Just how bad it is for FF

Victor

I did some calculations over the last few days. FF no longer control any of the main (i.e. county and city) councils, while FG control Longford (50+%) and Cork (50%) county councils. With Labour and Green support, FG can control about half the councils, while the other half are largely dependent on independents and mini-parties (e.g. the Healy-Rae South Kerry Independent Alliance) and could fall either way. Some counties like Donegal will possible fall to a FF/SF alliance

I'll post some tables tomorrow, but the main tallies (subject to a check on Roscommon which voted on Saturday) are as follows:

FF 298 down 84
FG 290 up 13
Labour 101 up 18
SF 54 up 33
Green 19 up 11
17 down 8
96 up 9

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/06/20/story153237.html

FG councillors to form 'rainbow coalitions'
20/06/2004 - 12:10:12

Fine Gael has told its councillors around the country to enter a coalition with Labour, the Greens and independents.

Several councils controlled by Fianna Fáil for decades could swing to rainbow or "civic alliances" after a weekend of political trading.

Seven local authorities look likely to be controlled by a Fine Gael-Labour partnership while a further five are expected to be ruled by a civic alliance of the two parties with and the Greens and independents.

de5p0i1er

I'm glad to see them fall, they've done nothing to help the ppl of this country while they've been in power all I've seen them do is let inflation go up while they've given themselfs pay-rises to match and let the rest of us suffer the economic down turn. I hope they get hammered at the next election.

mneylon

It's nice to see them lose ground, but who offers a viable alternative?

Victor

Sorry about being tardy with this.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-1151373,00.html

Fine Gael approves local council coalitions

FINE GAEL has told its 294 councillors to enter a coalition with Labour, the Greens and independents in dozens of local authorities, writes Stephen O’Brien.
Enda Kenny’s party has been forbidden from doing town hall deals with Fianna Fail, and there is no question of it sharing power with Sinn Fein.

Tom Curran, the party’s general secretary, said Kenny began telling prospective councillors 18 months ago that they would be expected to form rainbow alliances at local level with the Greens and Labour. “This is not coming as a surprise to any of our members,” said Curran.

As a weekend of political trading gets under way, seven local authorities look like being run by Fine Gael/Labour partnerships, and a further five are likely to be controlled by a “civic alliance” of Fine Gael, Labour and independents.

Fine Gael has won outright control of two county councils — Cork and Longford — where it is unlikely to deal with other parties. The support of an independent, formerly of Fine Gael, is needed to clinch the Cork county deal.

The line-up on Fingal council allows a renewal of the long-standing and controversial Fianna Fail/Fine Gael alliance in north Dublin. But, keen to break from echoes of past planning corruption, Curran said: “We do not want that relationship.”

Fingal is the only council where a Fine Gael/Labour/Green alliance is likely. The two larger parties are not expected to seek agreement with the Greens in county councils where they do not need their numbers to secure an overall majority. These include Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown, Carlow, Kilkenny and Waterford. Fine Gael and Labour are also expected to coalesce in Mayo, Sligo and Westmeath where there are no Green councillors.

In a pre-election interview with The Sunday Times, Trevor Sargent, the Green party leader, said he wanted Fine Gael and Labour to dump Fianna Fail from power in local authorities before he could consider any national government coalition pact.

Several councils controlled by Fianna Fail for decades could swing to rainbow or “civic alliances” after the political horse-trading. Kerry, Galway, Kildare, Laois and Westmeath county council could swing to a Fine Gael/Labour or Fine Gael/Labour/independent “civic alliance”.

Fianna Fail’s strength has fallen to 11 of the 27 councillors on Kerry county council, where Fine Gael has eight, Labour two, Sinn Fein two with four independents including Michael and Danny Healy-Rae. It will remain Fianna Fail-controlled unless the Healy-Raes vote against the party, former political home of their father Jackie Healy-Rae, an independent TD.

Sinn Fein’s 10-seat tally on Dublin city council puts the party in the position of potential king-makers, although a civic alliance between Fine Gael, Labour, the Greens and independents is more likely.

