Islam, backward?

BigDaddyKone

after reading Selim's post about Palestine. I felt that I would like to raise some points that are not politcally correct. I was looking for a relegion section to post this but i could not find it.

I would just like to point out that I am not Religous myself and think religion is a bit of a comfort blanket.

Is Islam a backward religion?

It seems to be that in europe a lot of countries are experiencing great dificulties in intergrating the muslim communities. France, Germany etc. I think that we as a community will have to grasp the mettle sooner rather than later. How should we go about intergrating them. Do we allow burka's ectera in our schools? I would say no. Surely if a man cannot stand the sight of a woman in less than oppresive clothes that is his problem. The whole sexist attitude within Islam I find distastefull. I know that when Mohhamed (not sure of the spelling) first started preaching. His views (for the time) were more protective and respectfull of women but that was 1400 years ago! Do people agree that Islam/ the muslim world is trapped in the past (it's former glories, preserver of civilisation, pioneer of trade, maths, etc) and that for the real injuries & paranoia to disappear the muslim world has to become more flexible and modern. Although a arab version of this - similar to the asian tiger economies -> as in, to not copy the western world but to take what works.

ven0m

Islam's difficulty with integration is that much of the modern versions of Islam are dresed up in middle-eastern culturalism, i.e. multiple wives, covered women, etc etc.

Much of the culturalisms that have been dressed up around the fvarious "versions" of Islam do not conform with Western society ideals. That is where the proble is. Otherwise, the basis of Islam is really no different to Christianity - you can't kill, you must treat everyone equally, & that the bottom line & final word rests with "God".

It is quite hard to get a "pure" version of the Quran to understand Islam, but in one version I found it pretty much states that "Jihads" cannot be issued by mortal man & is basically an end of days type thing, & Fatwahs can only be issuede in extreme circumstances but that killing is still not permitted.

Any decent muslim will tell you that alot of the b.s. that extremeists go on with is nothing more than that - b.s. & alot of the extremist behaviour is counter to Islamic law, but then again they will claim their version of Islamic study & interpretation of the Quran & implied Islamic law says they can - this is where another difficulty lies with western acceptance & integration with Islam. Unlike Christianity which has several versions of the bible, Islam has many "interpretted" versions of the Quran - not translated - INTERPRETTED, & as with any bad aspects of life - the extremists f**k it up for all the decent muslim followers out there.

And no - I am not a follower of Islam before anyone asks - I just like to read alot of stuff on religion & spirituality.

::: I SURFED THE RED SEA & MOSES THREW ME A TORN T-SHIRT - B*****D!!! :::

kano476

islamics claim that they are the only pure monotheistic religion because they say that other monotheistic religions while they believe in one god they also idolise and worship other things like pop stars, footballers and so on. Muslims believe in one god and belive that EVERYTHING comes from this god.

So they tend to look down on other religions and see christians and jews and hindus as corrupt. obviously not all muslims believe this but this is what the fanaticism stems from which can lead them to be a bit backward looking. The women in burkas and there treatment by men does seem backward and wrong by our cultural standards but to them it is part of everyday life and part of their culture. they just see things differently than to westerners.

OfflerCrocGod

Yes

clearz

You know I look at the way people are all talking about islam these days and I cant help but think about the way this country was not so long ago with the Cathloic church. I am to young to remember it myself but I have seen the documentaries and talked to old people.
Look at how quick we snapped out of that buzz and became the country we are today. Maybe with some military intervention and pressure from the "West" these islam countrys might wake up also to the fact that there is no God, Allah, Budda or whatever else some person dreamed up to explain something unknown. The only people that can save us Humans are ourselves.

kano476

......could start debating that but this is not the place!

RobertFoster

topic title made me think.... malsI

_blank_

Originally posted by RobertFoster
topic title made me think.... malsI

LOL...me too!!

passive

heh...yeah. me too. i wondered if it was some kind of sect or something.

Zulu

Ignorant? Prejudice? Narrow-minded?

Sleepy

Originally posted by Zulu
Ignorant? Prejudice? Narrow-minded?

