England Vs Croatia /France vs Swiss

CivilServant

Originally posted by redspider
England definitely deserved to win that game, alas. In terms of the Rooney second goal, I had a frame-by-frame look at it again as I thought it might have been offside. It wasnt, but what it did show is that Rooney held the ball up until Owen had come back from an off-side position and then timed his one-two to perfection. He still hyad a lot of work to score it from there which he did with aplomb. It was not a case of Owen laying it on a plate for him by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree totally with redspider. Look at Owen in his first game against France, when he was partnered with Heskey. Absolutely abysmal. Not a touch of the ball, no impact at all. Then he's joined by Rooney in match 2, and he begins to come alive. Fact is Rooney makes Owen look good.

If Rooney wasn't there, we'd be looking at a toothless England. Even Vassell managed to look good with Rooney when he headered on for Rooney in England's second match.

eirebhoy

Originally posted by CivilServant
I agree totally with redspider. Look at Owen in his first game against France, when he was partnered with Heskey. Absolutely abysmal. Not a touch of the ball, no impact at all. Then he's joined by Rooney in match 2, and he begins to come alive. Fact is Rooney makes Owen look good.

Owen has been partnered with Rooney for the last 3 matches and still hasn't impressed. I think Owen plays better with Heskey TBH.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by redspider
England definitely deserved to win that game, alas. In terms of the Rooney second goal, I had a frame-by-frame look at it again as I thought it might have been offside. It wasnt, but what it did show is that Rooney held the ball up until Owen had come back from an off-side position and then timed his one-two to perfection. He still hyad a lot of work to score it from there which he did with aplomb. It was not a case of Owen laying it on a plate for him by any stretch of the imagination.

Now ask yourself the question, why was Owen offside? The answer is because Rooney overran it, and Owen strayed offside, he should have released it earlier and my initial reaction when he did pass it was that the chance was lost.

But Owen some how managed to come back collect the pass and then play the perfect ball for Rooney. If you dont think that was put on a plate for Rooney you need to watch it again. An unopposed run from 35 yards direct centre in the goal? He hadnt a hope of missing.

redspider

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
Now ask yourself the question, why was Owen offside? The answer is because Rooney overran it, and Owen strayed offside, he should have released it earlier and my initial reaction when he did pass it was that the chance was lost.

But Owen some how managed to come back collect the pass and then play the perfect ball for Rooney. If you dont think that was put on a plate for Rooney you need to watch it again. An unopposed run from 35 yards direct centre in the goal? He hadnt a hope of missing.

I think you need to look at it again in slow-mo. Owen was in an offside position before Rooney got the ball. Owen was coming back and Rooney held off his pass until he was back onside (in the Craot half). I do think it was a good pass by Owen, but when I looked at it again I was surprised to see how good Rooney engineered the whole move. It was just a simple one-two but well engineered at the same time.

Given that Rooney is playing like a player posessed, if Owen was in the same position as Rooney and had that same clear run at goal he wouldn't have scored. The proof of that was when he got a better chance in the game and fluffed it.

I dont know whats wrong with Michael. Maybe he has bet against himself from scoring?!?

Here are some stats:

No Name MP GS TS ST PS PC FC FS OS YC RC


7 Beckham 90 - 1 - 65 50 3 5 - - -
8 Scholes 70 1 4 4 37 30 1 1 - - -
9 Rooney 72 2 4 4 41 25 1 2 - - -
10 Owen 90 - 1 - 25 20 3 1 - - -
11 Lampard 84 1 4 3 59 49 1 - - - -
14 Phil Neville 6 - - - 8 6 - - - - -
15 King 20 - - - 14 11 - 1 - - -
23 Vassell 18 - - - 5 4 1 1 1 - -
Legend:
MP - Minutes Played GS - Goals scored TS - Total Shots
ST - Shots on target PS - Passes PC - Passes completed
FC - Fouls committed FS - Fouls suffered OS - Offsides
YC - Yellow cards RC - Red cards

So Owen just had that one shot in the whole match and that was wide.
He only passed 25 times but completed 20 of those.
Rooney had 4 shots, 4 on target and 2 goals.
His passing though was poor, but prolific. He was much
more involved with 41 passes, more than Scholes.

PHB

Van nist is on two aswell as Henry, and theres a good chance Van Nist is gona rack some up in the next game.
The question however is that normally the top scorer is on the top 4 teams since they get to play the most games.

So I think its still a wide open race so far

Big Ears

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
While Im not excusing his lack of goals for England what Im trying to highlight is that he offers so much more than goals. His presence is phenominal and his passing is perfect. He is hard as nails too. Him playing has taken the focus of the opposing team members off other England players. There has been no one playing good enough at club level to replace him. His goals record for England is almost as good as Robbie Keane for Ireland.

13 goals in 60 games is far different from Robbie's scoring record . While I rate Scholes a world class when he plays for club , for country he is mediocre , he passing is not perfect, and when u saw tough as nails do u mean , sliding in on players at any chance ? .

mike65

Not sure Keane and Scholes should even be compared as they perform different roles. Keane will never be a midfielder while gingernut is'nt a, and never has been, a striker.

Mike.

Jivin Turkey

Im not comparing Keane and Scholes, just their scoring records, and 60/13 is hardly far off 54/19? Im trying to point out that while Scholes goal scoring record of late isnt great, his overall record is brilliant for a midfielder and almost as good as one of our best strikers.

Ill have to take a look at the replay again Redspider, but my gut reaction when I saw it and then the replay that it was all Owen, Rooney held the ball up too long that put Owen offside, and Owen was brilliant to be able to come back and reverse it back to Rooney.

redspider

Jivin:

Check out the bbc website for virtual replay's of all the goals.
You can look at each goal from numerous angles and in normal
and slow speeds. Its not exactly the real thing but its quite
close and good accurate enough to settle offside situations.

Here is the link for that EN v CR game:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualreplay/euro2004/index.shtml?19045

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by redspider
Jivin:

Check out the bbc website for virtual replay's of all the goals.
You can look at each goal from numerous angles and in normal
and slow speeds. Its not exactly the real thing but its quite
close and good accurate enough to settle offside situations.

Here is the link for that EN v CR game:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/virtualreplay/euro2004/index.shtml?19045

I dont think you can prove anything using that virtual replay to be honest. Besides it not being real its not long enough to show where Rooney could have given the ball. Owen had to come back from an offside position, he was hardly just standing there, he made a typical run and Rooney didnt pick him out. However he was able to come back onside and play Rooney through. No one is giving him credit for this, it was an amazing piece of play. Still though it probably worked out better because of Owens current form I would back Rooney ahead of him to finish from that position.