Sinn fein- the new nazi party?

earwicker

Originally posted by Sleepy
I would agree with you entirely on this point. Unfortunately, large sections of the Unionist community are just as stubborn about giving up violence as the same sections of the Republican community. My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding Northern Ireland as an independant state.

Oh Jaysus.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sleepy
My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding Northern Ireland as an independant state.

I wager five qualloons on the human with the gold uniform...

earwicker

Originally posted by The Corinthian
So when we look at an organisation like SF, we should examine not if there is an exact fit or even what it claims to be, but where it shares most similarities - what it is de facto rather than de jure. Broadly speaking this would probably place SF as a ‘flavour’ or variation of Fascism, if you will, as it is closest to that ideological family than any other, regardless of what labels it chooses to market itself with.

Fair enough. As I said earlier, we'll agree to disagree. I've explained that the reason I read them as broadly "leftie" has to do with their stated practical marxist/ socialist principles. To do otherwise seems to me to be too abstract. It seems to me that an examination of actual policy points is the only useful way to discuss a political party.

But one question that's niggling me is what are the reasons for insisting they are fascist?

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Broadly speaking this would probably place SF as a ‘flavour’ or variation of Fascism, if you will, as it is closest to that ideological family than any other, regardless of what labels it chooses to market itself with.

I agree with you on everything else Corinthian, but you cant hold up one party and compare it to a stereotype by ticking off the boxes.

Fascism is a flavor of "Revolutionary" ie.wanting change by violent means. Communist/Facist/Republican all look similar but you cant compare a single party by holding it up and saying "That looks most like Fascism"

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
But one question that's niggling me is what are the reasons for insisting they are fascist?

Economically SF appear to be very much left of centre, however the concept of a government managed economy is hardly a socialist monopoly, as it was very much in evidence in Fascist economies.

Socially, again, SF might appear libertarian on many issues, but again one is assuming that other ideologies are not - including Fascism which often skirted from conservative to liberal and back again on social issues.

However the most telling evidence is that of the culture of militarism and of nationalism, born of romanticism, which is core to both Fascism and also very much so in Sinn Fein. To the best of my knowledge, no other ideology romanticizes this to the same level, to the extent that violence and militarism becomes a legitimate tool of political expression.

So given this, it is a fairly fair conclusion that there is significant overlap between the two, and not an unfair extrapolation that if one was to identify where in the political spectrum SF would rest, it would be alongside the more aggressive romantic nationalist ideologies, namely Fascism.

Originally posted by bus77
I agree with you on everything else Corinthian, but you cant hold up one party and compare it to a stereotype by ticking off the boxes.

I wasn’t comparing it to a stereotype but to just a broad ideological family. I’ve not said that it actually is Nazism, or Francoism or Classic Fascism, only that it originates from the same ‘school’. It would be like accusing the Labour party of being Socialists - they’re not, but their ideology is from the same ‘school’ as socialism.

Fascism is a flavor of "Revolutionary" ie.wanting change by violent means. Communist/Facist/Republican all look similar but you cant compare a single party by holding it up and saying "That looks most like Fascism"

But I’ve no simply said it looks like it, I’ve highlighted a number of similarities, including the most convincing one of militant nationalism. Even you would have to admit that if you can find enough similarities between the two then there is almost certainly a relationship.

Or, as I said, if it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

earwicker

Originally posted by The Corinthian
However the most telling evidence is that of the culture of militarism and of nationalism, born of romanticism, which is core to both Fascism and also very much so in Sinn Fein. To the best of my knowledge, no other ideology romanticizes this to the same level, to the extent that violence and militarism becomes a legitimate tool of political expression.

Again, fair enough. You concede that economically SF policy can be seen as leftie.

Your case does seem to boil down to two points: what you call militarism and nationalism. However, since the late 60's/ early 70's the romanticism of SF nationalism (national romanticism of course predates the formation of SF) has been gradually reinscribed in socialist terms returning to the analyses of the likes of James Connolly and Antonio Gramsci, where the unification of Ireland was seen as the necessary first step to establishing a nation state within which socialism would evolve from capitalism whose oppression would in turn foment worker revolution and result in a socialist government. Classic marxism.

monument

Originally posted by Sleepy
Accept reality. There was/is/never will be an ideal solution to the northern problem. A 32 county Ireland is an unattainable pipe dream as even if the Irish government were stupid enough to take it off the Brits' hands we couldn't afford to run it. What part of this don't Sinn Fein understand?

Talking about reality...

Originally posted by Sleepy
My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding

==============

Originally posted by Sleepy
Northern Ireland as an independant state.

Although, I would go for independent Northern Ireland if that was what the people of NI wanted ( - see I'm not a hardcore SF supporter after all )

Originally posted by Sleepy
By and large, the governments handling of the economy wasn't all that bad. .

