Spin Fein To Knee Cap Europe?

The Brigadier

Mighty Mouse whatever problems there may be in Northern Ireland. There is no justification for this sort of atrocity.

Do you really think is any situation at all where it would be justifiable to burn someone like this?

Sinn Fein allways try and excuse these sorts of actions by deflecting the blame elsewhere.

Anyone who thinks that there is ANY excuse for burning someone like this must completely immoral.

Mighty_Mouse

I didnt say it was justice,I said it was savagery and it is.

Can justice not be savage? Understand that I'm not argueing it isn't savage. Is the electric chair not savage? I think so, but its still a form of justice, is it not? Anyways theres no point in getting hung up on technicalities.

So you aren't agree'ing with me at all, you are justifying a near burning to death.

How exactly have I justified it? I don't think I have. Maybe you should take some time to reread my post.

You do realise that such a position conficts totally with an agenda of equality ie building an Ireland of equals and is therefore hypocrisy.

Two points here.
1.I'm not sure how a position which did advocate punishment beatings would conflict with an Ireland of equals if you consider policing an issue which every citizen should have a fair and equal right to.
2. I never said I advocate, justify or believe punishment beatings are correct(I certainly don't think Sinn Fein advocate it). In an Ireland of equals they definitely wouldn't be. But then in an Ireland of Equals some sections of Northern Irish society wouldn't feel a need for them.

Unless Republicans advocate death by burning for certain crimes.

No need to exagerate. The beating was bad enough without saying he's dead.

My point here is why do "savage" beatings happen and how can you stop them? i've made an answered it several times at this stage.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Sinn Fein allways try and excuse these sorts of actions by deflecting the blame elsewhere.

And some will always put the blame on Sinn Fein each and every time.

mike65

Anyone else reckon Mighty Mouse is sailing mighty close to the wind here? Its starting to sound like you cant quite bring yourself to say punnishment beatings are morally wrong regardless of context.

Mike.

ishmael whale

At least no-one is trying to pretend that punishment beatings don’t occur with the support of Sinn Fein, unlike when the topic of Gerry Adams’ membership of the IRA Army Council comes up and the SF supporters do their Comical Ali impersonation.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

2.
My point here is why do "savage" beatings happen and how can you stop them?

Savage beatings like this occur because of paramilitary thugs who are immoral scum.

The police issue peddled ad nauseum by Sinn Fein and perpetuated by same is not an excuse for these atrocoties.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Can justice not be savage? Understand that I'm not argueing it isn't savage. Is the electric chair not savage? I think so, but its still a form of justice, is it not? Anyways theres no point in getting hung up on technicalities. How exactly have I justified it? I don't think I have. Maybe you should take some time to reread my post. Two points here.

You justified it by offering an excuse for it's existance ie the lack of faith republicans have in the PSNI.
Thats a textbook example of justification.
The proper way to answer my question if and only if you thought punishment beatings and leaving a man to burn to death are wrong would be to have phrased your answer like " it's wrong but some people on the ground take the law into their own hands given the lack of an acceptable police force" or something like that.
I fully understand the complexities of the situation, but there is a better way.
Infiltrate the PSNI and what better opportunity is there to do that than with a 50:50 recruitment strategy.
Furthermore, what better way would there be to píss off hardliune unionists than for Gerry adams to join a policing board.

For what it's worth, the way I see it, hardliners in the IRA don't want to budge or take a gamble on policing, it's a pity 'cause I believe they could change it for the better from the inside.
Continuing vigilantism is very wrong in my view, particularally given it's an extreme form of inequality and inhumanity.

1.I'm not sure how a position which did advocate punishment beatings would conflict with an Ireland of equals if you consider policing an issue which every citizen should have a fair and equal right to.

But do you not see the inherent contradiction in SF advocating an Ireland of equals while at the same time it's friends in the Republican movement as judge jury and sometimes near executioners are involved in the most vile punishment justice which would be no where near what the PSNI with Nuala O' Loan watching over it could ever carry out...

Mighty_Mouse

Anyone else reckon Mighty Mouse is sailing mighty close to the wind here? Its starting to sound like you cant quite bring yourself to say punnishment beatings are morally wrong regardless of context.

Its the same old obsession with pointless condemnation. Personally I think its horrible that a man was savagely beaten.

You can continue to believe that condemnation solves something if you like. I don't. I think theres are reason for most acts which involve large sections of society- this includes suicide bombers in palestine, decapatations in Iraq and punishment beatings in Northern Ireland. But hey lets all condem the acts and live happily ever after. At least were absolved by our outrage and condemnation. Why should we have to consider the reasons for such acts? havent we already said they're wrong? haven't we condemned them enough?

The Brigadier

I can't find any evidence anywhere of Gerry, Marty or any other member of Sinn Fein condemning republican punishment beatings such as this.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Its the same old obsession with pointless condemnation. Personally I think its horrible that a man was savagely beaten.

