Sinn fein- the new nazi party?

dark_knight_ire

Just interested to find out what people here think. Most of the people here would be level headed.

Its apparent to me that sinn fein done very well in this election because they fought a hard campain put the work in, i mean its easy to listen and agree about everything the gov is doing wrong. But think about this sinn feins members come from the ranks of the IRA not all of them but they fund each other. They want their own police force and army. Remember 96 and the "raid" in adare. They shot Gardai killing one. Funny that it was called a raid when no attempt was make on the post office, they just rammed the garda car and jumped out opening fire. Sinn fein said it was nothing to do with republicans and then had to admit it later under huge evidence.

I would consider myself a republican but these guys are a different breed most of the people in the election are half criminals if not full criminals. They have no idea how to run a country. The green book the organiation ran on stated that the gov of ireland was an illegal gov, and they had the moral right to a "war" they want a socialist state. In which case this country would desent into the depths of hell if they got into power. I could never see a garda or a member of the defence forces saluting any member of sinn fein.

Remember this SF will not say sorry for any action taken like the murder of Gda McCabe they try to free these murders against the will of the irish people. They run protection rackets and extort money from hard working people. Of course they are to smart to get linked to this so they send their thugs in

I could list out so many thinks about them but i'd be here all day. I would be interested to hear comment for or against what i said. I don't mind a critic because unlike some if you disagree with me i would sent out a punishment mob.

tuxy

wait now how exactly are u comparing sinn fein to nazis
do u know what nazi means?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by tuxy
wait now how exactly are u comparing sinn fein to nazis
do u know what nazi means?

Nationalist Socialist.

And last time I looked those were Sinn Fein's two core idiological principles.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by tuxy
wait now how exactly are u comparing sinn fein to nazis
do u know what nazi means?

A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiter-Partei).

Aren't Sinn Féin a Socialist Nationalist party? Hm.

Agent Orange

Mary Lou was easily the most attractive looking of the EU candidates. No wonder she won.

The fact her party is made up of and affiliated with child-murdering psychopaths is a tad worrying however.

If you want to vote for a republican party then vote for a proper republican party - even Fianna Fail. At least they don't kill people.

Marq

I think it's somewhat assertive to say that most sinn féiners would have no idea how to run a country or sit in government. To an extent, this has been proven wrong by Power-sharing, and while we are all aware of its problems and limitations, some Sinn Fein ministries have done good solid political work in the North. I think that the local election results reflect two things - the growing dissatisfaction with a Fianna Fáil led government, and the growing acceptance of Sinn Fein as a legitimate political party. I am not asserting either way that they are a legitimate party, or whether or not they should sit in government, but I think it is quite apparent that a large number of people in this country now feel they are worthy of support, and everyone must accept that.

Sleepy

A protest vote is a protest vote, don't fool yerselves into believing that all those that voted Sinn Fein believe they'd do any better in government, they just wanted to let Fianna Fail know they were pissed at them. Either that, or god help us we're one thick country.

Mighty_Mouse

A protest vote is a protest vote,

Isn't it a little peculiar at this stage election after election to still not accept Sinn Fein as a legitimate force in Irish politics? ie Sinn Fein will never win more than 2 seats in Ireland...............Sinn Fein grows......Sinn Fein wont win european seats......Sinn Fein grows..........Sinn Fein is a protest vote ..........Sinn Fein grows.

It seams that those people who thought Shinners were losing the plot five years ago suggesting power sharing are only now starting to even accept Sinn Fein have more than two seats!

Isn't it a little peculiar at this stage election after election to still not accept Sinn Fein as a legitimate force in Irish politics? ie Sinn Fein will never win more than 2 seats in Ireland...............Sinn Fein grows......Sinn Fein wont win european seats......Sinn Fein grows..........Sinn Fein is a protest vote ..........Sinn Fein grows.

Maybe they should stop capitalising on the otehr parties mistakes, and actually take a stand and make a difference. My main problem with SF is that they never actually contribute. They go through the motions, but never take any responsibility. Until they do, they're not a political party worth considering.

super_furry

Sinn Fein will never be a legitimate political party as long as they have a private army of murders, thugs and terrorists at their beck and call.

The Brigadier

Cue Monument, Mighty Mouse irish1 and the other shinners asking you to prove that.

:rolleyes:

blobert

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Nationalist Socialist.

And last time I looked those were Sinn Fein's two core idiological principles.

I think people assosiate a little more than that with Nazis though.

dark_knight_ire

The link between sinn fein and the nazi party was said to reflect not the workers movement in Germany pre WW2 but princibles.