Cork

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
I'm glad to see them fall, they've done nothing to help the ppl of this country while they've been in power all I've seen them do is let inflation go up while they've given themselfs pay-rises to match and let the rest of us suffer the economic down turn. I hope they get hammered at the next election.

Inflation is now pretty low. Trade unions have even agreed to a 5% pay tise over 18 months.

they've done nothing to help the ppl of this country

Compare the unemployment rate with previous governments or with other countrys across the EU.

they've given themselfs pay-rises to match and let the rest of us suffer the economic down turn.

All public servants got pay increases. Ireland has a pretty low unemployment and inflation rate. This is FACT.

The FF/PD government has been the most successful since the foundation of the state. Sure, there is more to do. But this government has a mandate for another 4 years to reorganise our health system.

Fair play- that they looked at health in a strategic rather than a party political manner.

arcadegame2004

I agree with Cork that the FF-PD Government was one of the most successful in the State economically. When they came to power unemployment was 10%, and is now 4.4%. I greatly welcome the privatisations (although there has been none in the second term) and the huge tax-cuts.

I did always vote FF since I got the vote in 1998, but I didn't vote for them in the Euro and Local elections. I voted FG, partly because I regard them as a far less corrupt party than FF, Lowry and Cosgrave notwithstanding. Also, they are a centrist party, and I felt that they could act as a moderating influence over Labour and the Greens at local-council and perhaps national level.

FF lost support because of a perception of broken promises, together with endless allegations of corruption, especially at local-council level. Their loss in support has NOTHING to do with the liberal economic policies they pursued during their time in office. If it had, then they would not have won re-election in 2002 - remember that the 1997-2002 period was the period of this Government that was far more liberal economically (in economic policy, liberal and conservative tend to mean the same thing)m e,g, privatisatons of Eircom, TSB, ACC and ICC, huge income-tax reductions. This was only 2 years ago, so it cannot be said then that the fall in FF support was due to a perception that the PD's had too much influence in the Government. If anything the lack of progress in terms of bringing competition into the Dublin bus-market, and the continuing ridiculously high cost of motor insurance increased voter discontent with them. I agree then with Mary Harney's point about the lack of progress is making important decisions.

Policy has very little to do with FF's loss in support. It is corruption and broken promises. I felt in 2002, around the time when the media started accusing FF of "cuts" that this was an unfair criticism. They were not actually reducing spending on Health. They were increasing it but by say 12% instead of 17%. That is hardly a "cut", but tell that to the media looking for a good controversy to increase the ratings. However, I began to feel that FF needed to be punished when it emerged that Michael Woods had been sending out letters to schools promising money before the General Election which then did not arrive. And then the promise of ending waiting-lists within 2 years proved to be a broken promise also. When Ahern was reminded of this promise on TV, he almost seemed to laugh it off and I found that to be very arrogant of him. He could at least have tried to make excuses like "we didn't know the economy would slow down as much".

If you have local-councils controlled by one party for 70 years then of course you are going to have corruption, as the authorities develop cosy relationships with property-developers and then rezone land to suit the interests of those developers. The Mahon Tribunal is due to investigate allegations that the rezoning of land that led to the M50 being routed through Carrickmines castle were a result of corruption. It looks very much like it was, and that raises equally disturbing questions about the likely fate other national-monuments currently under threat e.g. 6000 year old monuments on Tara Hill, the newly-discovered Viking town of Waterford, together with the motivations behind the destruction of the Viking site at Wood Quay in Dublin during the 1980's.

Whatever about their success at national level, there can be little denying the scandalous behaviour of many FF local-councillors, and I especially relished the opportunity to punish them by voting FG a few weeks ago. I did not transfer to Labour or the Greens, however, and I will not do so in future unless Labour make the same transition to centrist politics that Tony Blair's Labour did in the UK (in economic policy I mean) and unless Labour gets tough on illegal-immigration. Same with Greens. I advise people who intend voting against FF at the next election - those of them who are against leftism - to vote FG in order to move the centre-of-gravity of such a government to the centre, as opposed to the hard-left.

Cork

I will not do so in future unless Labour make the same transition to centrist politics that Tony Blair's Labour did in the UK

Some Left Wing party want to increase capital gains tax. This will lead to higher house prices as investors will not put them on the market.

