Bush Just Can't Keep His Nose Out...

BUMP!

...racist stuff...

I'll openly admit what I said above is racist - after all classing a whole society based on the actions is exactly that. However, all the political correctness in the world cant change the SERIOUS tensions that follow these people around (the same problems can be seen in paris). There is at least quite a large percentage of turks that, when they move to a country, act with total disregard for the place they're in. (i.e. total disregard for other cuktures)

And for the record - I couldn't care less about their accents, colour of skin, religion etc. as that doesn't bother me. What does is the knowledge of what trouble tends to follow (perhaps a minority of) these people...

Hobbes

Originally posted by BUMP!
cant change the SERIOUS tensions that follow these people around (the same problems can be seen in paris).

Have you ever hung around with ex-pats in other countries? Shame on them for not adapting to other cultures.

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Sand
Anyway most Europeans are happy to advise the US on how to conduct its internal and external affairs so pot, kettle, black as they say.

Care to elaborate on that, or show some examples of European meddling in US affairs? When has Bush taken any European country's advice on anything? Is the UK not trying to get the rest of it's citizens out of Guantanamo at the minute with little success?

MeatProduct

To comment on the racism and Turks issue I spent 6 months living in Vienna and I found that most of the Turks I saw or encounted were not "nice". Amazing disregard for women, grabing their bums and the like in broad daylight on the main streets.

Now, from what I have heard that seems to be more typical of the Turks that take up in other countries. It would seem that the situation is not so bad in Turkey.

Just observations on my behalf.

To get on topic, Bush would not take too kindly if Bertie told him how to run his dictatorship over the US.

Nick

BUMP!

Have you ever hung around with ex-pats in other countries? Shame on them for not adapting to other cultures.

I know what you are trying to say and to a degree you have a point but if not socialising was the limit of my ignorance then I would be quite happy...
Its quite hard to explain the degree of tensions there were between the Belg's and the turks (mostly because I was only a barely a teenager at the time and didn't quite understand the background) but suffice to say the tensions they stirred were worse than those often attached to the travelling community here.

por

Originally posted by ChipZilla
Care to elaborate on that, or show some examples of European meddling in US affairs? When has Bush taken any European country's advice on anything? Is the UK not trying to get the rest of it's citizens out of Guantanamo at the minute with little success?

All he did was express an opinion, I am sure France and Germany expressed an opinion to the US on the invasion of Iraq.....

When has Bush taken any European country's advice on anything?

Has Europe taken Bush's advice on Turkey joining?, I don't think so...

It's just more Bush bashing if you ask me....

por

Originally posted by MeatProduct


To get on topic, Bush would not take too kindly if Bertie told him how to run his dictatorship over the US.

Nick

Dicatorship, what dictatorship ?. Last time I checked there will be an electon in the US in Nov.

What a stupid comment MeatProduct.

MeatProduct

Originally posted by por
Dicatorship, what dictatorship ?. Last time I checked there will be an electon in the US in Nov.

What a stupid comment MeatProduct.

Yes, an "election".

Nick

Lemming

Originally posted by por
All he did was express an opinion, I am sure France and Germany expressed an opinion to the US on the invasion of Iraq.....

Por .....

*sigh*

as pointed out by others, if it were joe-bloggs american saying it well then all fine and well. Opinions, etc whatnot.

But the leader of a country stood up on the world stage and publicly stated, in front of that same world stage funnily enough, what he thought the leaders of another group of countries should do.

THe supposedly most powerful man in the world gave his opinion whilst speaking in an official capacity in front of the world.

THAT is what makes what he said so controversial. NOT because he's of american, swiss, or little-f*cking-green-martian nationality.

It's just more Bush bashing if you ask me....

Well I'm not asking you because it's not bush bashing for the sake of bush bashing. He made a faux-pas. A rather bad one at that.

por

Originally posted by MeatProduct
Yes, an "election".

Nick

Well there is the predictable Florida re-count conspiracy theory again. Florida would never have been an issue had Gore managed to win his home state on Tennessee.

US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

Have a look at our own election system; I am sure that over the years many a candidate has not been elected due to 'spoiled votes'.

Get over it MeatProduct.

