Raising for value?

Lafortezza

I was thinking about the following situation after talking to a guy in the fitz who constantly made a minimum raise from late position at our table.

Say you are in late position early on in a tournament. Stacks are all fairly even, say about 2000 chips per person. Blinds are relatively small, 25-50, 50-100 maybe.

At a table of 10 or 11, say there are 5 or 6 callers of the big blind and you're on the button. Would you make a minimum/small raise to get more value into the pot?
Assuming that the blinds will call and the other callers will call a small raise to see the flop after already simply flat-calling the big blind, you can double the amount of chips in the pot from say 700 (7 callers) to about 1300+ (5 callers).

You would consider doing this if you held a decent drawing hand or marginal playing hand, ie something that if it improves on the flop could easily be the winning hand.
J10 suited, pocket 3's, K9 suited for example. Personally I usually would have limped with these hands.

If you hit the flop with these hands you will have received better value with your preflop raise and with a larger pot you may get more callers if you bet on the flop.

I've noticed several Fitz regulars do this, Norman being a perfect example, raising with any 2 'live' cards simply because if they hit the flop he will get paid off more.

Opinions?

Hyzepher

I think its a great strategy - especially at the lower blinds. I have actually started to do this more often lately - luke you'll remember when I was raising 400 all the time - worked out well.

Hyzepher

Marq

I often raise from late position with good drawing hands if nobody else has raised the pot. You run the risk of running into a reraise, becuase at longhanded tables people with premium hands often just call from under-the-gun and early position. Most of the time it's worth it though, particularly if you hit your hand or are drawing to the nuts. Bear in mind that it's essential to get out of the hand cheaply after the flop if it brings you no help. Be aware of when you are only drawing to the second best hand - that's nowhere near good enough to continue when you have 5 or 6 people in the pot that you have deliberately let in cheaply to bump up the size of the pot. Long-handed, it's too easy to be outdrawn. If you have raised the minimum before the flop and you've hit it or have a good draw, I'd would recommend betting, and betting big. Once you've hit your hand your primary goal is to get people off the pot, which can be more difficult since you've forced them to invest more in it before the flop. Unless you raise big you've given people the pot odds to call their draws.

I usually find that a larger raise from late position works better, as it narrows the field, gets the same amount in the pot, and gives you a good oppurtunity to bluff should the flop come down awkward. I'd much prefer to be heads up in any pot that I wasn't limping into, and a large bet achieves this.

Of course, you stand to lose more, so what would I know?

whiteshadow

This is tricky.

Often if you make this play you are meerly making it more of a difficult decision
to throw your hand down...

Let's say you don't raise and limp in with your 10,J and the flop comes 8,9, A.
Someone under the gun might holding a decent hand say AK will probably bet a mediocre sized bet... might be worth calling depending on how many others limp in.
between the bettor and yourself. Or if it's an overly agressive bet then your decision is easily made to muck your drawing hand.

Now, if you consider that by re-raising before the flop and getting the same amount of callers... Anyone holding the AK for example will bet big in the attempt to win an attractive pot there and then.

So why put the money in in the first place?

You'll just make the decision making a tougher process for yourself.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by whiteshadow
Now, if you consider that by re-raising before the flop and getting the same amount of callers... Anyone holding the AK for example will bet big in the attempt to win an attractive pot there and then.

So why put the money in in the first place?

The table situation and your image of the other players will come into this decision too. If there's alot of passive players who are more likely to call to see what the flop brings then its a good idea. But if you have many loose aggressive players who think they might be able to steal the pot or atleast get heads up or trim the field then the min raise from late position might be a mistake.
People might see the min raise as a weak bet and go over the top.

DeVore

after several callers, any raise is no weak bet. It does indicate a drawing hand but AK is a drawing hand after all

I will double the blinds with any two decent cards (like qj or 98s) if the blinds are small enough. Almost noone ever folds to it either...

