Happy Clicksilver user

tomk

Here's the situation. I'm a Clicksilver user, and I am very happy with the service. I'm not a gamer, and I don't think I'm likely to become a gamer. Apart from well-publicised outages around Easter, I have had rock-solid performance from UTV, and I would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone (except gamers, of course).

Now I know that there are boardsies who have had problems with Clicksilver, and I completely support their efforts to obtain the service they require. My point in starting this thread is that despite the torrent of unfavourable posts here about Clicksilver in recent times, I have always been, and I expect to remain, a very satisfied customer of UTV. This post is based entirely on my own experience with the service, and is intended to address what I perceive to be an unbalanced impression of the Clicksilver service.

I'm now going to put on my flameproof pyjamas, sit back, and enjoy the fireworks.

PiE

I don't think anyone has any problems with UTV being used for browsing/email etc. For standard use it's perfectly fine.

Step outside that demographic and it's a whole different kettle of fish.

jonski

As one of their main detractors of the last few months maybe I should give a more balanced acount of my experience with UTV than I have been giving . ( I will probably be in more danger than you for this Tomk )

Ok , it doesnt work for gamers , but I suppose if we had read up a bit better we were warned about this at the beginning , we just chose to ignore it because of the good feeling we had for UTV because of the UTVip thing . If I was a surfer/browser/moderate to high d/ler by 512 standards , I think I would have to say that I was happy with the service . And if I thought that someone else like that would recieved the same standard of bb service that I did , I would still reccomend it to them . I sufered the proxy thing , but in fairness it was easily solved , I suffered the d/l speed issue , but also that wasn't really a problem because I wasn't in that much of a hurry to get the things d/led ( what the hell it was "always on", feck of to work or bed and leave it come down in its own time ). The support guys on the phone/mail/newsgroup were always nice to deal and seemed sympathic and to try and do whatever was within their control .

What I would say is that it takes a substantial amount of ppl to voice their concerns before a significant problem is sorted if its sortable . take the d/l speed issue , it took at least 2 months if I remember corectly of ppl badgering them constantly ( mainly dub45 , who despite all the backlash he recieved was proved 100% correct)before they finally conceded that it was eminently fixable and was done so in quick time. Its the same I fear now in newsgroup with "8 minute " pause thing which is recieving no comment from UTV ( i must admit myself , i don't notice it ) .

Lastly , I do believe that the "ping issue" is outside of UTV's control , I think the problem lies within the nevadatel network where the hand off is. ( i don't like my isp not having control of the service its customers receive )(also I am ready to be corected on this ). The lack of comment by UTV on this infuriates me to the point of finishing with them in august when my contract expires , it is probably a business policy but still I am not a business man , I'm a punter , brought up by Gerry Ryan to complain if I'm not geting the service I'm paying for ( pings tonight and for the last few weeks are 150 to 200 between the hours of 8 and 12 ).

enough of my whinging for now.........

John

dub45

Jonski you forgot to mention that people like yourself have given UTV lots of data in the support group at their request so as to allow them to work on the ping issue.

I am not a gamer myself but it does concern me when I see fellow customers being treated in this way.

There is also the fact yet again of UTV's attitude (and I love reminding people about this in case it is forgotten:) to passing on the reduced prices when Eircom lowered their wholesale rates. People like yourself who are understandably reluctant to commit themselves to a further 12 months of dire pings and apathy towards the issue from UTV are being financially penalised through UTV's failure to pass on the savings to you.

And if anyone thinks I am being unfair to UTV in saying they are apathetic towards the issue here is the last post in the support group from them on 28th June:

'' .....our internal usage graphs showed nothing out of ordinary so I've escalated these
reports, yet again :-( , to our network team for investigation. So far they
have been unable to come back to me with anything that I can pass on as to
the cause (either internally or externally). I will post back as soon as I
have anything.''

Bear in mind that UTV have been having complaints about pings almost from the inception of Clicksilver - just checking back through the support group now and I can see the issue being raised by Jonski last September. Surely Utv have had more than enough opportunity to sort out the issue by now?

kin9pin

I have to say I agree with what's been said so far. For normal browsing/downloading the service is fine.
My problem, being a gamer, isn't necessarily the fact that UTV pings are 30ms higher than Eircon & IOL (I'm estimating here so no stats please). I got used to playing cs/ut2004 etc with pings fluctuating from 45 to 75 and I don't really think that a ping averaging around 60 is too much of a disadvantage against a ping of say 30.

