crossroad right of way

kaiphas

Hi,

Can somebody settle a bet for me. When on a crossroad turning left and facing you a car is turning right, who has the right of way (assuming no traffic is on the other road - ie only the two cars facing each other on the juction). Is it the car turning left that has the right-of way as it doesn't have to cross the junction to make the manouver (ie they can just go left keeping in beside the kerb all the way) or is it the car turning right (as in always yield to the car coming form the right).

ChipZilla

The car that doesn't have to cross the road would have right of way, I'd say. But I'll wait to be proven wrong...:D

Cucullan

Originally posted by ChipZilla
The car that doesn't have to cross the road would have right of way, I'd say. But I'll wait to be proven wrong...:D

I'd imagine that'd be the case too....

highdef

Yeah. I'd go along with that too

Duckjob

In a standard crossroads the car turning left always has the right-of-way in this situation, BUT....

There are crossroads for example at Raheny village where, as you are turning left (comming from town), there is a traffic island on your right. This actually causes the 'give way to traffic from your right' rule to apply, and therefore gives right of way to traffic that may have just turned right on the junction.

Effectively, in that situation, you are then joining a road which the right-turning traffic has already gotten on to, so you have to yield.

mike65

If unsure flash them and wait!

Mike.

a_ominous

Yez are all wrong. And I got the question wrong in my test last year. Which is a very worrying thing. :eek:
But I've had a look at the Rules of The Road and it's a bit fuzzy on the point. What you are supposed to do at a junction of roads with equal importance is to treat it like a roundabout and yield the right of way traffic coming from the right. So the guy turning right has the right of way.

Funnily enough I was talking to some of the family over the past week and they didn't realise that they're supposed to give right of way to pedestrians.

But the ROTR is cr@p at explaining these things. Surely it's time for a re-write (last edition was printed in 1992). We've got motorways now. Explain things like do not cross a continuous white line: that means you do _not_ have the right to overtake a parked vehicle causing an oncoming vehicle to drive into a ditch or kids playing at the side of the road. You do not park beside a continuous while line. If there is traffic trying to join a motorway, move into overtaking lane to allow cars to merge at motorway speeds, etc. etc., etc. :dunno:

seamus

I'm not entirely sure here. I'd always assumed that the car turning left has the right-of-way, unless it's one of those traffic island situations - You always have the right-of-way (to continue) when oncoming traffic wishes to turn right. Now, the oncoming traffic knows this, and is supposed to wait until the road is they are waiting to cross is clear. Further to this, if a vehicle is approaching you, with it's indicator on, you are supposed to wait until it begins the turn, before taking action, i.e. you assume it's not turning until it does.

So keeping these two things in mind, imagine the car turning right has right-of-way. Now, we have car A. He's sitting there, indicating to turn right, waiting for an oncoming car, which has indicated left, we'll call it car B. Now, car A is supposed to assume that that car B is coming straight on, despite his indication. Therefore, this assumption means that he must give car B right-of-way. However, once car B begins his left-hand turn, car A now has right-of-way, even though car B is halfway through his turn, and by default, has 'stolen' right-of-way, because he is in control of the road. So effectively, even though we've assumed that car A has right-of-way, at no point in the exchange does he actually have right-of-way, so the two must clash.

So, as I see it, the car turning left has right-of-way at all times.

Feel free to correct me.

ShriekingSheet

I reckon IN THEORY, the strict letter of the law gives the right turner right of way as seamus pointed out but IN PRACTICE the left turner always goes first- in my experience it's a generally accepted order!

seamus

Originally posted by ShriekingSheet
I reckon IN THEORY, the strict letter of the law gives the right turner right of way as seamus pointed out but IN PRACTICE the left turner always goes first- in my experience it's a generally accepted order!

Actually, I pointed out that the law probably is in favour of the left-turners. Learn to read, like

Hagar

This is scarey.
If any of you guys drive a car, stop now and get out.
You should not be on the road if you do not know the Rules of Road.
Get a copy, read it, learn it. Only then should you get back in the car.
By the way have any of you guys ever complained about the cost of insurance?

seamus

Someone scan in the page there, put it all to rest.