Luke, when you were playing with me the other night I was bumping and stealing by doing this trick if it was called round to me and then betting largish if it was checked round to me postflop! You even commented on it during the game.
Its a nice tactic on a tight table because you can often push people off decent stuff and if you are reraised and you have the goods... well happy days
I made out like a bandit that night (in fact, everything up until you frustration-called my JJ's was a total steal )

DeV.

Hectorjelly

I think you're giving away too much information here, and making it very easy for a good player to come back over the top of you. That said you'll probably get away with it at the free tournaments.

Daragh

Iago

Personally I love when people do this and I call them with two suited cards and then hit my flush on the turn or river after they've made significant bets..

Isn't that right DeV

Hyzepher

The thing about constantly raising in late position - even if it is the minimum bet - the other players will catch on and not limp in too often when they know you are going to do it. This helps you as it allows you to play more marginal hands then normal.

Also - by raising it gives the other players something to think about - I dont think it gives too much information away, in fact i think it will add to their puzzelment and they will have a hard time telling what you have - especially if you do the same even when you have a stronger hand.

Hyzepher

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Hyzepher
Also - by raising it gives the other players something to think about - I dont think it gives too much information away, in fact i think it will add to their puzzelment and they will have a hard time telling what you have - especially if you do the same even when you have a stronger hand.
Hyzepher

Like kencleary said at the cash game in Puddings last saturday, he had just gone all-in in late position after a load of flat-callers.
The first time everyone folded to him, the next hand he did it, "One of them was bullshit, but which one?"

In that other game Hyzepher bet out 400 so many times. He did it with small pairs (that hit quads on one occasion!) suited connectors, A-J type hands and monsters.
People just can't know what you have if you make similar raises but with varying hands. Doesn't really give too much away.

DeV: I made out like a bandit that night (in fact, everything up until you frustration-called my JJ's was a total steal )

Any queen... I would have paid a tenner just to hit a queen and bust you wide open...

DeVore

Originally posted by Iago
Personally I love when people do this and I call them with two suited cards and then hit my flush on the turn or river after they've made significant bets..

Isn't that right DeV

Yeah, good play. You toughed it out and hit your cards! You should keep doing that it seems to work for you.

DeV.

Hyzepher

Originally posted by DeVore
Yeah, good play. You toughed it out and hit your cards! You should keep doing that it seems to work for you.

DeV.

That has to be a first!!

Or are you secretly letting him fall into your trap and willnail him eventually?

Hyzepher

DeVore

Originally posted by lafortezza

In that other game Hyzepher bet out 400 so many times. He did it with small pairs (that hit quads on one occasion!) suited connectors, A-J type hands and monsters.
People just can't know what you have if you make similar raises but with varying hands. Doesn't really give too much away.

Yes, I am aware that against people who play against me a lot my formula can show through. I've been playing a bit differently lately to cover for that mixing it up so to speak.

The problem is that a big raise with QQ isnt just for value, it also serves a purpose, to thin the field to (preferably) one player. Max two! If you dont do that you will get out drawn on the flop etc. Some hands need a certain bet to be played correctly.
It may confuse the opposition but the danger is that it will get you into more trouble then its worth!

Any queen... I would have paid a tenner just to hit a queen and bust you wide open...

Coulda. Shoulda. Woulda
Serves you right for bitch-talking me at the table!! Yer man was looking at me odd when I was joking with you about having "none of that". I felt really bad then for ooo 2, maybe 3 seconds!

DeV.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by DeVore
Coulda. Shoulda. Woulda
Serves you right for bitch-talking me at the table!! Yer man was looking at me odd when I was joking with you about having "none of that". I felt really bad then for ooo 2, maybe 3 seconds!

DeV.

You know some day you'll be in the tank so long some old dear at the table will die of old age... either that or boredom

DeVore

If they die I get their chips... right? You know... thats an idea....

DeV.

Lafortezza

"Send us a live one Lou!"