Sounds like pretty much every major religeon to me...

dudara

Maybe with some military intervention and pressure from the "West" these islam countrys might wake up also to the fact that there is no God, Allah, Budda or whatever else some person dreamed up to explain something unknown. The only people that can save us Humans are ourselves.

take your head out of the clouds for the love of some divine being. Out military presence in the east is only compunding the problems being experienced there. As long as there is a western presence, the religious leaders will have a good whipping boy to preach about and will continue to draw disaffected, troubled people to their cause. Very much like Sinn Féin in the local elections (SPIT!).

there is no easy solution, look at the north, it started 400 years ago over religion and it's still going on.

ven0m

Originally posted by dudara
take your head out of the clouds for the love of some divine being. Out military presence in the east is only compunding the problems being experienced there. As long as there is a western presence, the religious leaders will have a good whipping boy to preach about and will continue to draw disaffected, troubled people to their cause. Very much like Sinn Féin in the local elections (SPIT!).

there is no easy solution, look at the north, it started 400 years ago over religion and it's still going on.

Couldn't agree more!!!!





::: CROWD SURFING IS FUN TILL YOU DECAPITATE SOMEONE :::

clearz

Originally posted by dudara
it started 400 years ago over religion and it's still going on.

Eh no it dident. It started because the English took our land away. And started treating us like animals. It just so happened that the English were Protestant. If they happened to be Catholic im sure they sanme would have happened.

dudara

Yes, but the fact is they looked for a division between the English and the Irish to emphasise and to persecute. Religion provided the opportunity.

MrNuked

My gf's (fiancée's ) friend is from Bahrain. She is 24 and runs away when she sees me coming, on account of me being male. Her sister is marrying a man she doesn't know. She seems quite nice from what I've heard (she runs away before I can talk to her).
Quite a few people have bothered my gf in Dublin. One man warned her to "Be careful" after she indicated she didn't want to speak to him. Another followed her around town angrily insisting that he was different from other men. Both these men were Muslim. The men who stare at her in the most unpleasant and unsubtle manner are always Muslim or Chinese. They have a dreadul attitude towards women.

They should stop the war in Iraq alright. Withdraw all the troops and bomb the place to the ground. (I say this for shock value; don't really think it. Not quite).
And they should let those IRA ****ers in Columbia get killed. (This i do think. Mention it because Sinn Féin were mentioned).
They (Muslims) don't need anything to get worked up about they're brainwashed anyway. In Iran they have prayer ceremonies for several hours a day, which consist largely of chanting "death to America". Charming. In Iraq they were knocking down hiostorical sites and rebuilding them with Saddam's name on the blocks. They had billboards depicting him as some legendrary figure leading them on a crusade.
I greatly dislike the way American transgressions in Iraq are made more of than Iraqi ones.
Iraq was invaded because it was a hostile nation that was gearing itself up for war. It also contains oil. It also commits human rights abuses.
I am sick of the superior anti-American attitude so many people have here. Although I do think that Bush is a buffoon and they should have signed the Kyoto pact.

tribble

Originally posted by MrNuked
The men who stare at her in the most unpleasant and unsubtle manner are always Muslim or Chinese. They have a dreadul attitude towards women.

:rolleyes: - FFS cop on. China and it's communist system gave women totally equal rights* to women and men from it's inception.
I've been there - Nowhere in Europe have I see women so confident.
Half their taxi drivers are women.
Teachers, public representatives and business people - there is virtually no discrimination.
Men are pussy whipped over there compared to here.

*They may not be as extensive as those NOW enjoyed by the west but they are at the very least the same for men and women

Originally posted by MrNuked
They should stop the war in Iraq alright. Withdraw all the troops and bomb the place to the ground. (I say this for shock value; don't really think it. Not quite).

Why precisly?
:rolleyes: Genocide is ok then? You are some way genetically/morally/ethically superior to them?
Get a life

Originally posted by MrNuked
And they should let those IRA ****ers in Columbia get killed. (This i do think. Mention it because Sinn Féin were mentioned).

Innocent until proven guilty and all? Punishment to fit the crime? They got done for travelling under false documentation, whether you believe they were guilty of other acts is irrelevent if you believe in equality.

Originally posted by MrNuked
They (Muslims) don't need anything to get worked up about they're brainwashed anyway. In Iran they have prayer ceremonies for several hours a day, which consist largely of chanting "death to America". Charming.

Nope - their prayers (Dua's) are prescripted from before the exitence of the USA.

Originally posted by MrNuked
In Iraq they were knocking down hiostorical sites and rebuilding them with Saddam's name on the blocks. They had billboards depicting him as some legendrary figure leading them on a crusade.

" The president raised a record $180 million, and half of that was budgeted for campaign operations, the other half for pre-convention advertising. But of the advertising budget, $90 million, the Bush campaign has already spent at least $40 million." - MSNBC

I greatly dislike the way American transgressions in Iraq are made more of than Iraqi ones. [/B]

I should bloody well hope so.