You can continue to believe that condemnation solves something if you like. I don't. I think theres are reason for most acts which involve large sections of society- this includes suicide bombers in palestine, decapatations in Iraq and punishment beatings in Northern Ireland. But hey lets all condem the acts and live happily ever after. At least were absolved by our outrage and condemnation. Why should we have to consider the reasons for such acts? havent we already said they're wrong? haven't we condemned them enough?

Whats the problem with the word condemn?
Other than such condemnation would offend the perpetrator of what you condemn...
Thats a highly fuzzy and double standard approach to take, given that SF were on the streets condemning the IRAQ war.
How else does one express ones contempt for an action without condemnation?
Or at the very least how else does one dis associate oneself from the activities of punishment attackers which is a question that is at the heart of this thread...

Mighty_Mouse

You justified it by offering an excuse for it's existance ie the lack of faith republicans have in the PSNI.

An excuse or a reason? Do you not believe there is a reason for punishment beatings taking place?

Thats a textbook example of justification.

Quote me exactly where my textbook example of justification is

it's wrong but some people on the ground take the law into their own hands given the lack of an acceptable police force"

Again quote me where I've said different. by the way. Whether or not a person thinks burning people is completely justified or not. Doesnt mean they cannot offer the reason for it. So your big and bold "IF AND ONLY IF" doesnt make sense IMO

Infiltrate the PSNI and what better opportunity is there to do that than with a 50:50 recruitment strategy

How do you change an RUC controlled PSNI from the inside/from the bottom? Do you not think that if something is wrong with the PSNI (as you admit) that it should be changed before asking nationalists to join? Specifically are you saying that nationalists should join a clearly corrupt and wrong police force with the hope of changing it from the inside?

Furthermore, what better way would there be to píss off hardline unionists than for Gerry adams to join a policing board.

I dont think a peace process should be about doing things in order to piss off the other side, for what its worth.

hardliners in the IRA don't want to budge or take a gamble on policing, it's a pity 'cause I believe they could change it for the better from the inside

Is it ok for the people who have serious problems with the security forces in the North, lived through years of colusion, have the most horrible experience of the RUC and still do not see adequate change to think differently? For what its worth a few hardline republicans aren't discouraging the whole republican community from joining the police force

Continuing vigilantism is very wrong in my view, particularally given it's an extreme form of inequality and inhumanity.

I agree, but the way to change it is ..............yada yada im sure nobody will read this bit anyway

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
I can't find any evidence anywhere of Gerry, Marty or any other member of Sinn Fein condemning republican punishment beatings such as this.

Because as soon as they did the first thing that would be thown back at them would be "What about those bombs in London?" You seem to have no idea about the wide range of republicans these people are speaking for, both conservative and hard core.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
An excuse or a reason? Do you not believe there is a reason for punishment beatings taking place? Quote me exactly where my textbook example of justification is Again quote me where I've said different.

Giving an excuse or a reason is unless you qualify it is a justification.
I presume you have now qualified your post in the above by saying theres no justification for punishment beatings.

Is it ok for the people who have serious problems with the security forces in the North, lived through years of colusion, have the most horrible experience of the RUC and still do not see adequate change to think differently? For what its worth a few hardline republicans aren't discouraging the whole republican community from joining the police force

It's all give and take.
Theres plenty of unionists feeling the same way about the IRA and worse.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by bus77
You seem to have no idea about the wide range of republicans these people are speaking for, both conservative and hard core.

And that 'wide range' have no idea how distant they are from the rest of us.

Mighty_Mouse

I presume you have now qualified your post in the above by saying theres no justification for punishment beatings

Feel free to quote where I said punishment beatings were a good thing or anything like it.

Theres plenty of unionists feeling the same way about the IRA and worse.

FFS!!!Are we still talking about the police force here!!! Unionists aren't asked to be policed by the IRA!!! Can you see how it would be unacceptable for unionists to be policed by the IRA. Would you not prefer to see a situation where the hypothetical police force IRA had been changed unrecognisably in order for unionists to accept them as their new police force.

bus77

Originally posted by ishmael whale
And that 'wide range' have no idea how distant they are from the rest of us.

And the "rest of us" have no idea how close they really are.

The Brigadier

There is corruption in every police force. There is corruption in the Gardai.

Mighty Mouse, how would you feel If some guy came to your house in the night and broke your fingers because you got a parking ticket.

Mighty_Mouse

There is corruption in every police force. There is corruption in the Gardai.

Yes an acceptable level of corruption which I say is tiny. An the public is confident enough with the measures in place to counteract any such corruption. What are you saying by this point? Are you saying there is an acceptable level of corruption in the PSNI?

