Rockclimber I'm still struggling to follow your argument here. Are you saying that because you consider the IRA to be a police force that both the IRA and the RUC should be judged as equals in terms of human rights???

I think your missing the point here. Are you still argueing that the police force of all the STATE should be judged by the moral principles of one sectarian segment of the population.

I'm gonna give up on this one because I just dont agree with what you've been saying for several reasons. As for sidestepping ........what exactly do you want me to say to request for numbers of innocents murdered, catholics murdered versus protestants etc etc at the end of the day the RUC acted(acts?) as a sectarian british force supporting the rights of unionists. If you want to get into exact figures of those murdered do we include all UVF UDA kills with direct RUC kills, (collusion??)

Again i really think this type of exercse is pointless.You have still yet to answer any questions with regard to the unacceptability of the RUC/PSNI to the nationalists population and how you would fix it (in order to solve punishment beatings problem)

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

Rockclimber I'm still struggling to follow your argument here. Are you saying that because you consider the IRA to be a police force that both the IRA and the RUC should be judged as equals in terms of human rights???

You are clearly saying that the IRA are a police force not me.
I've never said they are.
At most I might have said they act like they are but without any regulation whatsoever.
They are in fact a law onto themselves and woe betide anyone either now or in the past who wishes to prove their innocence,or avail of some semblence of due process when faced with IRA justice.
What I'm saying is thats no paragon of an example to be flying in front of what is described as a non nationalist friendly PSNI.
There seems to be plenty of talk here of reasons for this and reasons for that but little willingness to work with what seems to be(compared with what was available , say 10 years ago) a perfectly workable if not all one sided mechanism to improve things.

As for sidestepping ........at the end of the day the RUC acted(acts?) as a sectarian british force supporting the rights of unionists.

Ok you seem to advocate the sacking of the entire PSNI based on their Religion, as thats probably a good indication of their stance on the Union and susequent bias towards nationalists.
Am I correct in reading that?
You want the 50:50 recruitment to start from scratch?
In other words you want, the current unionist majority to watch the (blatant in their eyes) dismantling of the police force because theres not enough catholics in it?
Do you not think, given that you have to live side by side with this large chunk of unionism , that the more subtle approach of 50:50 recruitment that currently exists would be the more plausible route to go?

Mighty_Mouse

You are clearly saying that the IRA are a police force not me.

Yes the IRA police their own areas through punishment beatings. This is different to policing unionists who have the RUC at their disposal.

At most I might have said they act like they are but without any regulation whatsoever.
They are in fact a law onto themselves and woe betide anyone either now or in the past who wishes to prove their innocence,or avail of some semblence of due process when faced with IRA justice..

Of coarse the IRA are illegal!! Im sure their is some form of due process but I couldnt even guess at it. But whats your point apart from your dislike of the IRA.. Do you think its ok for the official police force of the whole of the north of Ireland to operate under similar processes? Are you saying that because the IRA murders and executes people the illegal, sectarian practices of the RUC are justified or acceptable. Again, at the risk of repeating myself.........what has anything that the IRA does or does not do got to do with a police force which is non-sectarian, fair and equal and their to protect the rights of all northern Irish citizens?

perfectly workable if not all one sided mechanism to improve things

is you description of an all "one-sided" police force in your opinion workable?I dont think so

Ok you seem to advocate the sacking of the entire PSNI based on their Religion, as thats probably a good indication of their stance on the Union and susequent bias towards nationalists.

I dont think that enticing nationalists into a culturaly sectarian, human rights abusing, collusion police force is significant enough change to be honest.

You want the 50:50 recruitment to start from scratch?

Dont know what you mean from scratch but I think that it would be for the benefit of all the norths citizens for a new police force to accompany a new society and a new start for the north.

the current unionist majority to watch the (blatant in their eyes) dismantling of the police force because theres not enough catholics in it?

What exactly would be wrong with a competely fair and equaly police force. Surely you dont have a problem with that?

that the more subtle approach of 50:50 recruitment that currently exists would be the more plausible route to go?

No because its not a "route" in my opinion. Its a dead end. Are you assuming that because nationalists are recruited that the police force will lose its bigoted culture? A complete culturaly bias will prevent any significant changes because the PSNI is essentially the RUC from the top down.

Mighty_Mouse

Well then you shouldn't have ANY problems linking to an objective report

http://www.belfast.org.uk/report.htm

How lazy are you brigidiar or are you unable to use search engines yet?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Yes the IRA police their own areas through punishment beatings. This is different to policing unionists who have the RUC at their disposal.

And yes they policed unionists against the unionists will and acting as judge and jury shooting killing and maiming them.
For the second or third time thats the IRA policing unionists against their will.

Of coarse the IRA are illegal!! Im sure their is some form of due process but I couldnt even guess at it.

Due process my eye!! heres the definition: due process - (law) the administration of justice according to established rules and principles; based on the principle that a person cannot be deprived of life or liberty or property without appropriate legal procedures and safeguards

Again, at the risk of repeating myself.........what has anything that the IRA does or does not do got to do with a police force which is non-sectarian, fair and equal and their to protect the rights of all northern Irish citizens?

Answer: It provides a very bad example and has its pot arse very black when giving out about the dirty
kettle

I dont think that enticing nationalists into a culturaly sectarian, human rights abusing, collusion police force is significant enough change to be honest.

And

No because its not a "route" in my opinion. Its a dead end. Are you assuming that because nationalists are recruited that the police force will lose its bigoted culture? A complete culturaly bias will prevent any significant changes because the PSNI is essentially the RUC from the top down.

I see so you do want to put the shoe on the other foot and trample on the million or so unionists in the north.
Thats a great example of comprimise I don't think!
It's an extremist one sided approach akin to the extremism on the opposite side.
You can dream on, but short of total ethnic cleansing it won't happen.
Makes me feel sad to be honest that people hold such extremist views.