Anti Bush March

woody

Pal I actually do and was in the Workers Party for years before I saw the lights so two fingers

sceptre

Originally posted by woody
The Likes of Lenin, Trotski etc... the people in the former soviet union...

Good lord.

If you'd mentioned a kibbutz I might have even backed you up.

woody

Amnesty another group of self righteous idiots.

BUMP!

Posted by DAHAMSTA

You neglected to address the subject of the "war" being "over". How convenient.

I tell you one thing - if my brother/sister/mother/father/son/daughter was killed in a (illegal) war like this then for me the war wouldn't be over JUST BECAUSE MR BUSH SAYS IT IS. Regardless of what happens in the future, there is no way to get back a lost life and therefore no way to undo the hatred that America has generated against the not just themselves, but the West as a whole.

Hope it was worth it for a few barrels of oil...

super_furry

Originally posted by woody
Pal I actually do and was in the Workers Party for years before I saw the lights so two fingers

Those lights didn't happen to be floating in the sky, promising to take you to a far off planet, did they?

Evil Phil

Originally posted by woody
Amnesty another group of self righteous idiots.

Can you provide an example? From my experience Amnesty are not part of the 'Soap Dodging Lobby' as I like to call them but are generally made up of people like myself. Employed (self in my case), educated and generally well informed.

Morpheus

*morpheus extends the hand of irish friendship to Americas leader as he arrives here representing his country and population*

You see for all this posturing the fact of the matter is that dubya is more welcome by more people than the Anti crowd would care to admit.

Also there are far more people than the Anti peeps want to think about who honestly couldnt give a rats ar$e other than "Cool jets eh?" or "Hey check out that chopper, thats here for george bush man... deadly buzz!" but thats the way ireland is today.

There is a vocal minority in the country, a sizeable vocal minority i should say who while rightfully protesting (and more power to them, although im not opposed to GB and i support the USA in all my north dublin irishedness) nevertheless constantly say and I quote

"The vast majority of irish people dont want GB here"

Now THAT sickens me, where is their proof eh? answer... they HAVE no proof that the vast majority of people protest against him and do you know why? I'll tell you why, its because the vast majority of people will be at home glued to their tellies watching the whole thing on TV either waiting to see the protestors get a wash (what fun!) or to see what GB is proposing that may effect our economy and their pocket, or watching to see if Al Quaeda try to land a ryanair flight on the roof.

They moaned when their posters were removed, and they were rightfully removed for having a political agenda. That law they used to remove them was there before bush so stop looking suprised for chrissakes!!

THATS the true nature of the irish beast today, its a funny old world, go have your protest, let the hippies among you bang pots pans and bongos etc, and let the non-hippies among you nod and clap at the SWP crap (because their agenda is crap, im sorry, but its pure manure my friends) and cheer the mean green machine too, and the spin feiners because your entitled to, by all means have a ball, but please, dont do anything foolish, you will only make the nation as a whole look bad, as well as
running the risk of a quick death from painful high speed lead poisoning.

And the vast majority of irish people will think your mostly prats... but if you are protesting, do it right, get your point across, a national protest, well isnt this democracies finest hour? when we show those other countries what power democracy can give to you, the ordinary citizen, it gives you the right to choose, the right to voice an opinion publicly...

It doesnt give some gob****e the right to spray bleach in the face of a garda who while they may agree with your protests, must follow orders because his family depends on his money keeping food on the table, or a soldier in the same boat. Respect them as fellow citizens doing a job, like i said put your point across, just please do it right and peacefully.

dathi1

THATS the true nature of the irish beast today, its a funny old world, go have your protest, let the hippies among you bang pots pans and bongos etc, and let the non-hippies among you nod and clap at the SWP crap (because their agenda is crap, im sorry, but its pure manure my friends)

Seriously you really think that the majority of people here want Bush!!?? Look the dogs on the street don't want him. There is a tendency of some people of conservative persuasion here to polarise the whole anti neocon, pro Zionist, bush crowd as left swp hippies. I can assure you that there will be a large swath of the political spectrum at the rallies and even right-wingers like myself albeit hard to do with the likes of barret + co...and as for yer man woody above...are you sure you're talking about the same geographical area because there seems to a lot of attacks on occupation forces up to the last hour...civil war my arse.

dahamsta

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
Eh explain what you mean you think I said

Eh, in english now pal.

what exactly what do you mean by "how convenient".

Ordinarily I'd say "you know what I mean", but in your case...

It's typical of posters like you to pick and choose what you reply to from other people's posts. If you're unable to debate something rationally, or if you're plain beaten, you ignore it, pretend it didn't happen. It's juvenile.