Did you miss - "It's *NOT* the economy, stupid"... (x2)?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Again, fair enough. You concede that economically SF policy can be seen as leftie.

I never denied that. In fact ive argued that such ‘leftie’ economic policies were a commonality between most Fascist systems and SF.

Your case does seem to boil down to two points: what you call militarism and nationalism. However, since the late 60's/ early 70's the romanticism of SF nationalism (national romanticism of course predates the formation of SF) has been gradually reinscribed in socialist terms returning to the analyses of the likes of James Connolly and Antonio Gramsci, where the unification of Ireland was seen as the necessary first step to establishing a nation state within which socialism would evolve from capitalism whose oppression would in turn foment worker revolution and result in a socialist government. Classic marxism.

Actually no. Both Marx and Engels rejected the notion of the Nation as an invention of capitalism:

The bourgeoisie ... has agglomerated population, centralised means of production, and has concentrated property in a few hands. The necessary consequence of this was political centralisation. Independent, or but loosely connected provinces, with separate interests, laws, governments and systems of taxation, became lumped together into one nation, with one government, one code of laws, one national class interest, one frontier and one customs tariff

As such nationhood is simply a means to encourage international revolution not a goal in itself, which would appear to be at odds with SF ideology.

sroberts82

Now im new to this game and i dont know a whole pile so if im wrong in what i say i apologise. It seems to me that before sinn fein can become an accepted part of irish politics they must stop dividing themselves apart from the rest. A prime example of this was the waving of the tricolor at the election counts where they won seats. They do not own that flag, there was no need to wave it, we knew where we were. I think this is indicitive of the way sinn fein sees itself, as outsiders. Before everyone else sees them as part of the political process surely they must do so themselves first.

earwicker

Are you saying that Gramsci is not marxist?

Within marxism it's generally accepted that the nation is a necessary step in the formation of capitalism. I didn't say the reverse. Capitalism is accepted as a necessary step toward worker revolution.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Within marxism it's generally accepted that the nation is a necessary step in the formation of capitalism. I didn't say the reverse. Capitalism is accepted as a necessary step toward worker revolution.

I repeat:

As such nationhood is simply a means to encourage international revolution not a goal in itself, which would appear to be at odds with SF ideology.

That's what I said.

earwicker

And I've been trying to tell you that it's not at odds with the policies of SF. An analysis of the history of SF bears what I've been saying out.

It may, however, be at odds with your interpretation of their policy. And that is fair enough.

Like I said ages ago, we can agree to disagree (and I'll try to keep to this this time!).

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Like I said ages ago, we can agree to disagree (and I'll try to keep to this this time!).

Fair 'nuff.

Stabshauptmann

Im new enough to boards and missed the start of this thread, I have read the first and last pages and have some comments, I’m sorry if I repeat things or step on anybodies toes.
I voted no in that poll. I’m a republican in the strict sense of the word ie I believe that all people are equal and believe that a political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them is the best form of government.

Page 1

dark_knight_ire

But think about this sinn feins members come from the ranks of the IRA not all of them but they fund each other.

IRA active service units never exceeded a few hundred members and do not have the manpower in the ROI to account for these election results.

They want their own police force and army.

They IRA want a fair police force that they feel they can trust. In the ROI they accept the legitimacy of the Gardai, in NI they don’t yet have confidence in the police force. When one looks at history this stance is understandable but I don’t think things can progress further unless SF contributes fully to the policing board.

Remember 96 and the "raid" in adare.

Using specific case points is pointless as all sides in the NI conflict can “remember” examples of evil deeds perpetrated by their foes.

I would consider myself a republican but these guys are a different breed most of the people in the election are half criminals if not full criminals.

A republican by definition deems all citizens equally capable to vote and stand for election. Is there not a contradiction in your statement?

They have no idea how to run a country. The green book the organiation ran on stated that the gov of ireland was an illegal gov, and they had the moral right to a "war" they want a socialist state. In which case this country would desent into the depths of hell if they got into power. I could never see a garda or a member of the defence forces saluting any member of sinn fein.

SF seem to be doing a good job at local level and in NI. I’d say they have a very good idea of how to run a government. Regardless of who is in power the civil service runs the country.
Seeing as how you’re a republican you wont mind if I quote Dev: “It is an recognized principal that a revolutionary may, with honour at least, assume responsibility for interpreting the national will even against apparent national wishes, provided he sincerely and selflessly believes it to be in the national interest to do so.” I would imagine that people who risked their lives, served prison sentences and in some cases sacrificed their lives would be considered sincere and selfless.
The IRA accepted the legitimacy of the Dail, Gardai and Defence Forces a good while ago.
Can you read the future??


