Another instance of €ircon stealing calls!

govinda

Bit of a long story, but this information may be helpful to other people considering upgrading their phone line.

I'm an Esat BT (Carrier Pre-Select) residential customer and have been from the time it became available - 32 counties charged at the same rate has reduced my phone bill to a third of what I'd pay €ircon.

As a result of having my line upgraded to "hi"-speed (ISDN) by eircom last Friday, my Carrier Pre-Select agreement with ESAT was cancelled without my knowledge or approval and my calls are once more going through the incumbent. I discovered this was the case by reading an FAQ on the UTV Internet website.

I called €ircon, and after being left on hold for some time, the first-line customer service rep. confirmed that we were now with them again. I asked why I hadn't been told about this and she couldn't answer. I spoke to her supervisor who tried to tell me it was my fault for ordering on the €ircon website instead of calling them - I told her sorry, but Internet service is not an excuse for second-rate service or misleading a customer. €ircon sent me two auto-response emails in response to this single order, one of them could have included this information. Ideally this information should be included on their website along with all the marketing blah about how ISDN is the latest thing, and not just the last resort higher speed option that is available to rural Irish customers. The supervisors response to the fact that this information is not available on their website, and that I had to read about this on the UTV Internet website was "No comment, I will feedback to management". I asked her how she would feel if she found out her calls had been hijacked by a rival carrier and again "No comment". What I cannot understand, and what she could not explain is that at no point did the telephone number that I use for voice calls change and I cannot see any reason therefore to cancel my CPS agreement. Thankfully I found this out before a massive €ircon bill arrived, but that seems to be just luck rather than consumer protection! EsatBT estimate it will be up to three weeks before my calls go through them again, somehow I suspect this delay is not of their making!

Having spoken to both EsatBT customer care and to a friend who works part-time for EsatBT making customer-satisfaction calls, this is not an isolated incident and plenty of customers have complained about it. I hope they have taken their complaints further than €ircon.

I consider this a(nother) blatant abuse of €ircons monopoly in the market, and have emailed Comreg and Dermot Ahern, Minister for Communications to see what they can do about this. Hope this information helps someone else as well!

seamus

Eircom sales are scum. I've said it many times before. They will take every opportunity they can to defraud the customer and sign them up for things they didn't ask for. It's eircom's fault for paying ridiculously high commission and having no disciplinary procedures in place when something like this does happen. Quite simply, eircom doesn't care. For every one customer that has been illegally brought back to eircom, and complains, there are five more who aren't complaining.

Let us know how you get on with Comreg. They should support you, as eircom aren't allowed take you back without your signature,

Sleipnir

"No comment"

You really have got to love their customer service.

seamus

Just double-checked their online T's & C's. There's nothing that says that if you get an ISDN line you are obliged to switch to eircom or to continue making calls with them. Probably an oversight on their part. Tough really.

eth0_

I remember about a year or two ago I rang them to enquire about getting ISDN. At no point did I actually say "I now wish to order this product", but they still went ahead, I only knew when I got a call to schedule the installation! And of course our CPS was changed from UTV to eircom at the same time.

Urban Weigl

It's called "slamming". Happened to me once as well. It seems like ComReg just don't care.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
It's called "slamming". Happened to me once as well.

Me too. It seems to be SOP for Eircom, as opposed to some sort of administrative mixup.

It seems like ComReg just don't care.

There's a shocker.

eth0_

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
It's called "slamming". Happened to me once as well. It seems like ComReg just don't care.

Comreg are absolutely sh1t. No one is scared of them. I had huge amounts of trouble with an o2 contract in the uk and when I refused to pay my bill until they corrected it they tried to charge me a disconnection fee and when I refused to pay that they tried to take me to court (all the while I was never able to speak to anyone in o2 with a brain, just idiots in their call centre who never logged my calls and never got managers to call me back).

I was at the end of my tether so I contacted OTELO who are a regulator, and within a week I had a letter telling me to forget all the charges, my contract had been cancelled (but no explanation or apology). OTELO, it would seem, have much more power and clout than comreg!