IIraq was invaded because it was a hostile nation that was gearing itself up for war. . [/B]

Yeah - that's why they found all those weapons.:rolleyes:

tribble

clearz

I read someware that the more crap the country is the worse the religion is. This is because 99% of the people in these Muslim countrys are living life in a perpetual Hell and have to hope that when they die something good will happen to them.

][cEMAN**

Originally posted by MrNuked
And they should let those IRA ****ers in Columbia get killed. (This i do think. Mention it because Sinn Féin were mentioned).

You do realise that condeming people to death due to their political position is the exact same thing that they're doing? So in a sense you're hypocritical to want them dead for wanting other people dead who don't agree with them.

Just to point that out

And as for telling people to wise up and realise there is no god - that's your opinion, but enforcing it onto others is exactly what causes the problems that people fight over. When people learn to stop judging others then it's going to make things a lot easier.

clearz

Originally posted by ][cEMAN**
And as for telling people to wise up and realise there is no god - that's your opinion, but enforcing it onto others is exactly what causes the problems that people fight over. When people learn to stop judging others then it's going to make things a lot easier.

Nobody is telling anybody to change their beliefs but Muslims wil have to learn to control theirs. God is the single biggest killer the world has ever seen (or not seen).

][cEMAN**

"God loves man kills"

Some people will know where that comes from :P

clearz you can't blame people's belief in their god as a reason for murder. Most religions if not all, teach love and understanding between people. Rarely is it labeled as "kill for me".

The largest single example of this is religious divide within N.Ireland. All denominations I refer to are christians with differences in what parts of that faith they wish to ignore or follow. Different sides killing in the name of a god that says love thy neighbour. It's all nonsense.

pclancy

didnt the brits create the whole division in northern ireland in the first place? Cue poor catholic peasants. Take their land that they have owned since the dawn of time and make them pay rent on it/give up their religion/not allowed go to school etc etc. Grab some english, scottish and welsh protestants and pop them into ulster, give them more/better land then the catholics and let them freely practice their religion. Then add give the english nobility nice estates and titles in ireland and let them collect all the money they need to stay fat off the irish. In the meantime, make sure and strip the country of all its best resources like wood/coal/zinc/labour. Keep growing the hatred until both communities hate each other so much that they cant stop and realise that its the english that ****ed it all up in the first place!

feck it religion shouldnt mean you cant get on with someone at the end of the day and it sure as hell shouldnt mean you should kill someone.

pclancy

Originally posted by ][cEMAN**
"God loves man kills"

The largest single example of this is religious divide within N.Ireland. All denominations I refer to are christians with differences in what parts of that faith they wish to ignore or follow. Different sides killing in the name of a god that says love thy neighbour. It's all nonsense.

Exactly! Or what iceman said!

munkeehaven

of course we as humans react almost always in a negative way to things or concepts we dont understand, i have to admit that for a while i had a slightly prejudiced view about islam but then i decided to read up a bit about it, and like any other religion it has it's good and bad points. there are fundamentalists in every religion you can think of...humans love to go to extremes with EVERYTHING.i myself dont belong to any particular following ...i just prefer to muse about life and study human behaviours and beliefs.the fact is when we die we will know ...so for now we should just accept everyone elses views in this lifetime...and if all they say is true about an afterlife..then someone will get the chance to say I TOLD YOU SO...whoever that may be...:)

MrNuked

In repsone to Tribble's post:

Iraq was gearing itself up for war. They did not have WMOD, and the suspicion that they may have had was probably just propaganda. They were gearing themselves up for war as well as they could however. They twisted their myths and legends to feature Saddam Hussein as a mythical leader on a crusade.

I do not consider myself superior to them. I don't care about them. They threaten what I do care about. That is why I wish them ill.

Sinn Féin seem very concerned about the men in Columbia. Not a typical holiday destination. I think that we would be well off trying to help other people or causes than people who are probably murderers.

The prayer services existed before the USA yes. However in Iran they now chant "Death to America" as well as their prayers in those services.

The amount of money Bush spent on advertising himself is shameful. However in Iraq they destroyed old Babylonian architecture and monuments, and bastardised their myths. If I understand correctly this would be equivalent to Bush destroying the statue of Liberty and replacing it with one with his name all over it, and portraying himself as Jesus.

mike65

This should be Humanities...oddly enough!

Mike.

orangerooster

Originally posted by MrNuked
In repsone to Tribble's post:
I do not consider myself superior to them. I don't care about them. They threaten what I do care about. That is why I wish them ill.