Tuxy

wait now how exactly are u comparing sinn fein to nazis
do u know what nazi means?

A very good point considering he never mentioned the Nazi’s once in a thread he started about nazi’s. Although Nazi stands for National socialist party, they had very few socialist policies. Fascism would generally be seen as right wing and socialism left so Marxists or Stalinists would be the ones to compare SF to; and even then I would argue against that.

Agent Orange

If you want to vote for a republican party then vote for a proper republican party - even Fianna Fail. At least they don't kill people.

In the strictest sense FF are not a “proper” republican party- they do not see all people as equal. Only a socialist party could in truth be seen as republican so Labour would be a republican party. Of course if you are using a broader definition of anyone who favours a government of the ppl then all parties in the Dail are proper republican parties. :confused

super_furry

Sinn Fein will never be a legitimate political party as long as they have a private army of murders, thugs and terrorists at their beck and call.

Only 3 of the 7 man army council are SF representatives so SF do not have the IRA at their beck and call. Your definition of the Ira as a band of murders, thugs and terrorists is another days argument. Sufficed to say, by your definition SF are a legitimate political party.

The Brigadier

Fascism has allways grown out of nationalism

Really? Where do monarchies come from?

Sleepy

Sinn Fein aren't a legitimate force in Irish politics.

Why not? I only have my pocket dictionary here and will take out a better one when I go home but legitimate here means “Being in accordance with established or accepted patterns and standards”. In this respect SF are legitimate. The three major parties in the Dáil have all had links to private armies. FF=IRA, FG=Blueshirts, Lb=OIRA (when itmerged with OSF and democratic left). It seems that the established pattern in Ireland is to have an army but get rid of it when you come to power. SF is taking the steps necessary to disband the IRA and I believe that this will have happened by the time SF enters power.

They are a front for murdering scumbags.

Who are these murdering scumbags you speak of? If anybody would like to start another thread about the legitimacy of the cause and way it was conducted I would be very interested to contribute to it, but that is not the terms of reference for this thread.

They are too dumb to understand that socialism died with the fall of the Berlin wall.

Maybe we should tell Germany that their vibrant economic success hasn’t actually happened or that the public health systems of Scandinavia are just an illusion. Are we both talking about socialism being a theory or system of social reform which contemplates a reconstruction of society, with a more just and equitable distribution of property and labor where the state provides the services needed by it citizens such as health, education, infrastructure and employment? I always considered Ireland to be a socialist state.

They use propoganda instead of policies.

The word is propaganda and that is a very interesting argument seeing as for a long time SF were banned from using the media at all. That is called censorship by the way.

They mobilize the ignorant and poor, dngling pipe-dreams in front of them without even *hinting* at any means of achieving these dreams.

You remind me of Eoin Harris. Sf don’t show these ppl the contempt you show them and that’s why they get their votes.

Until Sinn Fein give up socialism, learn to behave like human beings instead of animals locked in blood feuds (which, let's face it is all the north is about these days), come up with policies instead of daydreams and stop idolising idiots (and lets face it , anyone who kills themselves over their clothes is a bit thick really) they won't be a legitimate political party.

What ever you think of SF or the IRA that type of disgraceful mockery of the dead is appalling. If someone were to mock Det Sgt MaCabe would you stand for it?
If intelligence were the requisite of legitimacy then you sir are a bastard.

Page 4

To_be_confirmed

I think its saddening that certain people brand a political party (in this case Sinn Féin) as "Left" or "Right". Peoples' ideas, beliefs, feelings, ideals etc. are too complex to use a two-dimensional view on their opinions

A very intelligent point, I must admit though that for convenience I have at times summed myself up with such curt words.

bus77

I suspect the original founders of Sinn Fein were a mixture of Communist and almost Facist types who held out hope of one day returning to take power, but after so many years the party has (I hope) been repopulated with a "mixed bag" once again.

It might be said that FF is a mixture of left(Cowen, Martin) and right (Brennen, McCreevy) and that this is a long way from the parties founding fathers. I would say that given time SF and FF will find a lot of common ground and I could see them in coalition together some day.

Sleepy

Nor does it make it right to throw away economic success.

How do you measure success, I measure it in social issues- Health, Education, Crime rates, Infrastructure etc
I don’t believe that the FF/PD coalition has brought any success. If you are talking about economic success most serious long term commentators would give the rainbow coalition the credit.

Accept reality. There was/is/never will be an ideal solution to the northern problem. A 32 county Ireland is an unattainable pipe dream as even if the Irish government were stupid enough to take it off the Brits' hands we couldn't afford to run it. What part of this don't Sinn Fein understand?

My own solution to this would be to lock all these people into a battle arena and let them kill each other off with any survivors being gassed. Then, when all those that want/create the violence are dead, the remainder can set about rebuilding Northern Ireland as an independant state.