Some Left Wing party want to increase capital gains tax. This will lead to lee US FDI.

Some Left Wing party want to increase personal taxation to spend more on nonsense like a baby bond.

Man Time

I'm sorry to say this but I'd rather see FF in control than Fine Gael and their bunch of moroans and that idiot leader Enda Kenny

arcadegame2004

Yes Cork, but Labour would likely have to tone down some of these ideas in order to get a coalition agreement with FG.

arcadegame2004

Actually, it's interesting to note that the PD share of the vote actually ROSE in these elections. They lost 25% of their councillors but that was down to transfers. More evidence that it isn't policy per-se that irritated the voters.

AngelofFire

Didnt this government increase capital gain taxes at the end of last year?

And whats wrong with increasing the higher rate of taxation if it means having a better A&E Service and more money for those with special needs without asking the wealthy to alter their lifestyle at all.The government continued policy of low taxation in the context of this current economic condition means that they would rather see the rich maintain their massive wealth than give money to the people who need it the most.

Whats wrong with a baby bond. If it gives people from disadvantaged backgrounds a better start when they turn 18,it could probably help to obliterate some of the factors that lead to poverty and social excluded

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Didnt this government increase capital gain taxes at the end of last year?

And whats wrong with increasing the higher rate of taxation if it means having a better A&E Service and more money for those with special needs without asking the wealthy to alter their lifestyle at all.The government continued policy of low taxation in the context of this current economic condition means that they would rather see the rich maintain their massive wealth than give money to the people who need it the most.

Whats wrong with a baby bond. If it gives people from disadvantaged backgrounds a better start when they turn 18,it could probably help to obliterate some of the factors that lead to poverty and social excluded

I understand that a few years ago the Government slashed the capital-gains tax-rate from 40% to 20%, actually resulting in a dramatic rise in revenue from that source. So with all due respect, I think you are being over-simplistic in assuming that higher rates-of-tax automatically equate to higher revenue.

In my opinion people who turn up drunk every weekend (we know it happens) at A+E wards should be forced to pay for their treatment because they got themselves into that situation themselves through their own choice, i.e. drinking to get drunk. That would bring in additional money for the health-service.

Also, althought I despise most of what Labour stands for, 1 of the few policies of theirs I agree with was their idea of compulsory health-insurance. I agree with that, provided it is via private schemes and not state ones. The VHI I see is back again demanding that Michael Martin lets it raise its premium for the umpteenth time. Shows how inefficient state-owned companies are.

On the baby-bond, with all due respect, having been 18 myself, I am not at all sure that an 18 year old will spend that money wisely.

LFCFan

How can anyone think that FF were/are good for this country? They just happened to be in power when there was a lot of money doing the rounds. 10% Corp. tax and other incentives that were around before this government are the reason for so many multi nationals setting up over here. Even with all this extra money in the country we still have a poor roads infrastructure, a shambles of a health service and Ireland has become one of the most expensive countries in the EU.

As house prices have risen all FF have done is add to the problem by increasing VAT and levies.

They say they want to promote competition yet they slap a €40 levy on Credit Cards, which makes competition among CC companies a lot harder.

They refuse to do anything about the Cartels that operate in the country (e.g. Pharmacies, Pubs etc).

They pump money into the likes of Punchestown when there are newly built hospitals unopened because of lack of funding. There are schools falling apart and overrun with vermin because money promised hasn't materialised.

2,000 extra Gardai haven't materialised either and there is still no sign of a Traffic Corps.

We have an over priced, late Tram system about to open that will do squat for the over burdened traffic system in Dublin.

We have a field in Abbotstown that has cost umpteen million Euro to build nothing on when we should have a national stadium.

Crime is higher than ever before. Corruption within FF is rife.

The streets are still filthy with rubbish.

Car insurance is still a major problem despite all sorts of claims from the Government about wanting to do something about it. We are hit with an illegal tax (VRT) when buying a car.

We have the some of the highest stealth taxes in the world.

Our phone system is a joke because €ircon have been allowed to run it in to the ground for profit and now our competitiveness is suffering because of it.

Parents are forced into paying rip-off prices for Crèches and the government refuse to allow tax relief even though some people are paying more for a crèche than they do for their mortgage.