The sinn fein vote i accept was a protest vote against FF and the PD's there is a number of issues like health and policing i dont agree with but its easy if your an outside party like sinn fein to look at the flaws and agree that in fact there is flaws but, i dont think they could say how they will fix them. Think about it have sinn fein put forward a plan on health reform??? its easy to say the health service needs more money. In fact the health service gets enough money just need radical reform.

Let us not forget that it was the rainbow gov that set in motion the tiger economy, Sinn fein would have had nothing to do with it. Back then they could not moan as people were happy and would not listen. Perhabs the protest vote was a good think, might wake some people up in the Dail i just pray for all out sakes that its not repeated in a General election.

bus77

Originally posted by super_furry
Sinn Fein will never be a legitimate political party as long as they have a private army of murders, thugs and terrorists at their beck and call.

The days when those murder's and thugs are at anyones "beck and call" are long gone. They just look like the same bunch of fellas that ran riot around this country after we had to fight to get our ballot box down here.

Marq

Originally posted by klaz
Maybe they should stop capitalising on the otehr parties mistakes, and actually take a stand and make a difference.

First off, all parties capitalise on the mistakes of others, that's just how political campaigning works.

Secondly, your opinion of what 'taking a stand and making a difference' is could be vastly different to how another voter interprets it.
Simplistically, Sinn Fein take their stand - 32 County Republicanism and Socialism - and many feel that they make a difference, particularly in Local politics where other parties, particularly Fianna Fáil, have been seen to be lax and ineffective over the last few years.

I see this as capitalising on others' mistakes, and it works out well for those who feel that Sinn Fein will do a better job on local council than the proven imbeciles on the way out.


I vote labour

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
It seams that those people who thought Shinners were losing the plot five years ago suggesting power sharing are only now starting to even accept Sinn Fein have more than two seats!

Certainly Sinn Fein has been able to make significant inroads into mainstream politics, but one should not assume that the recent results are part of this process. The floating protest vote has certainly been part of Irish politics for around twenty years, as the old certainties of civil war politics began to break down. Labour most spectacularly benefited from this in the 1990 general election where they more than doubled their Dail seats, by 18 to a total of 33 (they subsequently dropped by 12 in 1997) . As a matter of fact, Patricia McKenna was herself originally the recipient of a protest vote that caused her to top the poll in the 1994 European Elections.

What best exemplifies protest votes is the transfers. You make your protest vote then transfer back to more orthodox parties, which is largely what happened.

Does this mean that Sinn Fein will be wiped out in the next elections? No, they’ve made gains and unless they screw up royally they’re likely to keep some of them. However, their percentage of the vote is highly unlikely to grow in the next general election and will most likely shrink as any protest vote looks elsewhere to express itself.

Will they grow to a point that they will become a governmental party? Perhaps, but through democratic means it’ll take a lot longer than many of their more jubilant grass roots members are presently prophesizing.

Originally posted by blobert
I think people assosiate a little more than that with Nazis though.

Of course they do, but most of those things are things we associate with the Nazis after they got into power - hardly a fair comparison.

Other than the same basic ideological tenets, both essentially pit one section of a community against another and both have paramilitary wings and both have been know to indulge in (or condone) vigilantism. So if you add up enough similarities, then it is very difficult to ignore after a while - if it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck, after all.

Mighty_Mouse

Cue Monument, Mighty Mouse irish1 and the other shinners asking you to prove that.

Theres a certain irony in Brigadair believing he knows my answer before I've made it!

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Of course they do, but most of those things are things we associate with the Nazis after they got into power - hardly a fair comparison.

Other than the same basic ideological tenets, both essentially pit one section of a community against another and both have paramilitary wings and both have been know to indulge in (or condone) . So if you add up enough similarities, then it is very difficult to ignore after a while - if it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck, after all.

You can draw comparisons between the Nazis pre war and every revolutionary group since time began.
You may as well put the the Nazi tag on them all so, most of them had socialist views, they all had paramilitary wings and a lot of their members indulged in vigilantism.

If we're drawing comparisons then the members of the DUP look like nazi generals out of uniform to me, and you know what they say "If the suit fits...

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
You can draw comparisons between the Nazis pre war and every revolutionary group since time began.
You may as well put the the Nazi tag on them all so, most of them had socialist views, they all had paramilitary wings and a lot of their members indulged in vigilantism.

Indeed you could, but not all of them also had nationalist views – most revolutionary groups tended to use class rather than nation as a rallying point for the masses and while not unique, the Nazi’s (and Fascism in general) were unusual in this regard.

If we're drawing comparisons then the members of the DUP look like nazi generals out of uniform to me, and you know what they say "If the suit fits...