Originally posted by vorbis
in a technical sense the war is obviously over.

Excellent, let's get into technicalities! Shall we start by reviewing the fact that this wasn't a war in the first place, hence my quotes around the word. Shall we call it an "illegal invasion"? Would "the illegal invasion isn't over yet" be more accurate?

adam

Morpheus

In the history of the world countries have invaded other countries, whether for economic reasons, pre emptive strikes, regime change... but i can tell you this, theres no such thing as a legal invasion unless the "invadee" has asked to be invaded!! Where do you get off calling it an "illegal" invasion.

It was justified action many fronts...

Here are a number of factors for the invasion....

Saddam was a ba$tard and needed to be removed.

Al Queda IMO was getting funding from him.

Humanitarian reasons, i dont care what you say but gassing 8000 kurds because they were there and he wanted to test out chemical weapons isnt exactly going to improve iraqs chances of non-invasion. The continuing execution of citizens and the extremist right wing para military forces under his control were threats to the population, did you SEE how happy the Iraqis were when Saddam was crushed, you and i KNOW there are foreign fighters pouring into the country for a "Go" at the western devils.

Kuwait was constantly under threat and the middle east lived in fear of that nutjob getting itchy trigger fingers on his scuds.

Were not completely dumb the Oil is important to the world economy of which EU and USA are large beneficiaries, however its a 2 way thing, I for one would rather see the black gold flowing out of Iraq with money flowing INTO their economy, if they can get through this with UN help and get an oil industry on its feet, in 15 years they could be one of the largest economies in the world. Less money being fired into crazy defence programs by an obviously insane leader and a democratically driven government at the helm will improve the standard of life for everyone.

Maybe the Suni and the Shi ite will learn to live together?!

my 2c

dathi1

"Saddam was a ba$tard and needed to be removed." (haha....like Mugabwe in Zimbabwe)

That's half the world that needs to be sorted out.

"Al Queda IMO was getting funding from him."

Even the yanks themselves are now doubting this.

"Humanitarian reasons",

15,000 + killed on invasion alone. The inevitable civil war and break up of Iraq....yes ok.

Kuwait

that other Monarchist dictatorship that should be bombed under the logic you give above.

or you could just say:

1.second largest oil reserve in the world. 2. One last counter threat to Zionist occupation and expansion.

They thought they had it all...the big US embassy..The big oil contracts...A new American colonial post hence the pull out of Saudi.
Even I was surprised by the Iraqi's sense of nationhood and awareness that they where being ****ed over again by the crowd that put him there in the first place.

BACK ON TOPIC who's going to the demo on Friday...Parnell Square 7pm?
we could have a boards meet up?

Hobbes

Originally posted by Morphéus

It was justified action many fronts...

Here are a number of factors for the invasion....

o_O

Saddam was a ba$tard and needed to be removed.

So what dictates that another country should interfer in the state of another? Bush is a ba$tard and needs to be removed. Does that mean we should invade the US?

Al Queda IMO was getting funding from him.

Post proof, because to date there has been absolutly no proof of this. Even the 9/11 commission came to this. Also AQ were on Saddams most wanted list.

Humanitarian reasons, i dont care what you say but gassing 8000 kurds because they were there and he wanted to test out chemical weapons isnt exactly going to improve iraqs chances of non-invasion.

Who supplied the gas? Who sat back and let him do it because it was in the thier intrests to let him?

did you SEE how happy the Iraqis were when Saddam was crushed, you and i KNOW there are foreign fighters pouring into the country for a "Go" at the western devils.

I believe the phrase was "Thanks, now leave our country".

Kuwait was constantly under threat and the middle east lived in fear of that nutjob getting itchy trigger fingers on his scuds.

Kuwait were caught by Iraq stealing oil from thier country (before the first war). The US diplomat to Iraq at the time green lighted the invasion of Kuwait. Even Saddam acknowledged this in his speech when he took Kuwait.

Also the US helped fund him to deal with Iran after the attempt to control Iran (by installing a puppet dictator) failed.

I for one would rather see the black gold flowing out of Iraq with money flowing INTO their economy, if they can get through this with UN help and get an oil industry on its feet, in 15 years they could be one of the largest economies in the world.

It has nothing to do with that. The US supplies all the oil contracts to its own companies who then strip Iraq of its riches and then claim they are helping to rebuild the country. They pulled this sort of crap in Greece too.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Morphéus


Now THAT sickens me, where is their proof eh? answer... they HAVE no proof that the vast majority of people protest against him

http://www.examiner.ie/pport/web/ireland/Full_Story/did-sgxvmeEGpe-Gksg0aewFBADppk.asp [requires *free* registration]

Should Bush visit? 67% say NO

This is according the findings of the Irish Examiner/Prime Time opinion poll, conducted by Lansdowne Market Research.