So you would solve violence with violence, extreme violence at that, reminiscent of Nazi tactics.

Stabshauptmann

there was some problem putting this all in one reply--



sroberts82

A prime example of this was the waving of the tricolor at the election counts where they won seats. They do not own that flag, there was no need to wave it, we knew where we were. I think this is indicitive of the way sinn fein sees itself, as outsiders. Before everyone else sees them as part of the political process surely they must do so themselves first.

Why do they do that? Maybe its just that the same crowd in the centers are the same crowd from the north and up there its us and them mentality. Personally I believe it is disrespectful to the flag and to the state.

Ajnag

The extremism and narrow minded logic of the anti-shinner in this thread is beyond belife.One point Ill hop on is the arrogance to ignore the fact that the hunger strikers were a part of the civil rights issue.As well as much other ignorance to the recent history involved.

Sinn Fein hasnt got my vote yet, but I will say this, anyone who hop's on the mindless bandwagon of the anti shinners will have lost my confidence.

There are many things that the shinners have yet to awnser for, However the sheer drivel and attitude of mc dowell and some of the posters here will only serve to allow shin fein to get off the hook given the lunacy and extremism that their opposition is presenting them with.

The Brigadier

Seeing as I am going home to the UK I feel I can now come out and say how I feel without fear of getting banned....

Sinn Fein are the political front for the IRA a terrorist organisation. Gerry Adams does have blood on his hands.

Well done Ireland, I really hope you enjoy them.

I hope they get into power with a majority government, then you will feel the ramifications.

Goodbye!

sceptre

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Sinn Fein are the political front for the IRA a terrorist organisation. Gerry Adams does have blood on his hands.

That's hardly the kind of thing that'll get anyone banned. Plenty of people have said that over the years. Given that Gerry Adams apparently joined the IRA around 1972 I'd be half-surprised if he didn't either put a bullet in someone or hold a mate's pint while someone got a bullet in them at some point. And no, I don't have a copy of his membership card.

I'll ignore the rest of your post if you don't mind as obviously the local idiots in Dublin were particularly vocal tonight, if they even stopped there (those of us with two brain cells to rub together have never quite been able to understand it). And I'll wish you well on your trip home James.

The Brigadier

Thanks for your well wishes Sceptre....

Shame I am leaving Ireland with such a sour taste in my mouth...

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Ajnag
The extremism and narrow minded logic of the anti-shinner in this thread is beyond belife.One point Ill hop on is the arrogance to ignore the fact that the hunger strikers were a part of the civil rights issue.As well as much other ignorance to the recent history involved.

Sinn Fein hasnt got my vote yet, but I will say this, anyone who hop's on the mindless bandwagon of the anti shinners will have lost my confidence.

There are many things that the shinners have yet to awnser for, However the sheer drivel and attitude of mc dowell and some of the posters here will only serve to allow shin fein to get off the hook given the lunacy and extremism that their opposition is presenting them with.

Outside of ranting in much the same way as you are accusing others of, what exactly are you trying to say?

Originally posted by sceptre
I'll ignore the rest of your post if you don't mind as obviously the local idiots in Dublin were particularly vocal tonight, if they even stopped there (those of us with two brain cells to rub together have never quite been able to understand it). And I'll wish you well on your trip home James.

Awe, diddums... are the nasty city slickers making fun of your webbed toes again..?

Mighty_Mouse

Posted by Brigadiar:
I really hope Ireland endures the four horseman of the apocalypse and that you all die alone and unhappy

I'm sorry you had a bad experience over here but look for the silver lining! Now you have a more complete understanding of why the Irish really dislike the english. Signs like "no dogs, no Irish", and "stupid mick" "paddy" were all endured in recent years by the Irish in England. And thats not even getting into the politics!

Goodbye!

Surely they have internet in England but if you continue to post we'll know what you really think and that could be a problem!:eek:

The Brigadier

Well Mighty Mouse, I'll certainly view Irish people in a different light for the rest of my life. Not a favourable one...

Again you seem to make excuses for everything...The reason I have been subjected to racial hatred in Ireland is because of the fact that some Irish people encountered that in England...

Seems very similar to your mantra on IRA/Sinn Fein punishment beatings in the north - it's OK because someone else did it as well...

I'm surprised you haven't wished me off with a nice burst of "Brits out or up the 'ra"..... Thank you for showing restaint.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Well Mighty Mouse, I'll certainly view Irish people in a different light for the rest of my life. Not a favourable one...

I take it you had an unpleasant experience here recently. I sympathise, but it just doesn't make any sense to form an opinion of Irish people as a whole on the basis of it.