The FTBG was abolished by this government just to make it even harder for young people to get on the property ladder. Time to build after planning permission was granted has been reduced from 5 to 2 years despite advice against it.

The list goes on and on and while all this crap was happening our wonderful TD's have been giving themselves massive pay rises way beyond inflation and they continue to rape their expense accounts. I for one am SICK to death of FF and what they have done to Ireland. People say the alternative isn't much better. How do we know till we kick this lot of corrupt crap out of Leinster House and give someone else a chance. I'll tell you one thing, they couldn't possibly be any worse.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I

Also, althought I despise most of what Labour stands for, 1 of the few policies of theirs I agree with was their idea of compulsory health-insurance. I agree with that, provided it is via private schemes and not state ones. The VHI I see is back again demanding that Michael Martin lets it raise its premium for the umpteenth time. Shows how inefficient state-owned companies are.

I still think it would be a lot better in the long run to reform the health service so that public money is spent on improving the service itself rather than making some consultants rich.It will be better in the long run to see that all A&E services are upgraded and that all appropriate heart care,radiography services etc are in place in each hospital. Making healthcare a business commoditee will only create a two tier health system like in america.Proper reform of the health servcie could alleviate the need for private insurance.

Sleepy

How can any of ye FF'ers honestly state that your party were a competent government?

The only people Fiann Fail have helped have been themselves and their cronies. The boom was not created by the government of the time, in fact the seeds of our economic boom were sown by TK Whitaker many years before.

Victor

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Didnt this government increase capital gain taxes at the end of last year?

Did they, they might have done some minor adjustments, but work (despite Mary Harney's claims) is still taxed more than wheeling-dealing.

DublinWriter

FF lie uimbhir a haoin is that they are the party of low taxation. They expect us to forget about PRSI, one of the highest VAT rates in Europe, exise duties on spirts, housing stamp duty, the highest annual road tax rates in Europe...I could go on.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Councils. The real power lies in Leinster House. The councils in this country hold very little power because they basically don't get much of a budget to use.

For example, Sligo council has a total annual budget of €13.6 million. Guess what Sligo council's annual wage/salary bill is? €13.4 million.

arcadegame2004

Originally quoted by AngelofFire
I still think it would be a lot better in the long run to reform the health service so that public money is spent on improving the service itself rather than making some consultants rich.It will be better in the long run to see that all A&E services are upgraded and that all appropriate heart care,radiography services etc are in place in each hospital. Making healthcare a business commoditee will only create a two tier health system like in america.Proper reform of the health servcie could alleviate the need for private insurance.

AngelofFire, did you know that literally 100% of revenue from income-tax goes to the Health-Service? It is true. And as the population ages, the ratio of the numbers of taxpayers-to-pensioners in Ireland is inevitably going to fall. You need therefore, to face up to the fact that in the long run, a Health-Service funded almost entirely through taxes will not be sustainable.

The Health Service at present has, as several posters on this BB point out correctly, many problems. Bed-closures. Downgrading of facilities in hospitals through the country. All of this is happening NOW. It is happening now, even before my proposal is brought into being by some future government (assuming one eventually does).

First of all, let us ask ourselves why these problems are happening at a time when Health-Service spending has been doubled since 1997.

Inefficiency and waste of resouces are one reason. The Brennan report discovered HUGE waste of Health-Service money on bureaucrats, overtime and other administrative issues. The Hanley report correctly also identified wasteful duplication of resources. We have a demand among much of the Irish public for every hospital to have every facility, regardless of how few patients are using that hospital. The Hanly report is right to insist that it is financially more sustainable to centralise, in each major region, much of the facilities of the Health-Service. Otherwise, we will continue to see the unaffordability of having "every hospital having every service" manifested in bed-closures, downgrading of hospitals etc. Money does not grow on trees. It has to come from somewhere. It is LITERALLY the case that 100% of income-tax paid by Irish taxpayer's goes to the Health-Service at present. The problem is not how much we are paying the Health-Service (at least not at present). The problem is that it is not being spent right. The Health-Boards (thankfully abolished now) contributed to that with constant political interference by the politicians on those boards, some of whom took decisions based on local electoral considerations i.e. more facilities should go to hospitals in MY area etc. Unfortunately, in spite of the abolition of the boards, I believe new (but fewer) similar local bodies are due to be established. I hope politicians are not allowed to dominated those in the way they did the Health-Boards.

