Spin Fein To Knee Cap Europe?

Mighty_Mouse

I don't see where it even says republican, never-mind IRA?

bertiebowl

mmmmmmmm........look at the address at which this human rights violation happened.

As the guinness ad says - "draw your own conclusions"........

The Brigadier

The Shinners on here won't be happy unless an IRA member anounces on TV "Fair cop, it was me"

They will probably say the attack is part of a smear campaign by the loyalists...

What possible reason could there be for this attack?

Mighty_Mouse

look at the address at which this human rights violation happened.

The Shinners on here won't be happy unless an IRA member anounces on TV "Fair cop, it was me"

ye have to admit it's hardly conslusive stuff!!! But if ye were to argue that the IRA have carried out punishment beatings and that ye believe such beatings are not acceptable etc etc etc etc we could have a discussion. Instead of clinging to bits of breaking news !

bus77

Of course it was republican related. But what exactly do you expect the main IRA leadership to do about every republican/criminal/hard case in the north? Tell them to stop and they will?
After God know how many years you expect all this stuff to disapear when the IRA calls a ceasefire!!??

Hairy Homer

Yumi Yumi Yumi

Sleepy

Originally posted by monument
Economic textbooks based on right wing economics?

But, yeah, it’s nice to know a system that actually cares about people is illogical (whether it’s the homeless in Dublin, or the growing amount of poverty and hunger stricken regulars at the church soup kitchens in the US).

You told me who would tell me it is an ‘illogical and unworkable solution’, why didn’t you enlighten me, and tell me why?

Left wing politics are based on the basic premise of taking "from each according to his abilities," and giving "to each according to his needs". However, this has never worked in practice because human beings are not as honest as this naieve theory suggests. People will understate their abilities and over-state their needs in order to live an easier life. You end up with a society where the majority of people are under-achievers because they don't have the incentice to achieve their potential (the lack of a profit motive).

Now don't get me wrong: we do need social welfare systems and government controlled education, healthcare, law enforcement etc. This is just common sense but it has been proven time and time again that private industry is more efficient than civil-service run industry. Centrally planned government just doesn't work. Markets do (when they're left alone from Government intervention). Right Wing Economics have given this country massive financial benefits. True, these haven't been dispersed fairly but that's a failure of an incompetent government, not the economic system.

Originally posted by bus77
Of course it was republican related. But what exactly do you expect the main IRA leadership to do about every republican/criminal/hard case in the north? Tell them to stop and they will?
After God know how many years you expect all this stuff to disapear when the IRA calls a ceasefire!!??

Well, they are the leadership. And, if ordering their subordinates to stop didn't work I think they have a few more effective means of stopping people from doing things. I certainly wouldn't shed any tears if an IRA "hard case" (as you put it) were to "disappear". If all someone wants is violence for the sake of it, put 'em down.

Sleepy

This essay, first published in 1951 as "A Lesson in Socialism, "

As a teacher, I found that the socialist-communist idea of taking "from each according to his abilities," and giving "to each according to his needs" was generally accepted without question by most students. In an effort to explain the fallacy in this theory, I sometimes tried this approach:

When one of the brighter or harder-working students made a grade of 95 on a test, I suggested that I take away 20 points and give them to a student who had made only 55 points on his test. Thus each would contribute according to his abilities and - since both would have a passing mark - each would receive according to his needs. After I juggled the grades of all the other students in this fashion, the result was usually a "common ownership" grade of between 75 and 80-the minimum needed for passing, or for survival. Then I speculated with the students as to the probable results if I actually used the socialistic theory for grading papers.

First, the highly productive students and they are always a minority in school as well as in life - would soon lose all incentive for producing. Why strive to make a high grade if part of it is taken from you by "authority" and given to someone else?