VeeEmmy

When it happened to me, I learned that it is standard practice. They "accidentally" steal people all the time. They know full well that it is happening. Maybe after the AIB "slip-ups" and the O2 and Vodafone overcharges are addressed, someone (ComReg? HA!) will go after eircom for their systematic billing errors, slamming, etc.

My experience...(click link)

If you haven't re-established your CPS to Esat, do it immediately, in writing.

If €ircon have charged you for internet calls which would have been "free" if you had still been with Esat, €ircon owe you money. You can get it back.

Call eircom billing and dispute the charges. Use the word "dispute." Request that it is noted that the amount owed (or paid) is in "IN DISPUTE. " Teminate direct debit immediately if it was a bundle of money. I made the mistake of not cancelling direct debit and they subsequently took my money!

Call back in a couple of days to be sure that it was noted. (They usually don't note it, I have found!) It takes at least two tries to get anything recorded correctly.

If you already paid the amount, inform them that you are due a refund.

Use the word "slammed" in registered correspondence with ComReg (cc eircom billing, and JG Ryan - see link above).

If you have the letter eircom sent you when you first changed to them, make a few copies. It is evidence that they know you requested the change. Enclose copies with correspondence to them or ComReg, just to let them know you have the paper trail.

Do not be defeated by any letters from them saying they have reviewed your bill and concluded that the calls are recorded accurately! (That's what they said in the first response I received from them - after 4 months of letters.)

I dogged €ircon until I got my money back (over €200). I sent registered letters to the billing dept, JG Ryan and ComReg every time I got an incorrect bill.

Communicate only in writing and only by registered post. Stay on it, don't let it drop. It's the only way to win.

I didn't have the energy to do the small claims bit, but next time they steal my money, I will. (They screwed up my recent move too, but that's another story - I won that one too.)

Do not drift along expecting them to correct the problem. Ring them weekly until it is solved. If it is not solved within a month, call up 1901 again and have them "ESCALATE" the complaint level and intimate that you regret that legal action appears to be necessary. (That escalated my dispute level and it was solved within 24 hours after that!).

It took me EIGHT months to get my bill straightened out. I was too polite. But I did get it straightened out, and did get the full credit due me.

They systematically do this stuff, and most people would rather not hassle with getting their money back, so it pays €ircon to continue to play these tricks. Don't let them get away with it!!

Good luck.

Ban

govinda

Thanks very much for your replies everyone, and especially Ban - I completely agree, it seems that too many people just pay up and eircom get away with it again and again.

I called Comreg this morning, as my email hasn't been replied to yet. Apparently, their consumer division is extremely busy at the moment, I wonder why?! I spoke to a representative who told me that my complaint hadn't been assigned yet, but he would take it over. He was quite helpful but hadn't read my complaint in full. I explained the problem to him and his opinion seemed to be that eircom were entitled to do this without notifying a customer. I queried this as Ofcom in the UK regard 'slamming' as a serious fraud offence and apparently my request will be passed on to the CPS compliance committee. I'll need to wait and see what happens there, but I am prepared to take legal action if needs be.

I also emailed the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs. The ODCA have not yet returned my email but I received the following email from the Dept. of ET&E yesterday:

Thank for your email concerning the issue you have with Eircom. Comreg is
the right authority for your complaint in this case. Although I cannot
comment on the technicality of your complaint, I can however comment on its
contractual aspect. If you get no satisfaction from Comreg, and you feel
that Eircom are in breach of contract, you may seek redress from the Small
Claims Court (a form can be downloaded from the Internet). You have not
specified in your email if you were an ordinary consumer or a business
person. Please note the Small Claims Court is not available to business
people.

I hope this is of assistance.

********* **********
Competition and Consumer Policy Section


My emails to Dermot Ahern have as yet gone unanswered.

Separately, by haranguing eircom on 1901 it appears my calls are going through EsatBT once more and Esat confirmed that with a traffic report for my line this morning. So there will be 2-3 days of eircom calls on the bill, but thats 2-3 days too many for me.
I arrived home yesterday to find my first piece of 'winback' material from Eircom - "why pay two bills?" - I rang them immediately to be removed from their list. I find it hilarious that their winback department would try getting me to sign back up when I have been calling their customer service line on a daily basis to complain. Roll on single billing!