Also, in the LONG run, as the population continues to age and hence as the ratio of taxpayers-to-pensioners continues to fall, the Health-Service will clearly face an increasing strain on its resources, and taxation at current rates will be insufficient to deal with it. What is the solution then for the long-term? In my firm opinion compulsory private Health-Insurance for those who can afford it is the answer. Bringing the profit-motive into the Health-Service will insure an end to long waiting-lists, as the Health-Service will now have a financial incentive to treat patients (rather than patients being seen as an economic burden). This would greatly free up resources for the State to provide health-care for those who cannot afford health-insurance, and the whole thing becomes far more affordable. I am so fed up with the Left's demonisation of profit. Would they prefer loss? Yet they rant on about how "successful" semi-states' like Aer Rianta are because they make a profit. If profit can be turned into an incentive to treat patients, then I say let it do so. Stop demonising profit just for the sake of it. We're talking about the Health-Service here not some oil-company.

Originally posted by DublinWriter
I wouldn't worry too much about the Councils. The real power lies in Leinster House. The councils in this country hold very little power because they basically don't get much of a budget to use.

I feel that most of the corruption in this country goes on at local-government level. The Flood/Mahon tribunal has made that clear from all the brown-paper envelopes handed to councillors in return for their votes on rezoning land, to the detriment of our national monuments. Despite Labour's prating and complaining about the recent amending-legislation to the National Monuments Act, I recall clearly their last time in government and they weren't so concerned about protecting our heritage back then. Greedy property developers didn't only start destroying national monuments since 1997 you know.

Originally posted by Sleepy
The only people Fianna Fail have helped have been themselves and their cronies. The boom was not created by the government of the time, in fact the seeds of our economic boom were sown by TK Whitaker many years before.

But TK Whitaker wrote that book in 1958!!!! He was not responsible for actually implementing it. He advocated free trade, with increased competition and the end of protectionism, and it took decades for that to happen. The free trade ended when a FF government took us into the EEC. The FG-Labour government of the 1980's were a time of 20% inflation (far worse than anything we have now), massive strikes, and caving into the Unions with their insatiable demands for 50% pay-rises. It is an historical fact that FF began the 10% corporation-tax rate in 1989, and it is furthermore an historical fact that they greatly furthered competition by liberalising the telecom-sector, privatising TSB, ACC, ICC, and Eircom, as well as the deregulation of the taxi-industry. Had Labour been in office all of these - including the decision that increases tax-licenses from 4,000 to 15,000, would probably not have happened, especially given Labour's entrenched hatred of competition and consumer choice. They think that they know what's good for the consumer better than the consumer does themselves. They think it is somehow good for the consumer to have no choice as to who they get their electricity/gas etc. from. Mr.Rabbitte, I'll thank you to mind your own business!

You only have to look at the ESB situation now as a case-in-point. Their employees are paid unbelievably high salaries, (122,000 euro per annum!), yet their trade-unions are demanding an 18% payrise, or they will go on strike. Is it right that trade-unions in ESB should be able to hold the entire nation to ransom over their pay claim? Of course not. We shouldn't allow this nonsense any longer. Let the people choose which company we get our electricity from, not unelected trade-union bosses in their ivory towers.

LFCFan

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
It is an historical fact that FF began the 10% corporation-tax rate in 1989, and it is furthermore an historical fact that they greatly furthered competition by liberalising the telecom-sector, privatising TSB, ACC, ICC, and Eircom, as well as the deregulation of the taxi-industry.

I don't deny that FF did good work in the past but we're not talking about past FF governments. In fact, you have just pinpointed the biggest problem this country has and that's voting for Parties based on past successes. The present FF government are and have been a scourge on this nation and should not have been voted back in. Also, FF's decision to sell off TE has ended up being one of the worst privatisation decisions ever made. Out Telecoms infrastructure has been destroyed by greed which in turn is affecting our competitivness.