Second, the less productive students-a majority in school as elsewhere-would, for a time, be relieved of the necessity to study or to produce. This socialist-communist system would continue until the high producers had sunk - or had been driven down - to the level of the low producers. At that point, in order for anyone to survive, the "authority " would have no alternative but to begin a system of compulsory labor and punishments against even the low producers. They, of course, would then complain bitterly, but without understanding.

Finally I returned the discussion to the ideas of freedom and enterprise-the market economy-where each person has freedom of choice and is responsible for his own decisions and welfare.

Gratifyingly enough, most of my students then understood what I meant when I explained that socialism - even in a democracy - would eventually result in a living death for all except the "authorities" and a few of their favorite lackeys.

- Thomas Shelley

ishmael whale

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
But if ye were to argue that the IRA have carried out punishment beatings and that ye believe such beatings are not acceptable etc etc etc etc we could have a discussion.

I'm not starting such a discussion, but I have to admit to being curious as to whether it would consist of you denying at every turn that the IRA had ever carried out a punishment beating, or at least not for years and its all media speculation (and so forth.)

bus77

Originally posted by Sleepy
Well, they are the leadership. And, if ordering their subordinates to stop didn't work I think they have a few more effective means of stopping people from doing things. I certainly wouldn't shed any tears if an IRA "hard case" (as you put it) were to "disappear". If all someone wants is violence for the sake of it, put 'em down.

That type of thing dosnt work sleepy, same with old style socialism as you pointed out.

Mighty_Mouse

I'm not starting such a discussion, but I have to admit to being curious as to whether it would consist of you denying at every turn that the IRA had ever carried out a punishment beating, or at least not for years and its all media speculation (and so forth.)

I'm not particularly interested either as its been said several times in here already. The basic problem is policing and until that issue is resolved a large section of republican community will continue to be unable to turn to the police force

The Brigadier

That attitude disgusts me and all people who know right from wrong.

Sinn Fein exert pressure on the Catholic community to prevent them joing the PSNI.

You cannot excuse these punishment beatings in any way.

What sort of sicko thinks it is ok to burn people alive for any reason?

Mighty_Mouse

What sort of sicko thinks it is ok to burn people alive for any reason?

I havent said anything about it being right or wrong. I've simply said that you can be as apalled as you like but the problem will remain. To adress the problem of punishment beatings there is a need to provide a police force which is acceptable to all of NI society.Currently an acceptable police force doesnt exist

sceptre

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I'm not particularly interested either as its been said several times in here already. The basic problem is policing and until that issue is resolved a large section of republican community will continue to be unable to turn to the police force

You might be able to go as far as "unwilling". You can't do "unable".

monument

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Sinn Fein exert pressure on the Catholic community to prevent them joing the PSNI.

It would not be wise to join a police force that is not trusted as much as the PSNI is in the 'Catholic community' in the north.

I'd have to agree with the PSNI when they described it as a “barbaric” attack.

The Brigadier

Mighty Mouse can you give me 1 instance where it might be acceptable to set someone on fire?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I havent said anything about it being right or wrong. I've simply said that you can be as apalled as you like but the problem will remain. To adress the problem of punishment beatings there is a need to provide a police force which is acceptable to all of NI society.Currently an acceptable police force doesnt exist

Well then Mighth_Mouse
You were asked what sort of sicko would let someone burn alive as a method of meating out justice...
Is that right or wrong?

And how in Gods name can you post here complaining about what the PSNI do when those that are self styled republican vigilante's are willing to burn their victims alive??

Now answer the question as well is it right or wrong?

Oh and wanting someone to burn... regardless of what they did how does that fit in with the errrr..., lets see the slogan " Building an Ireland of Equals" ??

The Brigadier

Originally posted by monument
It would not be wise to join a police force that is not trusted as much as the PSNI is in the 'Catholic community' in the north.

I'd have to agree with the PSNI when they described it as a “barbaric” attack.