My problem is watching pings hit 200ms, then posting on the newsgroup along with everyone else only to get fobbed off with "I'll pass it on" from utv support. This has been going on for days now.
The fact that last night pings shot back down after midnight would point to contention wouldn't it? But wait a minute, aren't I paying an extra €15 per month to get a lower contention ratio? Or is that just a scam?

Anyway, I've had my rant, let off a bit of steam, so feel free to pick my comments to pieces while I do a bit or work.

tomk

Thanks for the contributions folks. As alluded to in my original post, I believe it is everyone's right, and possibly everyone's duty, to complain if they are not getting the service to which they believe they are entitled.

Apart from the pings issue, which has no relevance for me, and the Easter outages, I have never had slow download speeds, I have not been affected by the proxy issue, I have not had to adjust my MTU (since I changed over from USB to Ethernet), and I am not being affected by the 8 minute pause.

Is it possible that I am unique? Or just unique in a Boards context? Am I UTV's only satisfied customer?

Like I said, this is my experience of the service. Reading posts here, it's often seemed like we're dealing with completely separate ISPs.

Stephen

I find UTV great for general browsing and downloading - I regularly download stuff at about 53KB/sec, but I like to play the odd game too, and for that it is just ****.

dub45

Originally posted by tomk
Thanks for the contributions folks. As alluded to in my
Is it possible that I am unique? Or just unique in a Boards context? Am I UTV's only satisfied customer?

.

I am sure you are unique! And I am sure there are lots of Clicksilver customers who are very happy.

However even happy customers should be concerned at the way UTV have treated the pings issue as it displays the company's attitude to a certain group of other customers who are not so happy!

Even happy customers should be concerned at UTV's failure to pass on the wholesale reductions in price to existing customers who did not want to commit to a futher 12 months. (Imagine the outcry there would have been if Eircom themselves had tried to pull a stunt like that?)

I should point out to you that at one stage Jonski would have defended UTV very stroingly indeed.

How long have you been a Clicksilver customer?

tomk

Signed up end of June last year, dub, and was live on 14 July.

I'm not aware of the manner in which UTV have been dealing with the various complaints - not having any myself, why would I be?

Similarly, from the perspective of a happy customer, UTV's business decision to make the lowered prices subject to a new contract is absolutely irrelevant - I signed up for the €45/month CS Plus product the day it was launched.

Ripwave

Originally posted by dub45
IEven happy customers should be concerned at UTV's failure to pass on the wholesale reductions in price to existing customers who did not want to commit to a futher 12 months. (Imagine the outcry there would have been if Eircom themselves had tried to pull a stunt like that?)

Get real - eircom charged every single one of of their customers, new and old, €10 a month more than UTV did - now that's what I call a stunt! UTV declined to take money off their committed customers to give it to people who planned to split.

If I was a UTV customer, I'd be really concerned if UTV wasted my sub on people who weren't going to stick around anyway.

jonski

Originally posted by Ripwave
If I was a UTV customer, I'd be really concerned if UTV wasted my sub on people who weren't going to stick around anyway.

But how did UTV come to the conclusion that people were gonna split ?

And do you not think that people that were 50/50 , well this just pushed them over ?

And lets be honest here , the only people thinking of splitting were the people with ping issues , and these who are obviously in the minority , are gonna go anyway . So why penalise the rest who are in the majority ?

John.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by jonski
But how did UTV come to the conclusion that people were gonna split ?

The refusal to commit to a contract would be a dead giveaway.

And do you not think that people that were 50/50 , well this just pushed them over ?

I honestly don't think I need to go past two hands to count the number of distinct individuals I've seen complaining about the new contract terms, or indeed about Clicksilver in general. How worried do you think UTV really are about that handful leaving, and taking their complaints to another provider?

And lets be honest here , the only people thinking of splitting were the people with ping issues , and these who are obviously in the minority , are gonna go anyway . So why penalise the rest who are in the majority ?

How are the rest being penalised? If they don't have a problem with the service, what's the problem with signing up to a new contract? The fact remains that the majority were "penalised" with a monthly charge €10 lower than Eircom's.

dub45

Originally posted by Ripwave
Get real - eircom charged every single one of of their customers, new and old, €10 a month more than UTV did - now that's what I call a stunt! UTV declined to take money off their committed customers to give it to people who planned to split.

If I was a UTV customer, I'd be really concerned if UTV wasted my sub on people who weren't going to stick around anyway.