Again, I would agree with this (although I don’t know if they are also socialist), but even if so it wouldn’t make the comparison with Sinn Fein any less valid.

In fairness though, there are limits in the comparison between Sinn Fein and the Nazis. While nationalistic and often antagonistic towards other ethnic groups, I don’t believe that Sinn Fein’s ideology is racialist in nature. Nonetheless, Sinn Fein still would come close enough to satisfy most of the principles of Fascism to be considered as such.

bus77

Yes but there's one more factor that links Northern Ireland and Pre war Germany. The fact that man made borders were imposed on each. After the Germans lost the first war large chunks of Germany were taken away and that was used by the Nazis as a rallying point.

Nationalism is not a link to Fascism.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by bus77


Nationalism is not a link to Fascism.

Of course it is, don't be silly.

Fascism has allways grown out of nationalism.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
Nationalism is not a link to Fascism.

Not on it’s own, but no one has suggested that this is the only quality that Sinn Fein and Fascism share. It’s already been pointed out that they share a good few.

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Fascism has allways grown out of nationalism.

In fairness, I don’t think he meant a link in that way.

Sleepy

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Isn't it a little peculiar at this stage election after election to still not accept Sinn Fein as a legitimate force in Irish politics? ie Sinn Fein will never win more than 2 seats in Ireland...............Sinn Fein grows......Sinn Fein wont win european seats......Sinn Fein grows..........Sinn Fein is a protest vote ..........Sinn Fein grows.

It seams that those people who thought Shinners were losing the plot five years ago suggesting power sharing are only now starting to even accept Sinn Fein have more than two seats!

Sinn Fein aren't a legitimate force in Irish politics. They are a front for murdering scumbags. They are too dumb to understand that socialism died with the fall of the Berlin wall. They use propoganda instead of policies. They mobilize the ignorant and poor, dngling pipe-dreams in front of them without even *hinting* at any means of achieving these dreams.

Until Sinn Fein give up socialism, learn to behave like human beings instead of animals locked in blood feuds (which, let's face it is all the north is about these days), come up with policies instead of daydreams and stop idolising idiots (and lets face it , anyone who kills themselves over their clothes is a bit thick really) they won't be a legitimate political party.

The Brigadier

Most sensible post in this forum in ages.

Well Done.:)

Marq

Sleepy, why should a party give up Socialism? Is there any reason other than that you patently don't agree with it? I don't agree with Sinn Féin's brand of socialism either, but if people vote for them, then that socialism is legitimate as far as those voters are concerned. I don't understand your post.

And tbh, I think that anything that mobilises the ignorant and poor is a good thing. Just because Sinn Féin are the cause of their interest in politics, doesn't mean that their enfranchisement is a bad thing.

earwicker

Of course, the only way to actually prove the original poster's contention if you agree with him would be to go through the Nazi party literature and compare it carefully with the SF discussion documents, point by point, policy by policy, and build your case.

Until that happens this thread will be a ****storm of the usual woolly abstractions and posturing.

Mighty_Mouse

Until Sinn Fein give up socialism, learn to behave like human beings

I hope someone doesnt have to give up socialism to be a human being;)

(and lets face it , anyone who kills themselves over their clothes is a bit thick really)

Yes, those who died on hunger strike are the thick, ignorant ones!:dunno:

Most sensible post in this forum in ages.

Well now nice to see you right there supporting as usual brigadiar general.

Cue Monument, Mighty Mouse irish1 and the other shinners

ermmmmmmm and the shinners are the obvious ones!;)

The Brigadier

If you look at my profile you will see my username is The Brigadier.

Silly name calling of the "Brigadier General" type just makes you look the smaller person.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
If you look at my profile you will see my username is The Brigadier.

Silly name calling of the "Brigadier General" type just makes you look the smaller person.

I think his main point was sometimes you give a little clap or a "here! here!" every now and again like the fellas in the houses of parlament.

The Brigadier

1. How does calling me Brigadier General help get this point across?

2. What does the houses of parliament have to do with the price of tea in China anyway?

3. Is Mighty Mouse some sort of racist with a gripe against English people?

These questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answererd.

earwicker

So why ask them?

ecksor

I think he wants rhetorical answers?

The Brigadier

I just don't feel the need for name calling.

Boston

Originally posted by dark_knight_ire
But think about this sinn feins members come from the ranks of the IRA not all of them but they fund each other.

In the south I'd there say its the other way around sinn fein yought was/is a very good recruitor of young IRA member, Quiet a few lads I knew got involved that way.

Mighty_Mouse

Is Mighty Mouse some sort of racist with a gripe against English people?