The Brigadier

Well I have had 16 years of unpleasant experiences....

but in all fairness my country invaded Ireland so I probably deserved it all.....

Villain

Well I haven't been on much lately because I started a new role where I'm away from the PC alot.

However I see things haven't changed, SF are still getting bashed on a daily basis.

Well as I said in the title of the last thread I started

You keep bashing and we'l keep growing

Mr Melody I can't say I'm sorry you have said goodbye, you have been totally ignorant to SF.

You can stand still with your beliefs and hold them to the day you die, but SF is moving forward, helping to bring peace to this Island and offering the people of Ireland and alternative to so called Republican party that is FF who have lied to us over and over and have failed to bridge the gap between the poor and rich in our soceity.

In regards to some Irish people not liking the English, you do realise a large number of people from other contrys don't like the English too. The Scottish and French spring to mind.

I wonder if your country was oppressed for 800 years what feelings you would have towards the people of that country, I'm not saying it's right but you have to see why some people feel the way they do.

sceptre

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Awe, diddums... are the nasty city slickers making fun of your webbed toes again..?

Eh? What now? Who bit you?

The Brigadier

Seeing as I am going I have decided to read some of your drivel...

Sinn Fein still have a terrorist wing.....As long as you are happy with that I will hold you and other Sinn Fein supporters in the utmost of contempt..When they want to grow up and realise that terrorism is a course worthy of nothing but contempt, then maybe I will treat them with a little respect. Until then you and your terrorist supporting chums will not be viewed with respect by me.

At least back home I will have less of this doodoo to worry about....

Oh, and why do you insist on calling me by my surname and not by my handle? I don't see you referring to other people by their surnames? Why am I signalled out for this special treatment?

Villain

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Oh, and why do you insist on calling me by my surname and not by my handle? I don't see you referring to other people by their surnames? Why am I signalled out for this special treatment?

I'm just simply referring to your old nick i.e James Melody

Oh and nice of you to reply even if only to some of my post.

bonkey

I'd be an awful lot happier if a lot of the snideness and baiting was given a rest, lest the responsible parties start finding themselves banned.

If you can't express your opinion without denigrating those who happen to disagree with you, then don't bother posting here.

jc

The Brigadier

Originally posted by irish1
I'm just simply referring to your old nick i.e James Melody

Oh and nice of you to reply even if only to some of my post.

And why not use my current nick?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by irish1
You keep bashing and we'l keep growing

Don’t you think you’re being a bit presumptive? While SF has been improving it’s representation over the last decade, its recent successes were more to do with a protest vote than a sudden, magical surge in support. It’s a protest vote that all the political parties have benefited from in the past and you’ll find it’ll go elsewhere in the next election.

After all, if the electorate really supported SF as would be claimed with the local elections, why did that same electorate not support SF policy on the referendum too?

You can stand still with your beliefs and hold them to the day you die, but SF is moving forward, helping to bring peace to this Island and offering the people of Ireland and alternative to so called Republican party that is FF who have lied to us over and over and have failed to bridge the gap between the poor and rich in our soceity.

Thank you for the party political broadcast.

In regards to some Irish people not liking the English, you do realise a large number of people from other contrys don't like the English too. The Scottish and French spring to mind.

Not to the same level as the Irish. I was somewhat disgusted by the attitude of many yesterday who were supporting Portugal, not because they wanted Portugal to win, but because they wanted England to lose.

As Brendan Behan once said “Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis.”

I wonder if your country was oppressed for 800 years what feelings you would have towards the people of that country, I'm not saying it's right but you have to see why some people feel the way they do.

The educational system, in particular in primary school, here is ridiculous with its level of Anglophobic propaganda. I’m not surprised there’s a predisposition to hate the English with the often dubious historical facts that are presented to children from an early age.

TBH, if we hadn’t had a Famine, we probably would have had to invent one.

Originally posted by sceptre
Eh? What now? Who bit you?

Well... all right, I was being a bit mischievous. It’s Friday after all.

Villain

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Don’t you think you’re being a bit presumptive? While SF has been improving it’s representation over the last decade, its recent successes were more to do with a protest vote than a sudden, magical surge in support. It’s a protest vote that all the political parties have benefited from in the past and you’ll find it’ll go elsewhere in the next election.

After all, if the electorate really supported SF as would be claimed with the local elections, why did that same electorate not support SF policy on the referendum too?

I disagree if it was a protest vote the votes would have went to other partys also, SF got it's supporters out, believe me SF will keep growing.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Thank you for the party political broadcast.

Anytime

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Not to the same level as the Irish. I was somewhat disgusted by the attitude of many yesterday who were supporting Portugal, not because they wanted Portugal to win, but because they wanted England to lose.