Will keep you all updated on what Comreg come back to me with, anyway.

govinda

Well, Comreg just mailed me back.


Dear *******,


I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email below and our telecon earlier today.
ComReg has approached EsatBT in relation to the matter and requested their response. _There is currently a manual process in place where eircom notify, in this case EsatBT, of a line upgrade. If eircom do not receive any response from the other service provider they transfer the customer’s call traffic back to their network.
The CPS code of practice which I referred to in our telecon this morning is an industry document and I have confirmed with our compliance team that it is not publicly available and therefore I cannot issue you with a copy of this document. However, if you have any comments please respond to me directly and we will address any of your concerns.

Best Regards,
*************
Consumer Management


My reply, which was CC'd to Dermot Aherns two email addresses and the Dept. of Enterprise, Trade and Employment:


Dear Sir

Thank you for your response. I am disgusted by the fact that there is no legislation/obligation in place to have the customer informed by the incumbent, from whom they are _forced_ to order lines. It is not intuitive for a customer to check with their CPS carrier before having an eircom line installed if their telephone number is not going to change.

Eircom have apparently now rerouted my calls to EsatBT, but there are calls between the 18th and the 21st of June on the eircom network which I did _not_ give my permission for them to carry. I cannot understand a regulated system that allows the incumbent to steal back customers without their informing the customer of the fact. I cannot comprehend this happening in the UK, where Ofcom ensure that the CPS guidelines are freely available. I have been denied access to the CPS code of practice, which supposedly is here to encourage competition and protect the consumer. It seems to me that the Irish version is here to protect Eircoms position in the market.

It is beyond my belief that the blame for this situation could lie with EsatBT. The important fact here is that at _ no point_ did I give my consent for Eircom to cancel my CPS agreement - by writing, by phone or in their online terms and conditions, this was _never_ mentioned to me. Is there any protection afforded me from having my calls stolen back by eircom again in the future? It appears not.

At this stage, my disgust with the state of fixed line telecommunications and Internet access in this country is such that I am seriously considering cancelling my fixed line service entirely and moving to mobile only. Irish consumers pay the highest line rental in Europe and have absolutely no choice in that matter - or so Eircom would like us to believe. The apparent lack of consumer protection and rights in this area is forcing me to consider the alternatives.

govinda

"Response" from Comreg to my last mail:


Dear *********
_

Thank you for your email.
ComReg has recorded your comments and will respond to you in due course.

Best Regards,_

*************
Consumer Management

I've received a 'read receipt' from Dermot Aherns office, same as for my first email, but no response as yet.

Eircom will not let me dispute the 3 days of calls until my bill is issued next month. For once I will actually be waiting on my phone bill with bated breath!

Our man in Havana

Don't let them away with it!

VeeEmmy

Originally posted by govinda
"
.....
ComReg has recorded your comments and will respond to you in due course.

.....

Sounds like Consumer Management has been watching too much Big Brother!

Your letter is excellent.

There is precedent for them to credit you for costs for calls that you would not have incurred had you remained with Esat (ie, internet calls, diff in cost for regular calls, etc). If they didn't know they were wrong to slam people, they would not refund that money. Of that I am verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry sure!!

Stay on it! and good luck.

Ban

govinda

Thanks very much Bond and Ban!
I'm definitely keeping on it, I will contact Comreg on a daily basis until the bill is issued to see if it can be sorted before the bill arrives.
In the meantime, I've mailed Dermot Ahern again and received this response from his private secretary


Dear *******,
_
I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email below, the contents of which will be brought to the Minister’s attention.

_

Yours sincerely

***********
Private Secretary.


I've also emailed the "e-minister' Mary Hanafin, as her Information Society Policy includes the following to "co-ordinate policy to ensure the continued development of the Information Society in Ireland" - after all, its hardly conducive to development if €ircon customers are left so cold by dealing with them and the telecoms regulator that they contemplate cancelling their accounts.