If you don't mind I would like to answer this one. Ans: NO Out of curiousity where did you deduce this from?

The general point I was trying to make here is that it is usually republicans who are accused of been "narrow-minded" "brain-washed" "extremists", "vile" "hate-filled", "racists" "predictable" "repetitive" etc etc But the irony in the whole thing is that most rational people would be able to say similar with regard to the anti-republicans in here.

The Brigadier

Who is anti-republican? I'm certainly not. I have no problem with Fianna Fail supporters (The Republican Party) but then they don't show contempt for the law and the people of Ireland.

Where did I deduce your dislike of English people? Well most recently when you decided to call me Brigadier General, bus77 pointed this out to be a reference to the Houses of Parliament. (I assume since you did not correct this, that it was correct)

I get a feeling of resentment from you towards England and English people - something which is certainly not unusual from supporters of Sinn Fein / IRA

Phil_321

Sinn Fein might be good at running a private army but God help us if they ever end up running the country(fat fooking chance;)).
What's all this nonsense about "building an Ireland of equals"? Do they mean everyone will have an equal chance of getting kneecapped or tortured?

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by The Brigadier
3. Is Mighty Mouse some sort of racist with a gripe against English people?

These questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answererd.

As far as I can tell, he has no problem with the modern English people, but the consecutive monarchs and governments that have ruled England from 800 years ago to today.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by The Brigadier
I get a feeling of resentment from you towards England and English people - something which is certainly not unusual from supporters of Sinn Fein / IRA

What are you? A member of the DUP? Even the UUP don't usually use the term "Sinn Féin / IRA", while the DUP do at every chance. You sound like an anti-Republican to me. Fianna Fáil have twisted the definition of Republicanism to suit their own ends, so I believe their title "The Republican Party" makes no sense.

Nobody uses terms like "PUP / UVF", "UDP / UDA", "RSF / RIRA" or "32CSM / CIRA" so why constantly use "Sinn Féin / IRA"? We've already established the fact that links are present, so why keep pushing on it?

Sinn Féin are a political party, and a popular political party at that. Face reality. They're pro-Agreement and are one of the foundations of the Peace Process. "Oh but they have links to the IRA!!" So what? Everyone has links to some form of criminal activity in one way or another. Doesn't necessarily mean that Sinn Féin go out when they're not in suits and ties and shoot people. What's that I hear? Ten-year-long ceasefire? Thought so.

Republicanism, Nationalism and Socialism have nothing to do with Nazism. Socialism is Left, while Nazism (which is Facist) is Right.

Nazism grew out of Supra-nationalism, the idea of the "super race" which is present in all forms of Facism. Hitler used it in his borrowed ideas of the Aryan race and Mussolini used it by saying that Italians are decendants of the great Roman Empire and so should rule the world.

Sinn Féin said nothing about we Irish being the greatest race in the world, unless I missed something.

Nazism and Facism support private enterprise, while Socialism and Communism frown upon it.

So I fail to see how Nationalism and Socialism can combine to form Nazism. Hitler was a Socialist for a while, but then became Facist. So, the term "National Socialism" was actually quite incorrect, and merely adds to the long list of paradoxes and contradictions riddles throughout his life.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Who is anti-republican? I'm certainly not. I have no problem with Fianna Fail supporters (The Republican Party) but then they don't show contempt for the law and the people of Ireland.

Where did I deduce your dislike of English people? Well most recently when you decided to call me Brigadier General, bus77 pointed this out to be a reference to the Houses of Parliament. (I assume since you did not correct this, that it was correct)

I get a feeling of resentment from you towards England and English people - something which is certainly not unusual from supporters of Sinn Fein / IRA

No its just that you are English and you apeared to be cheering for anti republican statements like the fellas in the houses of parlament (they cheer no matter whats said). Its damn annoying thats all.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Sleepy
Sinn Fein aren't a legitimate force in Irish politics. They are a front for murdering scumbags. They are too dumb to understand that socialism died with the fall of the Berlin wall. They use propoganda instead of policies. They mobilize the ignorant and poor, dngling pipe-dreams in front of them without even *hinting* at any means of achieving these dreams.

Until Sinn Fein give up socialism, learn to behave like human beings instead of animals locked in blood feuds (which, let's face it is all the north is about these days), come up with policies instead of daydreams and stop idolising idiots (and lets face it , anyone who kills themselves over their clothes is a bit thick really) they won't be a legitimate political party.

Actually, COMMUNISM died with the fall of the Berlin wall, and still not completely. North Korea is still Communist. Cuba is still Communist. And so on..