Well it varies, perhaps the Irish feel they have more reason to hate them

Originally posted by The Corinthian

The educational system, in particular in primary school, here is ridiculous with its level of Anglophobic propaganda. I’m not surprised there’s a predisposition to hate the English with the often dubious historical facts that are presented to children from an early age.

So you think the hatred comes more from the way history is thought rather than the actual events? also I dont know what facts are thought that are DUBIOUS!

Originally posted by The Corinthian

TBH, if we hadn’t had a Famine, we probably would have had to invent one.

Thats something I've often heard been quoted and I honestly think its a very stupid analogy.

swiss

Originally posted by irish1:

I disagree if it was a protest vote the votes would have went to other partys also, SF got it's supporters out, believe me SF will keep growing.

Votes did go to other parties. FG managed to beat FF nationally for the first time ever. Labour too increased their vote (albeit slightly). I am willing to accept that Sinn Féins gains weren't all to do with people registering a protest vote, but by the same extension of logic neither were the gains of the other parties involved.

Sinn Féin are of course delighted with this, and indeed they have every right to be, but just because they have tripled thier vote from one election to another doesn't necessarily mean that they will do the same in the next. However, no matter how well they poll, that will not change my opinion of the party or of thier subversive, criminal and terrorist links.

Originally posted by The Corinthian:

I was somewhat disgusted by the attitude of many yesterday who were supporting Portugal, not because they wanted Portugal to win, but because they wanted England to lose.

Holding a grudge against England appears sometimes to be a national pastime. I can understand that people have a historical basis for the animosity they hold towards England, but to hold a nation and it's people responsible for the sins of their ancestors is just wrong. With regards to the match, I did not care who won as I do not follow soccer. However, from what I heard (from who I would consider a reasonably impartial source) England were denied a perfectly good goal. It is a source of some confusion to me when people profess to have a love for a game, and then rejoice when an "unfair" result materialises due to a mistake made by a referee of the game.

For what it is worth, The Brigadier, I am sorry that you have been subjected to abuse due to your nationality, and I wish you well in your return to England.

monument

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Well Mighty Mouse, I'll certainly view Irish people in a different light for the rest of my life. Not a favourable one...

Again, you seem to make excuses for everything...The reason I have been subjected to racial hatred in Ireland is because of the fact that some Irish people encountered that in England...

And round, round the lovely circle of hatred goes – if you see it as wrong for people to judge you because you are English, or blame you for something your country did – why not break the circle, and view people one by one?

Anyway, I hope your reason for leaving Ireland is not racism, but either way I hope you have a good trip home.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

The Real B-man

Originally posted by Agent Orange

If you want to vote for a republican party then vote for a proper republican party - even Fianna Fail. At least they don't kill people.

They do waiting lists for hospitals!!!

Sparks

Originally posted by daveirl
I like to see Kerry lose in GAA

*breaks metaphorical chair over dave's head*

Cork

Originally posted by The Real B-man
They do waiting lists for hospitals!!!

Hoe many people did the IRA put in hospital?

How many punishment beatings are they involved with?

What is the differance between Joe Higgins's - Socialist party and SF?

People don't really vote for SF on their transport, eduacational & taxation policies.

SF was the party that could never condemn the IRA. Why?

It complains about a lot. But never the IRA?

When Tony Blair & Bertie get the Peace Process back on track. Northern Ireland will no longer be an issue in the Republic. SF accepts the partition of Ireland. It maintains offices in westminister. It participated in an 6 county assembly.

But no political party should have links to organisations involved in criminality.

What is the justification of racketeering?

Getting money for who or what exactly?

cdebru

the orignal poster on this thread
is very simplistic
first of all sinn fein would class themselves as a republican socialist party not
a nationalist party
and to suggest that
if you are a socialist you can not be nationalist or that makes you a nazi is just plain stupid
what makes someone a nazi
is their beliefs not their name

Time Magazine

As I wrote on another thread, I see Sinn Féin as the Irish Fascist party.

---

I see Sinn Féin as a form of Fascist, essentially. Think about it, look at the similarities
-private army,
-ardent nationalism,
-undertones of the great right "our people" have of an area of land
-connections to international paramilitaries
-in the grass-roots, vigilantéism and organised prostitution
-scare-mongering tactics
-calls for release of "political" murderers
-Promise of being radical, the "only radical choice"

Gerry Adams is smart. He knows that if he puts on a anti-racism face and denies any paramilitary connections and calls for a Europe of equals he's going to get the working-class vote. Let's be realistic, there is no way socialism would ever come into Ireland look at the alliance with EU, WTO, the US, the power IBEC hold and complete captialist mind-frame in the country at the moment. We're not a socialist state and we never will be, not least because socialism has not and will not work. I think Sinn Féin have put on a face of Left-wing politics purely for politics. They're far too close to Extreme Right for me to believe that they are actually Left.