DublinWriter

Originally posted by Cork
Fair play- that they looked at health in a strategic rather than a party political manner.

Bullsh*t.

I remeber Jonathan Bowman grilling Weseàl Martin on Q&A last year about why he was proposing to override one of the recommendations of the Hanley report.

Hanley proposed closing a specalist heart unit because another similar unit was operating close by, but Weseàl decided to over-ride this recommendation.

The unit Hanley was proposing to be closed down just happened to be in Bertie's consitituancy.

Sleepy

Originally posted by LFCFan
I don't deny that FF did good work in the past but we're not talking about past FF governments. In fact, you have just pinpointed the biggest problem this country has and that's voting for Parties based on past successes. The present FF government are and have been a scourge on this nation and should not have been voted back in.

*aplauds* Thanks for making my point for me.

arcadegame2004, I must admit your name is apt for discussing a government who've played with the country like I would have SimCity when I was 12. You made my point for me, TK Whitaker wrote that book in 1958 and this is where the origins of the Celtic Tiger can be traced to. I have no problems with admitting they were implemented by a FF government, it's fact that they were. That government, however, is a very far cry from today's charlatans. Of all parties, FF should realise that it can't stand on historical achievements because their policies change with the wind. To blame the FG-Labour government of the 1980's for the worldwide recession of the time is just as ludicrous as it is to acclaim the FF-PD government of the 90's for the worldwide boom that the Celtic Tiger happened to be at the crest of.

Originally posted by LFCFan
Also, FF's decision to sell off TE has ended up being one of the worst privatisation decisions ever made. Out Telecoms infrastructure has been destroyed by greed which in turn is affecting our competitivness..

The decision to sell was a good one, the handling of it was atrocious. Instead of simply floating the company we really should have looked at flogging it lock stock and broken barrels to a private consideration who actually knew how to run a business instead of basically handing the company to a management and staff who hadn't a bulls notion of what they were doing in the first place.

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004


Also, in the LONG run, as the population continues to age and hence as the ratio of taxpayers-to-pensioners continues to fall, the Health-Service will clearly face an increasing strain on its resources, and taxation at current rates will be insufficient to deal with it. What is the solution then for the long-term?

Well, one solution would be to relax our immigration policy to allow young non-nationals into the country who are less likely to postpone building a family until later in their life.

But then we all know you're not an enthusiastic supporter of large scale immigration...

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
It is LITERALLY the case that 100% of income-tax paid by Irish taxpayer's goes to the Health-Service at present.

Thats an easy argument to make, but only because income tax rates have come down at the same time as health spending has increased. I see you conveniantly ignored increases in indirect taxation when doing your sums.

sceptre

Dum dee dum. I might make a post later. Anyone who's interested in picking holes in the "historical fact of 1989" might do well to have a flick through the Finance Act of 1980, examining the tax rate for manufacturing income introduced that year, check out the actual date the EU OKed the reduced corpo tax rate for the IFSC and check out the non-manufacturing corporation tax rates all through the 80s and 90s. Non-traded commodities as well. While yer at it, you might do a double-check on the manufacturing tax system we had prior to 1981 and why the EC didn't like it, leading to the manufacturing tax rate we introduced that year. References to production and consumption linkages would be good I suppose.

With regard to the idea that nothing was done about Whitaker's report, a quick look at the First Programme For Economic Expansion from November 1958 might be worthwhile, the Second Programme from 1963 (when we got balls of brass only to find out they were hollow), the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement of 1965, the tariff cuts of 1963 and 1964, the virtuous circle of economic development in the mid-sixties as a result of the First Programme (obviously especially in regard to labour productivity) and the final dumping of all import tariffs from other EC member States in 1977 as well as our 15-year tax holidays on manufacturing income prior to 1981. Knock in the EC membership too, though I assume we're all familiar with that. Obviously feel free to make reference to the oil crises (the world economy being especially important due to our export-rate growth strategy from the mid-seventies onwards), particularly the second one as Sleepy has already done.

I'll leave the whole Eircom thing for someone who hasn't explained it 25 times already.

arcadegame2004

But then we all know you're not an enthusiastic supporter of large scale immigration...