Mighty Mouse, how would you feel If some guy came to your house in the night and broke your fingers because you got a parking ticket.

I think you've finally lost it!! What are you raving about here man! But I'll answer. I'd be pretty pissed. I certainly would like to be assured that the whole police force wasnt like this. I certainly would like to think that there were mechanisms in place to deal with my conplaint without recrimination. Now if he had played a part in murdering my children, parents, cousins ..etc............if he was still a copper .......if I knew that his action typified a large section of the police force. Well then I might be inclined to stay well clear of the police force and turn to the IRA to carry out my policing.

Sleepy

Originally posted by monument
Bull shit.

Markets when 'left alone from Government intervention' screw people.

As you said, right wing economics dictate that private industry should be ‘left alone’, so how is it the governments fault?

More efficient at making profit for their owners. More efficient at leaving ethical standards behind them. Yeah, that’s true.

How can you state markets screw people when it's nothing more than people that make up the market?

Free market economics dictate that the government don't try to monopolise areas of the economy that they're simply not capable of running. The governments job is to police a market, not try and compete in it.

Ethical business practices are actually good for a companies bottom line. More efficient at making profit for their owners, I won't argue that, who else benefits when a company and it's owners make a profit? We all do, due to increased tax revenues. You have yet to give me one example why we should have a centrally planned economy.

Sleepy

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Yes an acceptable level of corruption which I say is tiny. An the public is confident enough with the measures in place to counteract any such corruption. What are you saying by this point? Are you saying there is an acceptable level of corruption in the PSNI? I think you've finally lost it!! What are you raving about here man! But I'll answer. I'd be pretty pissed. I certainly would like to be assured that the whole police force wasnt like this. I certainly would like to think that there were mechanisms in place to deal with my conplaint without recrimination. Now if he had played a part in murdering my children, parents, cousins ..etc............if he was still a copper .......if I knew that his action typified a large section of the police force. Well then I might be inclined to stay well clear of the police force and turn to the IRA to carry out my policing.

You must have been dropped as a child, or were you the victim of a punishment beating because your head is obviously soft if you'd leave a bunch of murderers, kidnappers, bank robbers, drug dealers and psychopaths to carry out your policing.

The Brigadier

Might Mouse, I am not talking abuot the Gardai coming to your house. I am talking about some group of lowlife thugs who have decided to take the law in there own hands.

This is what is happening in the North. It is a crude example but certainly an accurate one.

Mighty_Mouse

Easy on the flames, Dopey..........erm.sorry I mean Sleepy!

You must have been dropped as a child, or were you the victim of a punishment beating because your head is obviously soft if you'd leave a bunch of murderers, kidnappers, bank robbers, drug dealers and psychopaths to carry out your policing.

They currently are carrying out policing in Northern Ireland. They're call the PSNI. Therefore I assume you can understand the problem

Mighty_Mouse

won't argue that, who else benefits when a company and it's owners make a profit? WE ALL DO, due to increased tax revenues

Yes WE ALL DO!!! Thank god and there was me thinking that the gap between rich and poor was widening!! Phew! Thank god. hopefully someday we can become like those lucky americans who work 100 hour weeks to pay for education and health care. Thank god!!

Also let those north donegal grannys go **** themselves I mean why do people live up there anyway!! Dont they know that loike the private bus service doesnt consider them economically efficient to service. i mean loike why should we pay for there electricity. Why dont they join our privatised grid around Dublin!

Sleepy

Where did I say that Bus services should be taken out of government control, in fact I posted the exact opposite.

The fact that Fianna Fail could mismanage the biggest cash windfall of the state is responsible for the widening poverty gap, not the market system.

You know Mighty_Mouse, you sound like Kitten from Big Brother. Full of ideals and dreams, not one of which seem to be based in sound logical thinking.

Mighty_Mouse

Might Mouse, I am not talking abuot the Gardai coming to your house. I am talking about some group of lowlife thugs who have decided to take the law in there own hands.

Oops! Silly me! I accidently mixed them up with the RUC. Good thing so they dont have a history of attrocities cause we certainly couldnt expect people to accept thugs for a police force

Mighty_Mouse

.

Where did I say that Bus services should be taken out of government control, in fact I posted the exact opposite.

So your not an out and out capitalist? So your nearer to socialist ideals than I though!

The fact that Fianna Fail could mismanage the biggest cash windfall of the state is responsible for the widening poverty gap, not the market system.[/QUOTE
Yes and that mismanaged market system in america too! In fact doesnt mismanagement of a theroetically sound economic principle sound vaguely familar ?