---

And Hitler's "National Socialists" were not socialists, as cdebru rightly pointed out. And if you want any more proof that Gerry Adams is the Irish equivalent of Adolf Hitler - look at the beard, man. Scary.

monument

Originally posted by Cork
Hoe many people did the IRA put in hospital?
How many punishment beatings are they involved with?

Too many.

Originally posted by Cork
People don't really vote for SF on their transport, eduacational & taxation policies.

Some people do. Have you asked every one?

As do people vote for the Green’s wacky green ideas :rolleyes:

(on a side note, I hope no one voted for FF on their transport or education policies)

Originally posted by Cork
What is the differance between Joe Higgins's - Socialist party and SF?

The most notable is that SF have links to a paramilitary.

Originally posted by Cork
SF was the party that could never condemn the IRA. Why?

It complains about a lot. But never the IRA?

Something to with have links to a paramilitary, apparently.

Originally posted by Cork
When Tony Blair & Bertie get the Peace Process back on track. Northern Ireland will no longer be an issue in the Republic.

Wow, it’s we care about the north season – how refreshing.

Originally posted by Cork
SF accepts the partition of Ireland. It maintains offices in westminister. It participated in an 6 county assembly.

What does any of that have to do with anything? If I say “I accept it may rain tomorrow”, I’m not suggesting how I feel about the rain. Are you somehow trying to tell me SF have SUDDENLY change their goal of a all Ireland government – was this on the news tonight or something????

Originally posted by Cork
But no political party should have links to organisations involved in criminality.

So then, Mr Ahern should end his friendship with his “good friend” Mr Bush and the current US presidential organisation? Maybe not – there’s Irish jobs at stake. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Cork
What is the justification of racketeering?

If such was true, I’m sure they want money – for a justification you’ll have to ask the IRA.

Originally posted by Cork
Getting money for who or what exactly?

The mystery continues. :rolleyes:

The Corinthian

Originally posted by irish1
I disagree if it was a protest vote the votes would have went to other partys also, SF got it's supporters out, believe me SF will keep growing.

Outside of the fact that that statement makes little sense in the English language, I never said that SF’s support would not continue growing, but I did dispute that the local elections were any real evidence of this.

Anytime

I think you missed the point, which was that you were regurgitating meaningless propaganda. You didn’t actually state any discernable fact.

Well it varies, perhaps the Irish feel they have more reason to hate them

Do we really? All tied in to the 800 years you personally experienced, no doubt?

So you think the hatred comes more from the way history is thought rather than the actual events? also I dont know what facts are thought that are DUBIOUS!

You’ve not really studied history and how it can be manipulated, have you? Or any of the studies of periods such as the Famine and Act of Union by modern historians either?

Thats something I've often heard been quoted and I honestly think its a very stupid analogy.

Other than because you disagree with it, why so? Put it in words.

joe.

live in dundalk town for a little while. or somewhere like forkhill. i think forkhill would be better. then you'l see what sinn féin stand up for. inequality in the island of ireland.

Villain

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Outside of the fact that that statement makes little sense in the English language, I never said that SF’s support would not continue growing, but I did dispute that the local elections were any real evidence of this.

What I meant was that if it was a protest vote people would have voted anything other than FF, which in my mind would have seen a large increase for all partys, the fact that Sinn Fein got the major increase shows that people weren't simply voting against the government they were voting for SF. Sorry if my english doesn't match your intelligence.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

I think you missed the point, which was that you were regurgitating meaningless propaganda. You didn’t actually state any discernable fact.

I was replying to another poster it wasn't meant as a general comment to everyone.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Do we really? All tied in to the 800 years you personally experienced, no doubt?

Just because people may not have suffered themselves doesn't mean they no right to be angry at what happened to family in past times, as I have said I'm not saying this is right I'm simply stating why I believe some people have such hatred.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

You’ve not really studied history and how it can be manipulated, have you? Or any of the studies of periods such as the Famine and Act of Union by modern historians either??

So the Plantation of Ulster never occurred?? Irish people were never denied their right to speak Irish or practice religion by a ruling British Empire???
Their maybe some fine detail that can be manipulated but the bare facts remain the same!

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Other than because you disagree with it, why so? Put it in words

I could never see Ireland wanting to invent a time where its population fell from 8 million to 5 million mainly due to death or emigration as the result of a famine???

Originally posted by irish1
What I meant was that if it was a protest vote people would have voted anything other than FF, which in my mind would have seen a large increase for all partys, the fact that Sinn Fein got the major increase shows that people weren't simply voting against the government they were voting for SF. Sorry if my english doesn't match your intelligence.