Catholics don't trust the PSNI as there are not enought Catholics in it. PSNI tries to recuit more Catholics. Catholics warned not to join the PSNI by Sinn Fein and suffer intimidation if they do. Catholics don't trust the PSNI as there are not enought Catholics in it.

Now who is at fault here??

Mighty_Mouse

Catholics don't trust the PSNI as there are not enought Catholics in it.

let me stop you there!! You obviously haven't bothered to read one word of republican reasoning for mistrust in the PSNI/RUC? http://www.sinnfein.ie/peace/policing knock yourself out.

Now answer the question as well is it right or wrong?

My point here is it doesnt matter "one jot" how right or how wrong any one person in here may think this act is. The fact of the matter is that punishment beatings in Northern Ireland (by republicans) are directly related to a lack of trustworthy form of policing.

The Brigadier

So are these actions wrong, yes or no?

monument

Originally posted by Sleepy
Markets do (when they're left alone from Government intervention).

Bull shit.

Markets when 'left alone from Government intervention' screw people.

Originally posted by Sleepy
Right Wing Economics have given this country massive financial benefits. True, these haven't been dispersed fairly but that's a failure of an incompetent government, not the economic system.

As you said, right wing economics dictate that private industry should be ‘left alone’, so how is it the governments fault?

Originally posted by Sleepy
private industry is more efficient than civil-service run industry

More efficient at making profit for their owners. More efficient at leaving ethical standards behind them. Yeah, that’s true.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
So are these actions wrong, yes or no?

There are lots of wrong actions going around the place Brigadier, what's your point?

The Brigadier

These actions are wrong, with no excuse.

Sinn Fein and their supporters do not have the common decency to admit this.

So I am asking you all again a very simple question. If you are unable to answer this then you must be very stupid indeed.

Is setting fire to another human being wrong or right?

Please just give me an answer, not another question.

bus77

Yes, setting fire to people is wrong.

The Brigadier

So why will Sinn Fein not condemn these actions?

Why do Sinn Fein supporters excuse these actions?

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
So why will Sinn Fein not condemn these actions?

Because they are the policical wing of the IRA. It's the same reason the DUP dosn't but they wont admit their the political wing of anybody.

Why do Sinn Fein supporters excuse these actions?[/B]

I never did.

Mighty_Mouse

These actions are wrong, with no excuse.

Does this mean you ignore the reason for them? You want to engage in yes or no politics Brigidier without having the "common decency" (as you call it) to at least examine what drives a large section of a particular society to voilence and then refuse to condem that voilence. How about do you understand why republicans in NI cannot turn to their police force to police their areas? Do you understand the need for large scale reform of police in NI? or even the most basic do you accept that the majority of republicans do not have an acceptable police force and the reason for this is a lot more than Sinn Fein refusing to join the policing board?

ps
all of the above are yes no answers.

pps
I'm still havent excused anything or said whether it is right or wrong so I hope your not referring to me above?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

My point here is it doesnt matter "one jot" how right or how wrong any one person in here may think this act is. The fact of the matter is that punishment beatings in Northern Ireland (by republicans) are directly related to a lack of trustworthy form of policing.

So it's justifiable to burn people alive in the Republican justice system is it?
Is that the model of policing you are justifing in the Ireland of Equals....?

I ask again how does leaving someone to burn alive tie in with building an Ireland of equals?
It's not justice it's out and out savagery.

Mighty_Mouse

It's not justice it's out and out savagery.

Well technically: it could be described as justice (depending on the crime committed) but I agree it's a particularly savage form of justice. Now answer me this: Why is it happening and how do you stop it? I would think the answer to both lies in policing and policing reform.

Rock Climber

I didnt say it was justice,I said it was savagery and it is.
So you aren't agree'ing with me at all, you are justifying a near burning to death.

You do realise that such a position conficts totally with an agenda of equality ie building an Ireland of equals and is therefore hypocrisy.
Un less Republicans advocate death by burning for certain crimes.
I wonder what amnesty international would have to say about that sort of justice system...