I'll take it by "they" you mean the people if Iraq-if that is what you mean then your a very ignorant person.To say that the people of Iraq or the muslim religon in Iraq was gearing for war is absurd-the people of Iraq lived under a vicious dictatorial regime that told them how to live they I'm sure had very little say in what went on.To say that Saddam Huessien was gearing for war is also absurd-any country that was gearing for war would not have fallen within two weeks no matter how poor its army.You sound like a product of the jingoistic crap CNN and Sky News portrays.

Victor

Originally posted by MrNuked
Iraq was gearing itself up for war.

This is what countries do when (a) other countries start massing on your border (b) they start bombing you (c) they are making random threats of the day

MrNuked

They were gearing for war. They had a massively inferior military to the force that invaded them. That is why they fell within two weeks.
"They" as in the nation. Not the people or the leader, but the entity of Iraq.
It is a nation that supports terrorists who commit atrocious acts and kill people.
I don't think I am ignorant. I suppose my view is jingoistic, but it is rational. I think that people there support a threat to people I care about. A threat that is seized and manipulated by the media yes, but also a real threat.
They hate us all. This is a Jingoistic thing to say, but i think it is true.

MrNuked

A man shoots a rabid dog. What a bad man. All the dog did was foam at the mouth.

orangerooster

Im sure the men signing onto the American backed Iraqi police force (which handles terrorism in Iraq as best it can) were thinking of how much they supported terrorists when they were hit by the mortar shell as they stood in line. Im sure Iraqi's just loves the idea of suicide bombers blowing up their friends and family on a daily basis. To say that all Muslims hate the west is just plain wrong-not every muslim wants to see the west in flames, a lot do yes, but to say all is ignorant.

MrNuked

No I said they hate us all. They being them generally.

orangerooster

Originally posted by MrNuked
No I said they hate us all. They being them generally.

Your taking the piss at this stage right?So all Muslims all over the world hate the west?Is that what your saying?

MrNuked

No I meant that most of the Iraqis do.

orangerooster

Cause thats way more rational and true.:rolleyes:

munkeehaven

just wanted to know mr.nuked do you actually know any iraqis? have you spoken to them personally? we as irish people then.. must just be a bunch of red headed-unibrowed-green-wearing-leprechauns--- if you are going to live with such pathetic stereotypes---....go out and find an iraqi and youll see they are just as normal as you (?!)........would you like a pint of guiness and a plate of potatoes with that?

Ajnag

Islam. Backwards. Attitude to women.
Ireland. Catholisism. Attitude to Children.
Pot. Kettle. Black?

Just because Irish religious crimes were in the recent past, dont give us much room to cast stones.

MrNuked

No Irish people are more perceived as being violent drunks. We are. It is normal to see fights in Ireland and not unusual to be involved in them. The level of alcohol abuse is horrendous. The Irish stereotype is true, regrettably.

I think the post that was in response to has been deleted? Something about us all being leprachauns?

I think Catholicism is backward too. I think Ireland is backward. What makes it ok for Irish people to criticise America and not Palestine?

I have spoken to two Palestinians online and been shocked by their attitudes. I have seen a documentary film of Iraq and Iran that I think was on Channel 4 a couple of years ago.
That does not give me enough knowledge to talk on the matter any further.

munkeehaven

the best thing to realise is that we are all human...and to be honest living in a first world country we will never have to deal with anything the palestinians or iraqis are going through....its alien to us and always will be....whos knows what kind of hate you would harbour in your mind if you were in their shoes????????:dunno:

MrNuked

Look my point is that I don't give a **** about them. I Don;t think I'm superior to them morally or otherwise. I hate this self righteous ****e. If something threatens what I care about I want it to die. If that requires other things I don't care about to die too then fine. I'm getting drawn in to being painted as some ****ing ignorant supremacist or something by you anal prigs.

Victor

Originally posted by MrNuked
A man shoots a rabid dog. What a bad man. All the dog did was foam at the mouth.

Turns out dog wasn't rabid. Man had large arsenal hidden in back garden.

][cEMAN**

Originally posted by MrNuked
A man shoots a rabid dog. What a bad man. All the dog did was foam at the mouth.

Man pokes a dog with a stick for a long period of time, starves dog and abuses him - man hits dog, dog bites man - man kills dog. Bad dog?

Not specifically talking about iraq or what you're mentioning, but i'm just replying to your analogy.

MrNuked

Definitely a good idea to have killed the dog in that case! That dog would be more dangerous than one with rabies!