MeatProduct

Originally posted by por
Well there is the predictable Florida re-count conspiracy theory again. Florida would never have been an issue had Gore managed to win his home state on Tennessee.

US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

Have a look at our own election system; I am sure that over the years many a candidate has not been elected due to 'spoiled votes'.

Get over it MeatProduct.

Whoa there tiger! What do I need to get over?

So the Florida issuse is a conspiracy theory now is it? I'll note that down, I have been so wrong about that election it would seem. I better stop thinking for myself now and listen to Fox for some more of that good old bible truth.

For my next feat I'm going to start believing in Jesus. Thanks for the guidance Por, you really helped me out.

Nick

Lemming

Originally posted by por
US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

I love when this line gets trotted out by the rabid right.

Tell me por, what happens when someone buys out/corrupts the voting system?

You get shafted and they get their way. or something like that. Yes?


What happens when a dictator takes away the voting system?

You get shafted and they get their way. or something like that. Yes?

There's a fine line between the two and sometimes you don't even know where it is .....

The Corinthian

Originally posted by por
All he did was express an opinion, I am sure France and Germany expressed an opinion to the US on the invasion of Iraq.....

An opinion can become an order or instruction depending on how it is delivered.

But even taking what he said as a simple opinion, it was directed at the EU itself and not at the EU’s policy towards either the US or EU foreign relations. It would be akin to instructing the US to make Puerto Rico a full state of the USA (it is presently a protectorate) or, as Chirac suggested, how to conduct foreign policy with Mexico. Diplomatically to do so is a big no-no.

Most insulting is that he suggested that Turkey’s admission into the EU would “prove that Europe is not the exclusive club of a single religion, and it would expose the 'clash of civilisations' as a passing myth of history” - effectively relegating Europe to the role of another tool of US foreign policy.

As a result, Turkey - regardless of the merits of her claim - will probably have membership further delayed in response to Bush’s comments.

All in all, a desperate diplomatic blunder.

por

Originally posted by Lemming

Tell me por, what happens when someone buys out/corrupts the voting system?

Can you back up that statment please ?.

Sand

Re: Europeans ( or their leaders if we want to split hairs) would never tell another country how to run its own shop

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2863175.stm

Arrogant, meddling bastards eh? Telling a sovereign nation how to run its own internal affairs. Not only exspressing an opinion, but actually running off to the UN to try and force their view down the throats of another government.

I dont know which is more hilarious, the self righteous blinkers or the desperate, irrational and mindless hatred of Bush that attempts to turn everything he does or says into "the worst thing evah!!!"

Please continue to discredit yourselves though.

As regards the future of Turkey - lets be clear here. Turkey is slowly but surely becoming a liberal democracy, and a muslim one at that - as such a great example to the people of the middle east. THE major carrot is EU membership. EU membership is good for Turkey but its also good for the EU, as we will have a liberal, democratic and eventually prosperous Turkey in the EU rather than the alternative which is a illiberal, undemocratic and desperately poor Turkey right up on the EUs border.

Worries about a muslim nation being the 2nd largest in the EU are fairly petty. Gradually, EU institutions will be given a direct mandate from the people so nations will take a backseat anyway.

As for the pot, kettle, black thing - its a phrase, signifying someone criticising another for something that they are equally guilty of. An example would be Euros citicising the US for sponsoring terrorism, probably blissfully unaware that the EU sponsors the PA, which pays the families of suicide bombers carrying out terrorist attacks in Israel. Hilariously, this will often be accompanied by a tirade against Americans for not knowing or caring whats done in their name around the world.

Lemming

Originally posted by por
Can you back up that statment please ?.

Do a google. You'll find plenty of info. I'm too busy with work to do it for you. But you'll find something on the judge who presided over the florida recount case, who was, if I recall, not only a card-carryign member of the republican party but was also involved in some way in the actual election campaign .......

Or the thousands who were incorrectly struck off the register by Jeb Bush?

impartiality lost perhaps?

Hobbes

Originally posted by por
Well there is the predictable Florida re-count conspiracy theory again. Florida would never have been an issue had Gore managed to win his home state on Tennessee.

It is only a conspiracy is you can't prove it.

Known facts.

- Electronic Voting machines gave incorrect voting tallies in some areas. The most famous being "-16,000" votes assigned to Al Gore. After the audit it was found that the 16,000 votes were moved to others.