What is the answer btw Hagar?

seamus

Originally posted by a_ominous
Yez are all wrong. And I got the question wrong in my test last year. Which is a very worrying thing. :eek:
But I've had a look at the Rules of The Road and it's a bit fuzzy on the point. What you are supposed to do at a junction of roads with equal importance is to treat it like a roundabout and yield the right of way traffic coming from the right. So the guy turning right has the right of way.

(Sorry, just reread this) That's where the mistake comes in. You give way to traffic coming from the right, i.e. entering the junction from your right. Traffic turning right, is entering the junction from directly ahead of you. Traffic turning right must give way to oncoming traffic, which, technically, a left-turning vehicle is, as I said.

You can't treat it as a roundabout, because Irish law says that all traffic entering a roundabout must turn left first

Hagar

Your last post is on the money Seamus.

Any chance some of you other guys would tie a red balloon onto your car aerial so that the rest of use can be warned of your approach.

Victor

Originally posted by a_ominous
But I've had a look at the Rules of The Road and it's a bit fuzzy on the point. What you are supposed to do at a junction of roads with equal importance is to treat it like a roundabout and yield the right of way traffic coming from the right. So the guy turning right has the right of way.

:dunno: You are also on his right, so he has to yield to you.

I'm very much with the person turning left having right of way in this situation (specificly an equal junction), in particular as he doesn't cross any other traffic flow.

If you are to treat it as a situation where there is a roundabout, the right-turning driver can't get to the far side of the roundabout in time to have right of way over the left turner.

a_ominous

So do you do where there is an actual roundabout? If both drivers waited no-one would move. But it the driver turning left can do so safely before the driver turning right, he should do so. Otherwise he's not making good progress. Which is a fault on the driving test IIRC.

Seamus where does the ROTR say

that all traffic entering a roundabout must turn left first

If there is traffic on the roundabout you have to yield the right of way to them.
But I do agree with the comments that in practice the car turning left will do so first but this is not what driver tester said to me at the bike test last year. I think it might be to get a stationary vehicle out of the middle of the road quickly where it would pose a significant risk to other road-users. But I could be wrong.

I still say the ROTR are rubbish. Lots of ambiguity and not up to date. Should be revised on a 5 year basis.
</FX "I'll get me coat">

sceptre

The ROTR may not make the point about the roundabout but if I remember rightly it was one of the first amendments made to the Road Traffic Act (silly sods left it out in the original act)

seamus

Originally posted by a_ominous
So do you do where there is an actual roundabout? If both drivers waited no-one would move. But it the driver turning left can do so safely before the driver turning right, he should do so. Otherwise he's not making good progress. Which is a fault on the driving test IIRC.

Surely you mean, if the driver turning right can make it safely he should do so? When there is an actual roundabout, "Traffic waiting to enter the roundabout must give way to traffic already on the roundabout". Simple as that.

Seamus where does the ROTR say

It's actually in there, I was surprised. One of the road traffic acts says it. Look in the section in the ROTR on roundabouts.

But I do agree with the comments that in practice the car turning left will do so first but this is not what driver tester said to me at the bike test last year. I think it might be to get a stationary vehicle out of the middle of the road quickly where it would pose a significant risk to other road-users. But I could be wrong.

That's.....weird. The ROTR states that a car should position itself at the midway point of the road it is turning onto, and wait until the way is clear. Maybe what your tester was referring to was progress - a stationary vehicle is an obstruction sure, but causing the obstruction is unavoidable until you have a clear path to turn. Staying where you are when there is sufficient time to turn incurs penalties.

I still say the ROTR are rubbish. Lots of ambiguity and not up to date. Should be revised on a 5 year basis.
</FX "I'll get me coat">

Absolutely. The lack of advice about motorway driving is laughable. Although it could be argued that learners shouldn't be on the motorway, so why do we need it in the ROTR, but that's another ridiculous Irish issue altogether. Irish roads have changed a lot in the last 10 years. The amount of information that's either missing, or not entirely relevant in that book is staggering.

a_ominous

Seamus, the ROTR section on roundabouts, pp 33 of the edition I have (18th ed printed FEb 2002) says
a driver shall enter a roundabout by turning to the left" (their bold print)
This means that the driver should go around the roundabout clockwise, not that the driver turning left has priority! Yikes!

