Reprogramming mp3 player

Steveire

i have a creative 30gb mp3 player, and there's a few things in the OS that i'd like to change. for one thing i'd add a 'play any album' feature. there's an OS upgrade on the creative website, is there a program i can use to edit the new os before i install it? Has anyone even done this before?

hostyle

There is a linux on iPod project but none for the Creative players so I don't think what you want is possible as yet, unless you have a go at it yourself - which would not be for the faint of heart.

Steveire

so is it actually possible to reverse engineer the .exe file?
if i could get to edit it, i'm sure i could do what i want to it.

martinoc

The OS and its code is owned by Creative Labs. Attempting to reverse engineer the .exe file is most assuradly illegal. There is also no telling what damage you could do the mp3 player without knowing how its processor and memory model works. So either write an OS yourself, or ask Creative Labs to modify thiers, or better yet, ask them for permission to modify thier code.

hostyle

IANAL but I don't think reverse engineering is illegal anywhere outside the USA. Course if you actually reverse engineered it and then visited the US you might just find yourself arrested and thrown in jail awaiting trial.

satchmo

Maybe if you reverse engineered it, went to the states, set up a digital music player manufacturing company, and based your OS on Creative's. I think you're pretty safe otherwise.

Hobbes

Originally posted by hostyle
IANAL but I don't think reverse engineering is illegal anywhere outside the USA. Course if you actually reverse engineered it and then visited the US you might just find yourself arrested and thrown in jail awaiting trial.

Its the other way around, and reverse engineering normally requires a team of people to stop people from getting legally sued.

For example the person who rewrites must never of seen any code or program.

But changing the code is well out of the scope of the casual developer. You would need to know the devices OS/API calls.

martinoc

You would need to know the devices OS/API calls.

Like I said before, you could damage the player if you don't know exactly what you're doing.

Gavin

Originally posted by martinoc
The OS and its code is owned by Creative Labs. Attempting to reverse engineer the .exe file is most assuradly illegal. There is also no telling what damage you could do the mp3 player without knowing how its processor and memory model works. So either write an OS yourself, or ask Creative Labs to modify thiers, or better yet, ask them for permission to modify thier code.

Copyright and related rights act 2000, chapter 2, section 82.

It is not an infringement of the copyright in a computer program for a lawful user of a copy of the computer program to make a permanent or temporary copy of the whole or a part of the program by any means and in any form or to translate, adapt or arrange or in any other way alter the computer program where such actions are necessary for the use of the program by the lawful user in accordance with its intended purpose, including error correction.

So yeah, its legal to do it. Highl unlikely you'd be able to do it, given you are asking the question.

Gav

hostyle

Originally posted by Hobbes
Its the other way around

eh? Its illegal outside the US to reverse engineer? But not inside? Whats the DMCA then? Or did you just out-confuse me?

radiospan

There's a forum about reverse engineeing the Zen firmware on www.nomadness.net .

martinoc

Originally posted by Verb

So yeah, its legal to do it. Highl unlikely you'd be able to do it, given you are asking the question.

Gav [/B]

It is not an infringement of the copyright in a computer program for a lawful user of a copy of the computer program to make a permanent or temporary copy of the whole or a part of the program by any means and in any form or to translate, adapt or arrange or in any other way alter the computer program where such actions are necessary for the use of the program by the lawful user in accordance with its intended purpose, including error correction.

The software comes with a license agreement which determines that the user is a lawful user. If the license agreement is broken, then the user is no longer a lawful user. Reverse engineering is covered under the license agreement, which when broken ,invalidates the users right to use the program and therefor is not a lawful, therefore said user is infringing copyright.

Hobbes

Originally posted by hostyle
eh? Its illegal outside the US to reverse engineer? But not inside? Whats the DMCA then? Or did you just out-confuse me?

DOH! Misread you. Sorry.

Gavin

Originally posted by martinoc
The software comes with a license agreement which determines that the user is a lawful user. If the license agreement is broken, then the user is no longer a lawful user. Reverse engineering is covered under the license agreement, which when broken ,invalidates the users right to use the program and therefor is not a lawful, therefore said user is infringing copyright.

I am not a lawyer (aha, finally, thats what ianal is ),.
A lawful owner is defined under law, not under a companies terms and conditions. Thus relying on the license agreements definition of a lawful user would not, I belive, be valid in current irish law.

That is, if a company states that reverse engineering is illegal, but the law states otherwise, what do you think would happen in court ?

Gav

stevenmu

XDA Developers have reverse engineered XDAs to get sim-free and other bits and pieces. They seem to have gotten around copyright issues by not providing the software itself from their site, instead they provide toolkits which have the changes built in. In general if you just keep your mods to yourself or at the very least make sure you state stronly that creative has nothing to do with them and they may damage the player Creative won't really care. Because it's civil ,as opposed to criminal, law then if they don't complain it's not illegal If they start getting players in for repair with your modded OS on them though ,they'll crucify you. :eek:

martinoc

Originally posted by Verb
I am not a lawyer (aha, finally, thats what ianal is ),.
A lawful owner is defined under law, not under a companies terms and conditions. Thus relying on the license agreements definition of a lawful user would not, I belive, be valid in current irish law.