But you are not a customer of UTV if you are so concerned about them and enthusiastic why arent you?

dub45

Originally posted by oscarBravo
The refusal to commit to a contract would be a dead giveaway. I honestly don't think I need to go past two hands to count the number of distinct individuals I've seen complaining about the new contract terms, or indeed about Clicksilver in general. How worried do you think UTV really are about that handful leaving, and taking their complaints to another provider? How are the rest being penalised? If they don't have a problem with the service, what's the problem with signing up to a new contract? The fact remains that the majority were "penalised" with a monthly charge €10 lower than Eircom's.

UTV obviously are adopting a Ryanair apporach pile them in and if a few cusomters are dissatisfied so what? Jonski has been an enthusiastic customer of UTV for a long time - he is now paying more than an eircom customer for what is for him an unsatisfactory service. UTV pulled a fast one its as simple as that!

jonski

Originally posted by oscarBravo
The refusal to commit to a contract would be a dead giveaway. I honestly don't think I need to go past two hands to count the number of distinct individuals I've seen complaining about the new contract terms, or indeed about Clicksilver in general. How worried do you think UTV really are about that handful leaving, and taking their complaints to another provider? How are the rest being penalised? If they don't have a problem with the service, what's the problem with signing up to a new contract? The fact remains that the majority were "penalised" with a monthly charge €10 lower than Eircom's.

Can't do the seperate quote things so ,

UTV came up with the new contract thing before people got a chance to say yes or no so they didn't know there was a refusal to commit .
Get on newsgroup and see how many are complaining ( mostly if not all gamers I admit )
If the new provider has good ping times I won't be taking any complaints to them
True about the "majority being penalised " thing . But they were the only company to insist on it , but I see your point indeed .

John

My issues are totally gamer related , I am not a kid ( in fact I am probably too old to be playing games onlin ) , but the total lack of response from UTV is infuriating . and if you look back over my posts concerning UTV , it has always been gamer related . Tell me I'm wrong to be pissed off .

Terra

I'm a relatively new utv customer...just got connected in may....but I must say I'm very happy with it.


I used it for almost everything you can think of it and I play games like ut2004 and starcraft online and I most say that I'm getting fine pings....

well like 50 to 80 but there very playable..

Also the phone bills are a lot cheaper then when I was eircom....

Impressed so far with the service.

jonski

Originally posted by Terra
well like 50 to 80 but there very playable..
.

If you have time you might do a ping and tracert during peak time and post it here , also what server are you playing on mostly .

oscarBravo

Originally posted by dub45
UTV obviously are adopting a Ryanair apporach pile them in and if a few cusomters are dissatisfied so what?

Good analogy - a low-cost operator that shook the market up. Remember that for all the bad press, most Ryanair customers are happy customers.

Jonski has been an enthusiastic customer of UTV for a long time - he is now paying more than an eircom customer for what is for him an unsatisfactory service.

Presumably when his contract expires, he'll jump ship. Why should UTV lose money on him?

UTV pulled a fast one its as simple as that!

If it was as simple as that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by jonski
Can't do the seperate quote things so ,

Just surround each quoted block with [quote][b] and [/b][/quote].

UTV came up with the new contract thing before people got a chance to say yes or no so they didn't know there was a refusal to commit .

How could people say yes or no to a new contract before UTV came up with it? You're not making sense.

Get on newsgroup and see how many are complaining ( mostly if not all gamers I admit )

I was on the newsgroup for as long as I was on UTVipXL. My comment stands.

True about the "majority being penalised " thing . But they were the only company to insist on it , but I see your point indeed .

There was no insistence: there was a choice.

jonski

This just goes round and round in circles , so I will leave you with my last comment from my last post which you failed to reply to

My issues are totally gamer related , I am not a kid ( in fact I am probably too old to be playing games online ) , but the total lack of response from UTV is infuriating . and if you look back over my posts concerning UTV , it has always been gamer related . Tell me I'm wrong to be pissed off .

and btw , tks for the quote /quote thingy .

John.

dub45

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Good analogy - a low-cost operator that shook the market up. Remember that for all the bad press, most Ryanair customers are happy customers. Presumably when his contract expires, he'll jump ship. Why should UTV lose money on him? If it was as simple as that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Ryanair dont ask you to commit to future flying with them to avail of new prices. All customers get the same opportunity to avail of their prices as far as I am aware.