- While a major turnout was expected, not all precidents were given enough voter cards to allow people to vote.

- A police checkpoint (one reported) was set up and was caught turning away people to vote.

- Voters removed from the chance to vote by being put on the felons list by accident. The company that controlled this list was a major contributor to Bushes election campaign.

- Polling stations closed early in some areas.

- Some polling stations even moved location without notice.

- Many African Americans could not vote as the polling stations could not confirm they were allowed to. (A lot of these people got a cash settlement some months later)

- Lots of Haitian and Puerto Rican voters were not provided required language assistance.

- If you were African American you were 10 times more likely to have your vote marked as spoiled in Florida then any other state.

- 54% of the spoiled vote in Florida recount was made up by the African-American vote.

- At the end of the day Bush was voted in by the govenment by people who were put in to power by his daddy.

These are all proven facts after an investigation by the US Civil Rights commission.

A large majority of African Americans, Haitians and Latinos were denied the right to vote when legally they could.

It makes Saddams "100% vote" look cheap. The US at least tried to make it look like it was legitimate. If this had happened in any other country the US would be spouting off about freedom and democracy and how the US has a better voting system.

... anyway the US voting system is kind of a farce anyway. You end up with a choice between two people. What happens when these two people have similar agendas?

sceptre

Originally posted by por
US electors have the chance to make a decision in Nov, something that dictators never give their citizens.

Pinochet did. Mind you, he didn't think he was going to lose.

Marcos did. Mind you in round one he took steps to make sure he didn't lose.

I'm sure I can find a few who weren't coincidentally propped up by the US

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Re: Europeans ( or their leaders if we want to split hairs) would never tell another country how to run its own shop

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/2863175.stm

Arrogant, meddling bastards eh? Telling a sovereign nation how to run its own internal affairs. Not only exspressing an opinion, but actually running off to the UN to try and force their view down the throats of another government.

Such an opinion went much further than the usual lip service meted out by Western governments on issues such as human rights or even trade. It concerned the sovereign nature or identity of an independent political entity.

You’ll note that we (or the US) do not telling the Chinese whether or not either Taiwan or Tibet are or should be part of their sovereign state, for example. The Germans have never suggested that the UK should hand back the six counties, or the US suggested to Spain and France that the Basques should be allowed to secede.

In fact the only example of such an intervention that comes to mind was Clinton’s call for unity to Quebec on the eve of the plebiscite that could have resulted in it’s secession - and that was only with the cooperation of the Canadian government.

Sand

Such an opinion went much further than the usual lip service meted out by Western governments on issues such as human rights or even trade. It concerned the sovereign nature or identity of an independent political entity.

Youre right, the EU went beyond the lip service of saying that we hope all nations embrace genuine respect for human rights and named and critixed China specifically for purely internal affairs. It then went to an international body to censure the Chinese for not doing as the EU expects in purely Chinese internal affairs.

It did indeed go much farther than Bush demonstrating his friendship to the Turks by supporting their candidacy for the EU in a speech whilst visiting the Turks - a speech that was well received by the Turks themselves.

Honestly TC, Ive a good deal of respect for you as being one of the most intelligent posters on the board. Why youre getting into such a fit about Bush doing what every single politician does mystifies me.

Politicians giving their opinion on how other countries/groups operate and should operate is practically one of the definitions of international politics. Hell the EU has been providing constant commentary on how the coalition should operate Iraq, which does not concern them anymore than Turkey concerns the US.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Youre right, the EU went beyond the lip service of saying that we hope all nations embrace genuine respect for human rights and named and critixed China specifically for purely internal affairs. It then went to an international body to censure the Chinese for not doing as the EU expects in purely Chinese internal affairs.

Please don’t attempt to misrepresent my statements - I was clearly referring to the Bush statement.

The principle point I made is that it went well beyond the normal meddlesome statements that are the standard fare in international diplomacy. Were Ireland chastised for corruption by another nation, that would be irritating to say the least. However, were Ireland told that we should abandon our claim to Northern Ireland by that other nation, then that would be enraging.

There’s a huge divide between a meddlesome statement that interferes with the internal administration of a sovereign state and one that instructs that state to fundamentally redefine itself and its borders.