[quiet day at work for you too, huh?]

seamus

Originally posted by a_ominous
Seamus, the ROTR section on roundabouts, pp 33 of the edition I have (18th ed printed FEb 2002) says
a driver shall enter a roundabout by turning to the left" (their bold print)
This means that the driver should go around the roundabout clockwise, not that the driver turning left has priority! Yikes!

Ah, now I see where we got crossed. You were saying that it should be treated like a roundabout, so the driver turning right should have ROW. I meant that the driver wishing to turn right doesn't turn left before he enters the junction, so it can't be treated like a roundabout.

[quiet day at work for you too, huh?]

Quiet month

kaiphas

so basically what you're saying is that in practice the car going left can do so until there is an accident. Theh the car from the right (that is now mashed) can claim from me going to the left.

I want to get this right as not being a boy racer or jeep driver I am legally obliged to adhere to the rules of the road

seamus

Originally posted by kaiphas
so basically what you're saying is that in practice the car going left can do so until there is an accident. Theh the car from the right (that is now mashed) can claim from me going to the left.

I want to get this right as not being a boy racer or jeep driver I am legally obliged to adhere to the rules of the road

No, the car turning left has right of way.
As per the rules of the road, p. 37

Where two vehicles coming from opposite directions are turning into the same road, the vehicle turning right should give way to the vehicle turning left

(I was in work all day and unsurprisingly don't keep a copy of the ROTR in there )

PBC_1966

For what it's worth, in the U.K. it's perfectly clear in this situation: The vehicle turning left has right of way, and the driver wanting to turn right must wait.

In practice, when the driver turning left (or even continuing straight on) is in slow-moving traffic and can see somebody stuck in the middle of the road waiting to turn right across his path, it's fairly common for him to hold back and flash his lights to let the right-turning car go first. (That's unofficial, of course.)

I seem to remember reading somewhere that at least one Australian state (Victoria?) actually gives right-of-way to the right-turning vehicle in this situation.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by PBC_1966

In practice, when the driver turning left (or even continuing straight on) is in slow-moving traffic and can see somebody stuck in the middle of the road waiting to turn right across his path, it's fairly common for him to hold back and flash his lights to let the right-turning car go first. (That's unofficial, of course.)

Yep it sometimes happens here too, although if you were doing your driving test and you thanked the driver who let you go, you'd be failed, as my father found out many years ago...something about taking his hands off the wheel!

PBC_1966

Crazy, considering that you have to take your hands off the wheel to change gear, switch on the wipers, or carry out any number of other essential tasks while driving, but then offcialdom is seldom very logical!

The official position here is that flashing headlights have only one meaning:- To let another road user know you are there. However, the fact that the Highway Code even acknowledges that flash-to-let-other-driver-go exists shows just how widely it is used here.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/07.shtml#90

Tommy Vercetti

flashing headlights here usually means you want to punch the other driver

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
flashing headlights here usually means you want to punch the other driver

Yeah, I used to get funny looks off car drivers in Ireland when I'd flash them to let them pull out or pull across me in slow traffic.

Truck drivers knew what I meant for some reason... Or maybe they just didn't give a s**te and were coming into my space regardless

seamus

Originally posted by ChipZilla
Yeah, I used to get funny looks off car drivers in Ireland when I'd flash them to let them pull out or pull across me in slow traffic.

That's weird. I've never driven anywhere but Ireland, and I flash to let people know they can go. A lot of people are very bad at pulling across when you let them though. They hesitate much more readily.

Victor

The RoTR say that at an equal junction traffic turning right must yield to traffic turning left.

"Where two vehicles coming from opposite directions are turning into the same road, the vehicle turning right should give way to the vehicle turning left."