That is, if a company states that reverse engineering is illegal, but the law states otherwise, what do you think would happen in court ?

Gav

You have to look at exactly what the company sells you. They sell you the hardware and software media. They also sell you a license to use the copy of the software. They do not sell you the software itself. They still own it.

As I pointed out in my last post, the law does not state otherwise.

Gavin

I will quote again.

It is not an infringement of the copyright in a computer program for a lawful user of a copy of the computer program to make a permanent or temporary copy of the whole or a part of the program by any means and in any form or to translate, adapt or arrange or in any other way alter the computer program where such actions are necessary for the use of the program by the lawful user in accordance with its intended purpose, including error correction.

When software is paid for, the user becomes a lawful user. They have entered into a contract with the software developer/proprieter. At this point, they have the rights as afforded them as lawful owners, including the right as stated above. They do not own the copyright, but they do own a copy of the software, as a lawful user.

It is perfectly legal to adapt, rearrange an application to achieve interoperability and for necessary use of the program as stated above. That is the law. There is no argument with that.

I'm finishing with that, demonstrate law to prove your point.

Gav

Hobbes

Originally posted by Verb
They do not own the copyright, but they do own a copy of the software, as a lawful user.

Actually you don't buy the copy. You buy the right to use the program.

Modifying existing code is generally illegal in nearly all UAL's.

Talliesin

This is a free country and reverse engineering is currently legal, though the right isn't explicitly protected (unlike, say, Australia and Russia, though they limit the cases where you can reverse-engineer and what you can do with the information). Unfortunately the right is under threat.

Syth

The programme itself is almost certainly copyrighted, so it's copyright infringement (and hence illegal) it modify it. If hoever it's released under an open source licence like the GNU General Public Licence, then it's perfectly legal to modify it, but that's unlikely (though it'd be cool if it did).

Reverse engineering some mechanical device like a car is (as far as I know) legal. Reverse engineering some software code is a totally different kettle of fish. Software is covered by copyright. By default only the owner of the copyright can create derivative works (ie modify it to suit your needs), so simple hackers like us can't.

When software is paid for, the user becomes a lawful user.

Yes and no. You own the software but the right to copy it (the copyright) is still not yours, so you can't hack it. For example I can go into a shop and buy a DVD. I own the DVD, but I don't own the copyrighted material on the DVD, so I can't start making copys of it and selling them.

The freedom to change a programme to suit your needs, to change it to make it better is one of the freedoms guaranteed by free/open source software.

Gavin

Originally posted by Syth
The programme itself is almost certainly copyrighted, so it's copyright infringement (and hence illegal) it modify it. If hoever it's released under an open source licence like the GNU General Public Licence, then it's perfectly legal to modify it, but that's unlikely (though it'd be cool if it did).

Incorrect. Read the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000, particularly the section I pasted.

Reverse engineering some mechanical device like a car is (as far as I know) legal. Reverse engineering some software code is a totally different kettle of fish. Software is covered by copyright. By default only the owner of the copyright can create derivative works (ie modify it to suit your needs), so simple hackers like us can't.

Incorrect. Read the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000, particularly the section I pasted. The section entitled 'Exceptions to infringement of copyright in computer programs.'

Yes and no. You own the software but the right to copy it (the copyright) is still not yours, so you can't hack it. For example I can go into a shop and buy a DVD. I own the DVD, but I don't own the copyrighted material on the DVD, so I can't start making copys of it and selling them.

That is correct. As a lawful user you are not permitted that right under the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000.

The freedom to change a programme to suit your needs, to change it to make it better is one of the freedoms guaranteed by free/open source software.

That's nice. Perhaps you are missing something, or I'm not saying it enough. I'll say it again. Read the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000, particularly the section I pasted.

If for some reason you can't find it in Google, here is a link http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA28Y2000.html

I'm sorry for posting again on this, it just irks me.

Gav

Syth

Read the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000, particularly the section I pasted.

OK, i did. It seems that us commers only have certain rights to modify the code. We can only modify the code "where such actions are necessary for the use of the program by the lawful user in accordance with its intended purpose, including error correction." I don't think that includes adding features to the original OS (as the thread starter asked).

It would be fantastic if legally all users could change code to improve it, but it seems we are only able to change it to make it work, not necessarily to make it better.

Besides if we were legally allowed to make some code better we would have to have access to the source code. Try ringing up the MP3 player manufacturer and asking for the code.

NiceGuyEddy

So NO he can't then