You fail to acknowledge that Jonski has been a loyal customer of UTV and as far as I know would be quite happy to stay with them if they provided the service he asks them for and which other isps appear to have no difficutly in providing. He has provided loads of data to them to help them tackle the ping thing and yet not alone do UTV fail to provide the service they continue to ignore this issue other than to say they have nothing to report. Because of this failure he will most unlikely renew his contract.

Potential and existing customers should note this attitude from UTV.

UTV pulled a fast one. Most people would expect that any significant savings which a supplier is able to avail of would be passed onto customers. If the wholesale price of milk goes down you dont expect your grocer to require you to commmit yourself to buying milk at his premises for the next year before you can get the new price. I am sure if wholesale prices had goine up UTV would have managed to pass them on very quickly to all of their customers.

And as you cannot access the UTV newsgroup it would appear that yet again its a non clicksilver customer telling us how we should all be feeling about the clicksilver service.

But it is great that you persist in defending UTV as it allows the way UTV behaved when savings were available to be passed on to customers to be kept in public view any potential customers.

So any potential clicksilver customers should be aware that the last time savings were available to be passed on to customers those customers were required to commit for a further 12 months before they could avail of the savings, Otherwise you were left on the old rate - this may suit you and your circumstances and it may not but be aware that this is how UTV behaves.

thehurler

Originally posted by dub45
Ryanair dont ask you to commit to future flying with them to avail of new prices. All customers get the same opportunity to avail of their prices as far as I am aware.

You fail to acknowledge that Jonski has been a loyal customer of UTV and as far as I know would be quite happy to stay with them if they provided the service he asks them for and which other isps appear to have no difficutly in providing. He has provided loads of data to them to help them tackle the ping thing and yet not alone do UTV fail to provide the service they continue to ignore this issue other than to say they have nothing to report. Because of this failure he will most unlikely renew his contract.

Potential and existing customers should note this attitude from UTV.

UTV pulled a fast one. Most people would expect that any significant savings which a supplier is able to avail of would be passed onto customers. If the wholesale price of milk goes down you dont expect your grocer to require you to commmit yourself to buying milk at his premises for the next year before you can get the new price. I am sure if wholesale prices had goine up UTV would have managed to pass them on very quickly to all of their customers.

And as you cannot access the UTV newsgroup it would appear that yet again its a non clicksilver customer telling us how we should all be feeling about the clicksilver service.

But it is great that you persist in defending UTV as it allows the way UTV behaved when savings were available to be passed on to customers to be kept in public view any potential customers.

So any potential clicksilver customers should be aware that the last time savings were available to be passed on to customers those customers were required to commit for a further 12 months before they could avail of the savings, Otherwise you were left on the old rate - this may suit you and your circumstances and it may not but be aware that this is how UTV behaves.

thehurler

Sorry folks, I'm new to this game so excuse my last entry. I'm afraid the telecoms business is a nasty one and contracts have to be adhered to, that their rationale. If you sign up to pay a certain price why should your terms be changed until the contract expires? You signed up after all. Look at professional footballers, they start at a young age, get crap contracts worth a few hundred quid but have to live with it to see out their term before getting a better deal. ALL telecoms companies pull dirty tricks so there is no use in highlighting one.....none of them are going to do you any favours. You live with what you signed up for.

dub45

Originally posted by thehurler
Sorry folks, I'm new to this game so excuse my last entry. I'm afraid the telecoms business is a nasty one and contracts have to be adhered to, that their rationale. If you sign up to pay a certain price why should your terms be changed until the contract expires? You signed up after all. Look at professional footballers, they start at a young age, get crap contracts worth a few hundred quid but have to live with it to see out their term before getting a better deal. ALL telecoms companies pull dirty tricks so there is no use in highlighting one.....none of them are going to do you any favours. You live with what you signed up for.

I really dont think professional footballers are good examples of people sticking to contracts.

In the particular case we are talking about UTV did not stick to the original contracts for everybody they chose to alter it in certain circumstances.

thehurler

Thanks Dub 45. I dont know the full commercials of what UTV offered. However, my point is this. All Telcos engage in, shall we say, dubious tactics. Eircom have hidden their voice charges for years through minimum call charges yet their is no real clamour on this. UTV are no different and not the worst, I'd imagine. I think its important to bear this in mind.