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/index.asp?locID=175

This time last week (hi-speed was installed last Friday), I would have considered myself wise to the eircom agenda/tricks - goes to show that there's no limits to what they'll try.

govinda

Was very happy to receive a call from Mary Hanafins office today, her representative read my email in full and was very helpful and supportive of my complaint.

Although ComReg and Minister Ahern are the right people to deal with it, he told me, it does appear from my communication with them that they are not interested in solving the problem. A letter from Ministers Hanafins office will be sent to both Minister Ahern and Comreg today, to encourage them to resolve this complaint for me. Would be nice as neither Minister Ahern nor his office have replied and surprise, surprise, Comreg haven't contacted me either. The representative promised to maintain contact with me until the issue is resolved, so I'm v. happy that I contacted Minister Hanafin. Time to mail ComReg (again!) now.

LFCFan

it's unbelievable that in the 21st century we have to deal with politicians to get satisfaction with our phone company. Can u imagine someone in America sending a mail to their Governer because AT&T pissed them off.

govinda

It is unreal. As I see it, this situation is of the governments making - they sold off the infrastructure, funded by the taxpayer and put a weak regulator in to manage the "industry" - and so they should definitely be the ones to resolve it.

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by govinda
Time to mail ComReg (again!) now.

Fair play to you.
ComReg's attitude towards us consumers, who are paying dearly for this outfit, is dismal. Big words on their website about "The Consumer" and no interest to act for the protection of the consumer.
Bobby Hannon is the director for consumer affairs in comreg and it's no harm to email him: bobby.hannon@comreg.ie

When more people take a stance against Comreg's "performance", it will make a difference. Your publishing your story here is important. Comreg, the DCMNR and various journalists are visiting the forum. Our gov and specifically Hanafin said they would listen to people from now on...

P.

From [url]www.comwreck.com:[/url]

govinda

Dear *******,

_

I wish to acknowledge receipt of your emails of 25 June and 2 July.

_

ComReg has approached EsatBT on your behalf and we understand that they have been in contact with you directly. EsatBT will be issuing ComReg with a response on Tuesday 6 July at which point I will contact you further. _We have also approached eircom and await their response on the matter.


Best Regards,

*******************
Consumer Management


Needless to say that the 6th of July came and went without a word and so this afternoon I sent the email below to the ComReg rep handling my complaint and cc'd Bobby Hannon (thanks for that info eircomtribunal!). The rep, as per usual, has not replied directly.

My email:


Dear Sir

Do you have an update on my complaint at this stage?

My calls are once more going through EsatBT, but I organised that myself and that was not what my complaint concerned. My complaint was that the incumbent (Eircom) was allowed to cancel my CPS agreement without my knowledge or consent - written or oral. They are not required to inform the customer of this fact. All correspondence in this case is included below in any case.

I am quite concerned by the fact that I made this complaint to ComReg on the 21st June and am not receiving updates unless I chase them up myself. I have read on the Internet that ComReg are not interested in investigating incidents of slamming by the incumbent but I am not content to have my complaint ignored or brushed off which is the impression I am being given. There is clearly no consumer protection for CPS customers in this country.

As yet, the only company to contact me has been EsatBT - if the regulator does not have the power to handle a complaint against Eircom, the company which hijacked my calls, I would appreciate it if you would inform me of this fact so that I can take further action.

xxxxxxxxxxx


I received my first contact from €ircon not 10 minutes later.


Dear ********

I am e-mailing you to confirm that we are in receipt of the complaint that you have logged with Comreg and I will be in contact with you over the next 1 - 2 working days with a resolution to the case.

I apologise for the delay in replying to you and I can assure you that I will resolve this for you asap

With Thanks
**********
Escalation Manager
Eircom Customer Care

I'm getting pretty tired of this at this stage but equally more and more determined not to let it go.

spongebob

Demand full reimbusement of all calls billed by Eircom, you simply had no contract with Eircom to carry them and cannot be asked to pay for them in the circumstances.

You merely asked for a change of access channel from POTS to ISDN which is not the same thing at all.