You know Mighty_Mouse, you sound like Kitten from Big Brother. Full of ideals and dreams, not one of which seem to be based in sound logical thinking]

Sorry i missed the last episode!!!!!!!! Could you fill me in whilst also explaining where my ideals are illogical?

ps
You'll have to explain whether people should be allowed to have a certain set of ideals which influece their realistic policies and actions or whether people should only be giuded by reality

earwicker

Again, this discussion might be worthwhile if people just took the time to actually find out about the relations between the IRA and SF instead of the meaningless shibboleths I keep hearing.

At "best" it is a fragmented continuum based on that ineffable called "trust." You only have to look at the text of Morrison's "Armalite and ballot box" strategy document to realize that it was an attempt to keep the IRA on board with the increasingly political strategy of SF under Adams after the 1981 hunger strikes (incidentally, Loyalist paramilitaries were also involved with strikes). In 1986 SF recognized the Dail, and this produced a split, which Adams and company were lucky didn't break the trust of the IRA in SF.

None of this suggests that there is a simple uniform relation between the two organizations. The relation is one governed by "trust" and constant renegotiation. If they are simply "the same thing," then why is there a concern with "keeping them on board"?

The current thuggery has to stop. No question.

But there are a number of problems regarding policing that no amount of crowing about "right" and "wrong" will make go away. There are long-standing problems of trust between certain sections of the Catholic community and the police services. There is also the problem of the IRA having to relinquish the "vigilante/policing" role they played when the RUC and the Army simply left the Catholic ghettoes to their own devices (the famous "no go" areas). Times have changed, and clearly a police force that is deemed to be impartial by all is preferable, but since there is still the very real problem of a split, this whole area needs to be handled very carefully. (This is not to mention: (a) the problematic relations of the IRA and its various newer flavours that are now out there: the so-called Continuity and Real; nor (b) the various acts of thuggery perpetrated by the Unionist-Loyalist paramiliatry gangs on each other.) There are also the fears of the Unionist-Loyalist community that have to do with their pre-eminent position being eroded by various forces that need to be worked out (this can be seen as a class problem).

Lip service invoking moral absolutes cannot solve any of these issues because as it stands in the North there are no moral absolutes. Before it gets to that comfy point it has to be about adequate representational politics. This means that sectarian politics have not gone away. This is the troubling terrain people have to work on.

But one thing is clear: these problems can only be solved through political dialogue, which has stalled over an issue that was accepted in the GFA (by all except Paisley's DUP), but has since been deemed by the UUP as inadequate. The longer dialogue is stalled, the wider the space for this type of thuggery will get.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Feel free to quote where I said punishment beatings were a good thing or anything like it.

LoL,I've gone one better and quoted you as saying theres no justification for punishment beatings here I respect your opinion that theres no justification for punishment beatings

FFS!!!Are we still talking about the police force here!!! Unionists aren't asked to be policed by the IRA!!!

heh!
They were being policed by them for long enough via bombs, shootings and killings...
Whats the difference between the hurt on one side and the hurt on the other...
Are they not at least equal in this " Ireland of equals " of yours??

monument

Originally posted by Sleepy
How can you state markets screw people when it's nothing more than people that make up the market?

So people won’t screw other people?

Markets are not made of nothing more then people; they’re made of companies, among other thing. Some of which have the sole aim of maximum profit, no matter what the cost. (I’m not saying all have this aim)

AIB for example, when “left alone” they screwed people .

Originally posted by Sleepy
Free market economics dictate that the government don't try to monopolise areas of the economy that they're simply not capable of running. The governments job is to police a market, not try and compete in it.

Like Eircom or maybe British Rail? The private sector has really run them better.

(Actually the Eircom f**k up is really a fine example of maximising profits, and getting out – But it’s now funny that comreg has so much power over them – not very “free market”)

Originally posted by Sleepy
Ethical business practices are actually good for a companies bottom line. More efficient at making profit for their owners, I won't argue that, who else benefits when a company and it's owners make a profit? We all do, due to increased tax revenues.

No, they are not. A large percentage of the largest companies in the world have been charged for, or accused of, trying to run monopolies, over pricing, pricing fixing (cartels) etc…

Originally posted by Sleepy
You have yet to give me one example why we should have a centrally planned economy.

If you like it or not, we have a centrally planned/controlled economy.

However I have said that I would prefer a more left wing “system that actually cares about people”… “(whether it’s the homeless in Dublin, or the growing amount of poverty and hunger stricken regulars at the church soup kitchens in the US)”.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
There is corruption in every police force. There is corruption in the Gardai.

Mighty Mouse, how would you feel If some guy came to your house in the night and broke your fingers because you got a parking ticket.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
What are you raving about here man! But I'll answer. I'd be pretty pissed. I certainly would like to be assured that the whole police force wasnt like this. I certainly would like to think that there were mechanisms in place to deal with my conplaint without recrimination.

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Might Mouse, I am not talking abuot the Gardai coming to your house. I am talking about some group of lowlife thugs who have decided to take the law in there own hands.

LMAO!! ahhh God