][cEMAN**

:rolleyes:

seamus

MrNuked, I'm pretty sure you're just trolling here, but I'll humour you anyway.

Originally posted by MrNuked
No Irish people are more perceived as being violent drunks. We are. It is normal to see fights in Ireland and not unusual to be involved in them. The level of alcohol abuse is horrendous. The Irish stereotype is true, regrettably.

Except that it's not. We do like our drink, we can admit that. But I wouldn't say we're a nation of alcoholics. Nor are we a nation of drunken brawlers. It is *normal* to see drunken fights, sure, but how many people are actually involved?
The vast, vast majority of Irish people on an average weekend go out, get fairly tipsy, have a laugh, spend too much money, and go home. Most of us neither get plastered or start/get involved in fights.

Exactly the same as it's fair to say that fundamental, west-hating Muslims are normal, or 'common', but the vast majority or Muslims are peaceful, religious people.

Superman

Well After all this talk about what is backwards and archaic, has anyone took a moment to actually think about the future?

And what/(can a) religions are futureproof?

Remember folks in the 60's and 70's we thought we would be living in domes on the moon by 2000!
And in the 80's hover cars were the going to be the next internet!

BUMP!

Very philosophical thread but at the end of the day the fact is that while most (many??) "Arabs" (Dont like bundling huge groups under one heading but for the sake of discussion...) dont spend every minute thinking about blowing up westerners, many do at least have a bubbling underlying hatred for us. With good reason in many cases as they do have genuine gripes against us and in particular against the americans who appear to believe they can do pretty much what they like and take what they want (oil) from the regions as well as the perceived .

Long and short of it is that someone mentions a suicide bomber they look in disgust but never ask why or how bad or desperate must someone feel before they are pushed so far as to even consider such an awful atrocity. Take away that desperation and you may sort the problem - continue pointing a gun at them and make it worse. Bush would want to wake up... (Rant over ..... NOW!)

Hagar

Give the Muslims a break.

They are just like you and I being manipulated by organized religion just like everyone else.
The western religions are just the same.
All religions seek power in this world and pretend to have a monopoly on the next.
A claim which can never be disproved.

We don't believe in fairies, LGB excepted, isn't it about time we stopped believing in false gods?

][cEMAN**

Originally posted by Superman
Remember folks in the 60's and 70's we thought we would be living in domes on the moon by 2000!

Some of us are. They're just padded domes...

MrNuked

How desperate would I have to be to blow myself up along with a load of random people just to make a point? I wouldn't no matter how desperate I was. Because I'm not brainwashed and full of mindless hate, and doing that won't make me a hero or guarantee me a place in heaven.
How desperate were the Kamikazee pilots in WW2? I don't think they were all that oppressed by the Americans were they?

Irish people are extremely violent for a developed nation. The typical American living outside of the worst areas has never seen a fight outside of sport. Two schoolkids trying to knock the head off each other in Ireland is vaguely amusing not particularly frowned upon and will rarely result in punishment. In America it's shocking and would result in heavy disciplininary action and probably the segregation of any repeat-offenders. [Also Irish people make better boxers than any other white people. Muhammed Ali has an Irish (great?) grandparent.]
Irish people do drink way too much. When an Irish people drink with foreigners they are typically underwhelmed by their inferior capacity for alcohol. Except for some Asians who are genetically less able to handle drink, this is because Irish people drink more than others, in particular we binge-drink more than others.

seamus

Originally posted by MrNuked
How desperate would I have to be to blow myself up along with a load of random people just to make a point? I wouldn't no matter how desperate I was. Because I'm not brainwashed and full of mindless hate, and doing that won't make me a hero or guarantee me a place in heaven.
How desperate were the Kamikazee pilots in WW2? I don't think they were all that oppressed by the Americans were they?

Irish people are extremely violent for a developed nation. The typical American living outside of the worst areas has never seen a fight outside of sport. Two schoolkids trying to knock the head off each other in Ireland is vaguely amusing not particularly frowned upon and will rarely result in punishment. In America it's shocking and would result in heavy disciplininary action and probably the segregation of any repeat-offenders. [Also Irish people make better boxers than any other white people. Muhammed Ali has an Irish (great?) grandparent.]
Irish people do drink way too much. When an Irish people drink with foreigners they are typically underwhelmed by their inferior capacity for alcohol. Except for some Asians who are genetically less able to handle drink, this is because Irish people drink more than others, in particular we binge-drink more than others.

Sorry, what was that? All I can hear are noises coming from your arse.