You however would contend that instructing another nation on how to define it’s borders is no more offensive than chastising it on its record in human rights. As I’ve repeatedly said, I do not consider the two to be comparable or that otherwise would not share such a blasé attitude towards my European identity as you would appear to do.

It did indeed go much farther than Bush demonstrating his friendship to the Turks by supporting their candidacy for the EU in a speech whilst visiting the Turks - a speech that was well received by the Turks themselves.

I do not deny his motivations at all. But I do object the EU being used as a political gimp, for the purposes of boosting the popularity of foreign head of state.

BUMP!

Just thinkin there - if it was Clinton who had come out and made those remarks there probably wouldn't have been so much as a stir. Of course Clinton would have been much more sensitive to the situation and would have not basically insulted half of europe whereas wubya is just talking out his ass and is just saying it to get IN with the turks. Hey, he probably figures that they may need extra allies when he finally starts WW3: Christians v Muslims(and anyone wubya doesn't LIKE).

Lemming

Originally posted by BUMP!
Just thinkin there - if it was Clinton who had come out and made those remarks there probably wouldn't have been so much as a stir. Of course Clinton would have been much more sensitive to the situation and would have not basically insulted half of europe whereas wubya is just talking out his ass and is just saying it to get IN with the turks. Hey, he probably figures that they may need extra allies when he finally starts WW3: Christians v Muslims(and anyone wubya doesn't LIKE).

I still think that irregardless of whom had said it, it would have caused dissent. It's not a case of "because Bush said it", and more a case of what was said being a serious faux-pas by a foreign head of state. The fact that it was Bush that said it only rubs salt in the proverbial wound. Had it been Clinton, perhaps it wouldn't have been as bad, but still most unwelcome.

BUMP!

True, but my real point is that since Bush took over - partly because of the way he did (is perceived to have done) it - Anti-American sentiment has rocketed in so called American countries - could you imagine what its like in non-America-friendly countries? The taliban in their struggle against the west must be becoming the stuff of folk legend to these people. And to be honest that scares the sh1t out of me!
He has to learn that there's a time to be blunt but theres a reason for diplomacy...

Lemming

Originally posted by BUMP!
He has to learn that there's a time to be blunt but theres a reason for diplomacy...

If he has to be told that then he has absolutely no business in politics, much less holding the office that he holds.

BUMP!

Thats just it - even IF he were a political genius he is also an embassador and a symbol for his country and if he is so widely disliked or unrespected by the foreign community then he is always going to do damage to the country in the long run.

vorbis

sorry nut I just can't see this as something major. Bush gave a speech IN Turkey advocating that Turkey should join the EU. Turkey is a major US ALLY. It certainly wasn't an order to the EU. For me such statements are par for the course.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Lemming
If he has to be told that then he has absolutely no business in politics, much less holding the office that he holds.

He has every right to be in politics, as does anyone else, in a democracy.

Originally posted by vorbis
Bush gave a speech IN Turkey advocating that Turkey should join the EU. Turkey is a major US ALLY. It certainly wasn't an order to the EU. For me such statements are par for the course.

He did not simply advocate that Turkey should join the EU, he advocated that the EU should give Turkey an entry date - perhaps not an order, but certainly more that a simple suggestion.

And if such statements are par for the course, then you might point out other, non-UN, statements that suggest or instruct the rewriting of the borders of a separate and sovereign foreign entity.

Lemming

Originally posted by The Corinthian
He has every right to be in politics, as does anyone else, in a democracy.

Tsk tsk Corrie. Yer slipping

I never said he didn't have the right to be in politics, I just said he has no business being in politics if he cannot make simple distinctions that would be considered part of the basic skillset required for the profession. He isn't suited to it and really shouldn't be holding the office he's in as a result.

For example (although going somewhat off-topic), if somone had to be told the concept of a 'for' loop in programming after professing to have been a programmer for several years Corrie, would it not be prudent to be somewhat quizzical as to whether or not that person is suited to, and should really be in, the programming profession?

sovtek

Originally posted by por
Dicatorship, what dictatorship ?. Last time I checked there will be an electon in the US in Nov.

Like the (s)election in 2000?
Just stay away from those electronic gambli*cough*...sorry VOTING machines!