Not necessarally.
1989 saw the protest vote go to one party,the progressive democrats, believe it or not.
1992 saw it largely go to the labour party, only to have it get a kick in the face when they went into coalition with Fianna Fáil.
And more recently in the UK, the protest vote went to UKIP and not the Tories.
That last example just shows the strange nature of an electorate as that party would like greater ties with the U.S and indeed one of it's newly elected M.E.P's is an American which sort of goes against the anti GWB trend.

Regarding protest votes not going to all non FF parties,it's not really true to say that either
Fine Gael and Labour did very well in the last election, gaining M.E.P's and holding the majority for the first time in years on many councils.
FG are now the largest party for instance in my own county and wexford and Labour are on two of Dublins councils, displacing FF.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by irish1
What I meant was that if it was a protest vote people would have voted anything other than FF, which in my mind would have seen a large increase for all partys, the fact that Sinn Fein got the major increase shows that people weren't simply voting against the government they were voting for SF.

Historically that’s not how it works. Protest votes have tended to go in favour of one or two parties, creating a temporary landslide that almost completely dissolves in subsequent elections. The best example of this would be Labour’s massive increase in the 1992 general election where they more than doubled their share of the vote from 9.5% to 19.3%. By the 1997 election this landslide was decimated bringing them back down to 10.4% of the vote. Patricia McKenna is another example of this when she originally benefited from a protest vote when first elected, topping the poll with 14.5% of the vote in 1994.

If you go through past election results you’ll find numerous examples if this type of voting behaviour.

Additionally, as I’ve already observed (and you ignored), were this a focused increase in support for SF and her policies, then why did the same electorate that voted SF apparently disregard SF’s call for a no vote in the referendum?

Sorry if my english doesn't match your intelligence.

I was simply pointing out that what you wrote didn’t make any sense in the language, regardless of anyone’s intellect.

I was replying to another poster it wasn't meant as a general comment to everyone.

Unless there was a hidden message meant only for that poster, it wouldn’t stop others from commenting on its complete lack of tangible content.

Just because people may not have suffered themselves doesn't mean they no right to be angry at what happened to family in past times, as I have said I'm not saying this is right I'm simply stating why I believe some people have such hatred.

The problem as I can see it is not that you are presenting the “800 years of oppression” as a reason for such antipathy, but that you seem to believe it to be a justification for it - you’re not saying it’s right, but you’re also conveniently not saying it’s wrong, either.

So the Plantation of Ulster never occurred?? Irish people were never denied their right to speak Irish or practice religion by a ruling British Empire???

I never said any of those events did not occur. How exactly they occurred is another matter.

Their maybe some fine detail that can be manipulated but the bare facts remain the same!

So it’s all right to manipulate some of the fine detail? I would have though that the fine detail also constituted as fact.

IMHO, the greatest manipulation of Irish history is not of facts or details but in its melodramatic and divisive delivery. The Irish educational system has had a long tradition of teaching Irish history as ‘800 years of oppression, and nothing else’. You have to read some of the primary school history books that I would have used in the 70’s to realise what level of Anglophobia we were already programming into children at an early age.

I could never see Ireland wanting to invent a time where its population fell from 8 million to 5 million mainly due to death or emigration as the result of a famine???

Today, the famine has become a core national justification for Anglophobia. Surely a few fine details shouldn’t get in the way of that?

Yet the most recent studies have indicated that a larger proportion of those emigrated than previously thought, and that the Famine, which incidentally was pan-European and not limited to Ireland, caused similar devastation in other nations too.

Cork

Originally posted by irish1

I could never see Ireland wanting to invent a time where its population fell from 8 million to 5 million mainly due to death or emigration as the result of a famine???

But what about the deatths and distruction caused by the IRA?

What about the links that organisation has with SF?

SF has never spelt out the nature or extent of the links. If I am wrong on this - could you provide me with a link.

SF accepts partition. SF sit in a NI assembly and know that they will be no change in the statusof NI without the consent of those who live there.

SFspeak about the unity of this country is nonsense. SF/IRA have not been known for bringing the traditions of this island together. Gerry reminding us that the IRA has not gone away is an example of this.

Maybe SF needs a fresh leadership.

monument

Originally posted by Cork
But what about the deatths and distruction caused by the IRA?

What about it?

Originally posted by Cork
What about the links that organisation has with SF?

Would you like if the IRA were all guns and bombs with no talk? - maybe that's what you want?

Originally posted by Cork
SF accepts partition.

Could you go back and read my last reply?

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Cork
But what about the deatths and distruction caused by the IRA?

Last time I checked, the IRA hadn't killed over a million people. The Famine did.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Last time I checked, the IRA hadn't killed over a million people.

So when do you reckon their body count starts being unacceptable then?

10,000?

100,000?

500,000?

Maybe half a million is an acceptable cut-off point for you...