In dramatic findings that will bring little comfort to the Government, some 67% of people polled in the East constituency said they were not in favour of the visit.

By contrast, 19%, or less than one in five, said they were in favour of Mr Bush arriving to Ireland for a meeting with EU leaders. A total of 14% expressed no opinion.

The poll, carried out in the European Parliament East constituency among a sample of 500 people, indicates widespread opposition among the Irish public to the US occupation of Iraq.

http://www.unison.ie/polls/index.php3?ident=Irish%20Independent&mypollid=1109&vo=1

Should the Government withdraw US President George Bush's invitation to visit Ireland in June?

yes - 52.5%

no - 45.9%

undecided - 1.6%

Slightly closer that one. Still, want to rethink your rant?

sceptre

Originally posted by therecklessone
Slightly closer that one.

There are presumably plenty of people who wouldn't want Bush to visit who reckon the Irish government shouldn't go far as to blatantly tell Tex-Mex to **** a duck.

therecklessone

Originally posted by sceptre
There are presumably plenty of people who wouldn't want Bush to visit who reckon the Irish government shouldn't go far as to blatantly tell Tex-Mex to **** a duck.

Agreed.

Those are the first two polls I found, I believe the Irish Times had a similar one but I'm not a member of ireland.com, maybe someone else could find/post it up?

Morpheus

I welcome the debate, im not here to ram my beliefs down peoples throats, i was unaware about the polls too, thanks...

By the way, that examiner one only the east constituency!
Theres more than one you know

Anyway, im sure that most people who couldnt be arsed about bush coming here or not, couldnt be arsed voting in the poll..

chewy

"The United States is
committed to the worldwide
elimination of torture and
we are leading this fight
by example"
George W.Bush - 26 June 2003

dahamsta

Originally posted by Morphéus
In the history of the world countries have invaded other countries, whether for economic reasons, pre emptive strikes, regime change... but i can tell you this, theres no such thing as a legal invasion unless the "invadee" has asked to be invaded!!

Declaration of war comes in handy too. But of course this is a country that picks and chooses which rules of war it follows, so I guess that's par for the course.

Where do you get off calling it an "illegal" invasion.

It was justified action many fronts...

There's a difference between illegal and justified my friend. Yes, on some fronts it was justified; but on the whole it wasn't. It was virtually a unilateral action made on behalf of and for the benefit of the United States of America in general and the Bush administration in particular. That's where I get off -- it's called the truth.

As to your "factors", my esteemed colleagues have addressed them adequately.

adam

therecklessone

Originally posted by Morphéus

By the way, that examiner one only the east constituency!
Theres more than one you know

I know, thats why I included the information that it was only the East constituency polled. Those were the two polls I found in the short time I looked.

My guess is that Dublin would have returned as high, if not higher, a percentage against the visit, and South and North-West would be slightly less than the figure of 67%. Note, thats a guess.

Originally posted by Morphéus

Anyway, im sure that most people who couldnt be arsed about bush coming here or not, couldnt be arsed voting in the poll..

By that reasoning, everyone who didn't vote in the recent elections favour Fianna Fail. Good luck to ya arguing that one...

MadsL

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Many Americans have an inflated sense of their own infallibility....

Err, based on what exactly? When did you become the expert on the Great American Sense of Ego. More stereotypes for you to peddle - maybe I should ask if you work in fashion??

Please people, don't let this crap go by unchallenged, a majority - that's right a majority of American's did NOT vote for Bush. The jump from American foreign policy to "Americans" is easy but a dangerous generalisation.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
Don't believe them most of these people organising these marches are rabid anti americans have nothing to do with them.

I go to america an quite a regular basis i love the place. My protest is not anti american it is

1.A protest against americas brutal foreign policy

2.A protest against the fact that a neutral county like Ireland is participating in a war that is in breach of international law by allowing the use of the shannon and baldonnell by US forces.

3.A protest against the brutal treatment of people held in Abu graib and guantanamo bay

4.A protest against the fact that George W Bush is using this visit as a stunt to win the support of irish american voters.

5.A protest to show solidarity with the growing Number of americans who are against the war.

pete

Originally posted by Morphéus
It doesnt give some gob****e the right to spray bleach in the face of a garda who while they may agree with your protests, must follow orders because his family depends on his money keeping food on the table, or a soldier in the same boat. Respect them as fellow citizens doing a job, like i said put your point across, just please do it right and peacefully.