Nor are 79% of the population. I am not opposed to letting some in on work-permits to fill vacancies caused by skills-shortages where Irish and EU citizens aren' available to fill those vacancies. But I find it hard to believe that very many of those work-permits will be needed after EU enlargement and the freedom of movement it involves. Thankfully the social-welfare restrictions brought in for citizens of other EU states should deter welfare tourists from those countries, and hopefully those who would use our asylum-processes for non-refugee purposes will be deterred by the recent, and long overdue, change to the Constitution, ratified by the Irish people in their wisdom.

Originally posted by Sceptre
Obviously feel free to make reference to the oil crises (the world economy being especially important due to our export-rate growth strategy from the mid-seventies onwards), particularly the second one as Sleepy has already done.

I wouldn't excuse FG-Labour for their failure to stop inflation getting out of all control on the basis of the oil-crisis of the 1970's. It was the old-fashioned wage-price spiral that caused this inflation in the 1980's. Union demands 50% pay-rise, and then they got it. Thus encourages loads more strikes. I hope that if a FG-Labour government is elected next time, that Labour will move to the centre because we don't want a return to wage-price spirals, or tax-and-spend policies thank you very much. Irish people already pay too much tax.

sceptre

Can I assume that, given that you ignoresd the greater part of my post that had a hint of meat to come in it, that you've discovered the booboos you made about the introduction of the 10% manufacturing corporation tax rate and the attempted implementation of Ken Whitaker's Grey Book report? Find out what Ken's job was at the time?

earwicker

Originally posted by sceptre
Can I assume that, given that you ignoresd the greater part of my post that had a hint of meat to come in it, that you've discovered the booboos you made about the introduction of the 10% manufacturing corporation tax rate and the attempted implementation of Ken Whitaker's Grey Book report? Find out what Ken's job was at the time?

Sceptre: don't leave those of us interested in your thoughts hanging. I'd start googling only I wouldn't know where to start after your previous post.

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Nor are 79% of the population.

Your figures are incorrect.

It was 79% of the valid poll in the constitutional amendment, not the population. I wasn't aware that we'd lowered the minimum age for voting to 0 for a start...

And of that 79% (valid poll, not population), I know of at least one who doesn't share your own views. Me.

Like I said, immigration could go a long way towards solving the impending economic and demographic problems caused by an aging population in this country, but lets not let that get in the way of your ideology.

arcadegame2004

Therecklessone, I am not opposed to legal migration via the work-permit but only to do jobs that Irish people either are not skilled to do , or jobs that Irish people simply won't do. We should not encourage foreign immigration for its own sake, but rather to deal with labour-shortages. Allowing people to come here for the sake of it will ultimately fuel racial-tensions if we allow them to compete for jobs with Irish people, and guess who'll work for cheaper. We are entitled to protect our ethnic identity and culture.

We already have the youngest population in the EU (in the 2002 census 40% of the population were under 25), so this problem of "ageing-Ireland" is much exaggerated by the Left to back up their argument that Ireland should invite mass-migration for its own sake. We can provide our own solutions if Irish couples have more children, or else through compulsory health-insurance i.e. to pay for future health-care when the health-service has a lot more pensioners to cater for.

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004


We already have the youngest population in the EU (in the 2002 census 40% of the population were under 25), so this problem of "ageing-Ireland" is much exaggerated by the Left to back up their argument that Ireland should invite mass-migration for its own sake.

Then why did you introduce the subject to this thread in the first place?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
in the LONG run, as the population continues to age and hence as the ratio of taxpayers-to-pensioners continues to fall, the Health-Service will clearly face an increasing strain on its resources

Who's exaggerating now?

You want immigrants to jump through hoops to meet your needs, and then turn your back on them when it suits. Immigration to suit labour shortages? More like foreigners to collect your trash and serve your burgers.

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
We are entitled to protect our ethnic identity and culture

What has that got to do with the economics of immigration? What Irish culture do you choose to protect?

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
We can provide our own solutions if Irish couples have more children

What are you going to do? Hold guns to their heads and force them? Face it, affluent western societies do not have high birth rates, it gets in the way of careers and three holidays a year. Europe and the US have had to face this for years.