Until they learn to give up Socialism? You're the one who's sounding like a Nazi now. That's how Hitler was: "become a Socialist and I get the SS to shoot you." Better Socialist than Facist. The north is not "about blood feuds", although some people seem to use religion as an excuse to kill people.

So you have no pity towards the hunger strikers whatsoever? They gave their lives for living improvements for the people. It's easy to kill for a cause, but to die for one takes courage. They're a legitimate political party already. Sinn Féin have been a legitimate political party since they were established all those decades ago.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by bus77
No its just that you are English and you apeared to be cheering for anti republican statements like the fellas in the houses of parlament (they cheer no matter whats said). Its damn annoying thats all.

He's English? Ugh, that explains it. Don't suppose The Brigadier's name is actually John, is it? :rolleyes:

earwicker

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
He's English? Ugh, that explains it. Don't suppose The Brigadier's name is actually John, is it? :rolleyes:

Ah, David, could you not have phrased that better? I'm sure your "ugh" is not disgust at his purported "Englishness" is it?

arcadegame2004

Well I will never vote for them that's for sure. Not unless they make an extraordinary transition from a terrorist-linked party with far-left ideas including raising your-taxes and those of business, to an economically and socially liberal party espousing ideals of privatisation, competition, and low taxes.

Regarding the comparison of SF with the Nazis, even I think that's something of an exaggeration. But their armed-wing, the Provos, have the blood of many hundreds of innocent men, women and children on their hands, and not just in the North or the UK.

The Nazi Party actually grew out of a party (German Workers Party) that was originally both extremely nationalistic and socialistic. But when Hitler came to power, he ditched his left-wing policies in favour of capitalism, which helped his party get donations from wealthy businesspeople. In reaction to this, the SA (the Nazi Party's private army) became angry and its leaders, include Ernst Rohm, may have planned a coup against Hitler. Hitler had the SA leaders killed in what is known as "The Night of the Long Knives". The name "National Socialist" (from which the term Nazi is derived) was retained, but its meaning had now changed to extremely nationalistic.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by earwicker
Ah, David, could you not have phrased that better? I'm sure your "ugh" is not disgust at his purported "Englishness" is it?

It was more of an "oh, I should have guessed" summed up into three letters.

earwicker

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
hmmm

Mercury_Tilt: if you lean to the left, do you explode?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Fianna Fáil have twisted the definition of Republicanism to suit their own ends, so I believe their title "The Republican Party" makes no sense.

republicanism: the political orientation of those who hold that a republic is the best form of government.

In what way have Fianna Fáil twisted this definition? In what way does their slogan make no sense?

David-[RLD]-

There is and always has been a difference between common "republicanism" (i.e. the American Republican Party) and Irish Republicanism.

Sleepy

Originally posted by Marq
Sleepy, why should a party give up Socialism? Is there any reason other than that you patently don't agree with it? I don't agree with Sinn Féin's brand of socialism either, but if people vote for them, then that socialism is legitimate as far as those voters are concerned. I don't understand your post.

And tbh, I think that anything that mobilises the ignorant and poor is a good thing. Just because Sinn Féin are the cause of their interest in politics, doesn't mean that their enfranchisement is a bad thing.

I don't believe the ignorant deserve a vote tbh. If you can't grasp the basics of economics, you shouldn't be allowed vote. And before someone has a go at my "elitism", I don't see an understanding of economics/government as something reserved for the rich. It's something that should be taught in school. We have free second level education and an almost free 3rd level system so if you can't be arsed learning about how a country should be run, why should you have a say in running it? Socialism is Socialism is Socialism. It's centralised planning of a countries economy. This leads to economic depression, terrible social services and disaster in general.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I hope someone doesnt have to give up socialism to be a human being;)

ooh, wordplay, now there's something we don't see enough of from Shinners :rolleyes:

Yes, those who died on hunger strike are the thick, ignorant ones!:dunno:

Can you name something smart about dying over your preference for civilian clothing? I can't, it was blatant martyrdom for the sake of a cause that is impossible to achieve without legitimising genocide or dooming this country to another civil war. A united Ireland CANNOT be attained. The British WANT to dump Northern Ireland on us. It would devestate our economy as the Unionists would become the underdog and we'd see even more violence up north and then the International community would come in cut the country up again. And then the next time and the time after that until either all the unionists were killed or fled their homes or you people finally got sense and realised that the only solution to this problem is pretty much the status quo: Northern ireland as an independant, commonwealth state. And if you're prepared to die for the sake of getting rid of the commonwealth connections, just shoot yourself now and save the British Army the bullet because you're a moron.

ecksor

Haha Merc.

Is it not reasonable to invoke Godwin's law for the entire forum as a result of this thread being created?