Bleach? In the face? Of a garda?

When did that happen?

chewy

when it came on sky news my mother and brother were in the room and saw the spray paint on wille o'dea office on skynews, my mother said it was distructive and didn't like people who didn't protest peacefully, so under that defintion it includes me how is spray paint violent? (ie not peaceful) violence is against person not property wish people learn that, anyone else have family members with distinctly differenet views of the world

my brother said right so theres the war in iraq and the like... but look what he done for this country(the "a" american president) yeah right so clinton helped with the peace process in northern ireland chaired it and brought in investment afterwards... thing is as i now learn that who they invited in were arms companies and john hume showed them around northern ireland so while helping to bring peace and stability to one country it arranges so that same coutnry makes arms so he can bomb another somewhere far away so the northern irish workers won't see it first hand like they did there own troubles




idont think we can trust polls the examiner one was pretty week... em sky news just had 87% no to bush

gaelic cowboy

It took a bit but after much editing of this post I now realise you have been blathering on about my comment to therecklessone much earlier in the thread. Well let tell you a secret don't say it to loud though the war in iraq is over. The actions being carried out now are terrorism not war fullstop. Your coment about my being juvenile and blah bla blab etc etc is quite frankly stupid if you do not explain what your posting and complaining about to me then how am I supposed to respond as a moderator I would have thought you would appreciate that more.

chewy

doesnt give some gob****e the right to spray bleach in the face of a garda who while they may agree with your protests, must follow orders because his family depends on his money keeping food on the table, or a soldier in the same boat. Respect them as fellow citizens doing a job, like i said put your point across, just please do it right and peacefully.

said by morpheus

omigod you actually believe what you read in the papers, exactly as pete said, when did this actually happen... ...? no it didn't. this comes from the people arrested a couple of days before mayday then have gone to squat a place to stay and brought bleach with them to clean the derelict house.... so when they were unfortunately arrested the police find anything then can make it a bigger deal feed the line to the newspapers several newpapers repeated this, its repeated again and finally some body actually believes it?

thaks morpheus another reason to go to shannon....


if food on the family table is the holy grail what happens to the protestor family food while s/he's in jail ?

gaelic cowboy

Well chewy I think he was talking in a generic sense not a specific case correct me if im wrong though.

the_syco

Originally posted by chewy
if food on the family table is the holy grail what happens to the protestor family food while s/he's in jail ?

You do the crime, prepare to do the time.

So you think the Garda shouldn't haven't arrested the people.
[sarc]
I agree totoally. THey should also free the McCabe killers, as they were only trying to make Ireland a better place (in the long run) by getting rid of the Brits.
[/sarc]
So they(the hippies) got arrested for planning to do sometuhing illegal. I suppose you think they should be freed. Lets free the McCabe killers first.
I hear you say "but the McCabe killers are wrong". And so they are. From your point of view. But from who's point of view should we follow?
The Garda have a set point of view. Its called the law. They follow it(mostly), and they keep the McCabe killers locked up. So too do they lock up the "peace" activists who want to demonstrate.

gaelic cowboy

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
Don't believe them most of these people organising these marches are rabid anti americans have nothing to do with them.

Originally posted by AngelofFire
I go to america an quite a regular basis i love the place. My protest is not anti american it is

1.A protest against americas brutal foreign policy

2.A protest against the fact that a neutral county like Ireland is participating in a war that is in breach of international law by allowing the use of the shannon and baldonnell by US forces.

3.A protest against the brutal treatment of people held in Abu graib and guantanamo bay

4.A protest against the fact that George W Bush is using this visit as a stunt to win the support of irish american voters.

5.A protest to show solidarity with the growing Number of americans who are against the war.

I'm talking about the organisers of the marches here not the marchers. If your oganising one I of course do not personally mean you are anti American for all I know you are American. However Sinn Fein on the same platform as the Peace and Neutrality Alliance is hypocracy of the highest order and don't worry you will see them together cos they were the last time out after madrid and before the war. Your reasons for protesting are noble and I can't fault them but as as have stated numerous time on the board the IAWM need to really watch the company they keep.

chewy

there not anti-american they re anti-capitalist.... ok so american is the " captial" of capitalism but as socialist it this they ahve a problem with not americans or even bush as such but the methods he operates under....

"the organisers of the march"

yes there are soem seriously dodgey people organising the iawm marches put that doens't stop you marching.... or if really botehrs you go to another march theres plenty of choice...




gaelic boy re morpheus bleach... of course he talking about that made up rumour why else would he bring it up....

gaelic cowboy

What rumour I never heard any rumour wher is it supposed to have happened ?