Comreg have been inept in their enforcement of the CPS regulations , they would rather issue snotty directions on advertising standards than to do anything.

M

BigEejit

Fair play Govinda ... hang in there and its great you are letting us know how you are getting on ... we just know it will end in tears for €ircom when you see someone gutsy enough to bring them to task and not be put off by the ineptitude and disinterest of the regulator

govinda

Thanks guys. Still no word from ComReg themselves and no further updates from Eircom so I mailed Bobby Hannon directly this morning.


Dear Sir

My complaint (full details below) is as yet unresolved. I received my first contact from Eircom yesterday, having made this complaint to ComReg on the 21st June. They will require another 1-2 working days to answer me. This delay astounds me. I intend making a request under the Freedom of Information Act to determine exactly what action ComReg has been taking in my case, why it has dragged on for so long and why my emails are no longer being responded to by the ComReg representative 'handling' my complaint. If needs be, I will make a complaint to the Ombudsman who I understand can investigate ComReg under the terms of the 1980 Ombudsman Act.

The ComReg website is full of Consumer Protection 'propaganda' and yet, Eircom have been slamming customers who have requested a simple change of access channel from POTS to ISDN for the past 3 years (at least) and ComReg have not done a single thing to help the consumer. Were it not for my accidental discovery of this policy on the UTV Internet website, I would still be unaware that I had been slammed until a large Eircom bill arrived at the end of this month. Where is the consumer protection in that? Where is the consumer protection in the fact that the same ComReg representative told me by telephone that there is nothing to stop Eircom slamming me again in the future? Reading the ComReg press releases, it seems that the extent of consumer protection in the CPS sector of the market amounts to advertising regulation - surely a function of the ASAI?

Elsewhere in the world, slamming is regarded as illegal. What I want is a requirement for Eircom to advise customers on their website and by telephone at time of order placement that they will be cancelling your CPS agreement if you upgrade your line and to require the customers written consent to do that. The ComReg CPS 'Consumer Guide' is lacking a warning about this practice too. Is the regulator truly powerless to impose such a requirement on the incumbent?

Regards,

********

govinda

Reply from Bobby Hannan


Dear xxxxxxxx,

When ComReg replied to your previous e-mails, we had expected to have a response from both EsatBT and Eircom earlier this week.__ We have only this afternoon received a response from EsatBTand have yet to have a reply from Eircom despite a number of reminders.__
The inter-operator arrangements relating to CPS have been collectively agreed by the industry and our investigation on foot of your complaint will be to establish whether those arrangements were followed._ Until the operator responses arrive, ComReg cannot complete its investigation.__ __In the meantime, eircomhave told us that would contact you to resolve the issue.__ If this does not happen by Monday evening, can you let me know?
Irrespective of the outcome of that investigation, ComReg is currently examining those arrangements to establish whether they adequately serve the interests of consumers and promote competition in the market for telephony services.____ In advance of any change which ComReg may require to those arrangements or to any changes which the industry collectively agrees on a voluntary basis, ComReg is considering imposing a requirement which would result in full process transparency to ensure that customers do not have their CPS arrangements cancelled without prior notice.___ A requirement along the lines suggested in the final paragraph of your e-mail is one possibility which is being considered.__ However, you will be aware that ComReg is required to follow a statutory notice and consultation procedure before imposing any requirement of such a nature.

_
Regards,

Bobby Hannan
Manager - Consumer Management and International Affairs_



In doubtful anticipation of €ircon contacting me with any kind of resolution......


Dear Sir

As yet, I have had no further response from ComReg, EsatBT or Eircom with the exception of your email.

I would appreciate it if you could please address the points and questions raised in the second paragraph of my email in your capacity as the manager of consumer management. As you are no doubt aware, slamming is illegal in most other countries.

Regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxxx

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by govinda
Reply from Bobby Hannan


Dear xxxxxxxx,
In advance of any change which ComReg may require to those arrangements or to any changes which the industry collectively agrees on a voluntary basis, ComReg is considering imposing a requirement which would result in full process transparency to ensure that customers do not have their CPS arrangements cancelled without prior notice.___ A requirement along the lines suggested in the final paragraph of your e-mail is one possibility which is being considered.__ However, you will be aware that ComReg is required to follow a statutory notice and consultation procedure before imposing any requirement of such a nature.
Regards,
Bobby Hannan
Manager - Consumer Management and International Affairs_



Dear Sir
I would appreciate it if you could please address the points and questions raised in the second paragraph of my email in your capacity as the manager of consumer management.

Regards,
xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Govinda,

In fairness to Bobby Hannan – and we aren't friends – I think he has already gone out of his way to take up the points you were making. You've achieved whatever you could have achieved with ComReg at this point and time with this issue. Congratulation to you and fair play to Hannan.

P.

govinda

I think, with all due respect to you, that if everyone were to adopt that way of thinking then ComReg would never have to toughen up on slamming or any of the other problems in the Irish telecommunications market. My complaint hasn't been closed, and there's nothing stopping another customer from ending up in the same boat (without the benefit of accidentally finding out, as I did) tomorrow morning. I don't consider Mr Hannans response particularly helpful as regards the consumer protection aspect TBH.

I don't think it too much, for example, for their CPS guide to be updated to warn consumers - this wouldn't require a consultation etc. What happened to me, and what Eircom are doing is fact and people should know in advance. I still believe I have the choice over who carries my phone calls...

eircomtribunal

Originally posted by govinda
there's nothing stopping another customer from ending up in the same boat (without the benefit of accidentally finding out, as I did) tomorrow morning.

Fair point. Perhaps I have gone all soft in the brain...

I don't consider Mr Hannans response particularly helpful as regards the consumer protection aspect TBH.

You put me in the strange position of defending ComReg: You may have expected more and immediate reaction, but from my experience I consider the reaction you got to be very fast and positive.

What keeps amazing me is the fact that the other Telecom operators have not taken up this issue and pressed for a resolution. Why should it need the effort and (unpaid) time of a concerned citizen to get this sorted?

I don't think it too much, for example, for their CPS guide to be updated to warn consumers - this wouldn't require a consultation etc. What happened to me, and what Eircom are doing is fact and people should know in advance. I still believe I have the choice over who carries my phone calls...

I'd rather have ComReg sort out the issue than "informing" the public (who is really reading those ComReg guides?) about the mess.
I understand Hannan indicated "In advance of any change...ComReg is considering imposing a requirement.." in his answer to you that they are minded to do something immediately and not wait for consultation and due processes.

P.

sceptre

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
(who is really reading those ComReg guides?)

Just you Peter:)

I only ever read them when you find something funny in one and tell us about it.

govinda

Originally posted by eircomtribunal
You put me in the strange position of defending ComReg: You may have expected more and immediate reaction, but from my experience I consider the reaction you got to be very fast and positive.

Fair enough, sorry if my post seemed confrontational (it wasn't intended so!). I'm annoyed at how long this is dragging on though, considering I'm far from the first person its happened to and it seems to be a 'routine' matter for ComReg that a regulator should be able to fix.

Cabaal

Has there been any further communications between comreg, eircom and yourself?

govinda

ComReg aren't answering my emails, so I'm cc'ing them on everything I send €ircon so that they can't turn around and claim they didn't follow it up because I lost interest - which I'm beginning to think they're all waiting for!

Monday came and went, so I sent this mail to the €ircon escalation department yesterday, cc'ing ComReg


Sir

Can you please provide me with an indication of when you expect this investigation to be complete?

Having made this complaint to Eircom on the 19th June and to ComReg on the 21st, I am finding it difficult to believe that 17 working days have elapsed since I escalated this to the regulator and neither Eircom nor ComReg can resolve this yet.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx



I got the following reply about half an hour ago.


Dear xxxxxxx
_
I apologise about the delay in resolving this case for you and hope to have_a final resolutio to this case for you by the end of this week.
_
Thanks
xxxxxxxxx


Of course, I'm not going to wait for them to contact me on Friday, I'll make contact with them then....will let you know what happens. Thanks.