In a compatitive marketplace where Eircom seem to abuse their position and emasculate alternative providers, can you really blame UTV for trying whatever is necessary to retain their market share? UTV were applaued a few months back for driving the price of broadband down and offering an alternative. Its the likes of UTV that are forcing the likes of Eircom to drive the wholesale and retail price of broadband down. If we want alternatives we have to try and understand the business logic behind retaining market share and a customer base.

dub45

Originally posted by thehurler
Thanks Dub 45. I dont know the full commercials of what UTV offered. However, my point is this. All Telcos engage in, shall we say, dubious tactics. Eircom have hidden their voice charges for years through minimum call charges yet their is no real clamour on this. UTV are no different and not the worst, I'd imagine. I think its important to bear this in mind.

In a compatitive marketplace where Eircom seem to abuse their position and emasculate alternative providers, can you really blame UTV for trying whatever is necessary to retain their market share? UTV were applaued a few months back for driving the price of broadband down and offering an alternative. Its the likes of UTV that are forcing the likes of Eircom to drive the wholesale and retail price of broadband down. If we want alternatives we have to try and understand the business logic behind retaining market share and a customer base.

I am fed up to be honest with people defending UTV simply because they are not Eircom. UTV are a business out to make money out of their customers just like any other business. Of course I can blame UTV for trying whatever is necessary to retain their market share! Thats a very dangerous logic to adopt. If you subsitute Eircom in that sentence would you be so keen to use the argument? If UTV treat their customers fairly provide good reliable service that will go a long way to helping them retain and increase their market share.

In this case we have a customer who would be happy to stay with UTV (and avail of that lower price) but they are not providing the service he and other gamers want. The problem has been there almost since Clicksilver began in spite of constant complaints from gamers.

That customer feels that he is not getting the service he is entitled to and therefore understandably is reluctant to commit for another full 12 months. Other ISP's do not have the ping problem so it is not as if gamers are looking for anything extraordinary from UTV.

So UTV are making extra money out of a customer who would be happy to stay with them if they provided the service he wants - but they seem either unwilling or unable to provide that service.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by dub45
Ryanair dont ask you to commit to future flying with them to avail of new prices.

Could that be because they don't have to?

You fail to acknowledge that Jonski has been a loyal customer of UTV

You fail to acknowledge the realities of the broadband marketplace. You also bandy about the word "loyal" as if it had any meaning - it's not hard to be loyal to someone who's doing you a favour.

and as far as I know would be quite happy to stay with them if they provided the service he asks them for and which other isps appear to have no difficutly in providing.

Bearing in mind, of course, that the other ISPs charge more for that service.

He has provided loads of data to them to help them tackle the ping thing and yet not alone do UTV fail to provide the service they continue to ignore this issue other than to say they have nothing to report.

This is probably my single biggest issue with UTV's detractors: this attitude that it's not that they can't fix the problem, but that they won't. Do you really think that posting 600 lines of traceroutes to utv.support several times a day is all it takes to fix the problem?

Because of this failure he will most unlikely renew his contract.

So why should UTV lose money on him?

Potential and existing customers should note this attitude from UTV.

What makes it an "attitude" other than the fact that you don't like it?

UTV pulled a fast one.

How many times do you think you'll have to repeat this before it becomes true?

Most people would expect that any significant savings which a supplier is able to avail of would be passed onto customers. If the wholesale price of milk goes down you dont expect your grocer to require you to commmit yourself to buying milk at his premises for the next year before you can get the new price.

If UTV ever get into the dairy business, your business acumen will doubtless prove invaluable to them.

I am sure if wholesale prices had goine up UTV would have managed to pass them on very quickly to all of their customers.

You know what you should do: you should set up an ISP. Then you can show us all how to charge a tenner a month less than the competition, while providing a superior quality of service, superhuman customer support and zero-length contracts - all the while making a profit. I'll sign up in the morning, I will.

And as you cannot access the UTV newsgroup it would appear that yet again its a non clicksilver customer telling us how we should all be feeling about the clicksilver service.

I don't recall telling you how to feel about anything. I'm not a Clicksilver customer because I can't get DSL, and never will. I set up a GDS to provide broadband in my rural area, and I'm delighted to report that none of my subscribers have an attitude like yours.

But it is great that you persist in defending UTV as it allows the way UTV behaved when savings were available to be passed on to customers to be kept in public view any potential customers.

I'll type this as slowly as I can: UTV passed on the savings, and then some. The only people who didn't avail of the savings were those who - for whatever reason - weren't prepared to commit to a contract.

So any potential clicksilver customers should be aware that the last time savings were available to be passed on to customers those customers were required to commit for a further 12 months before they could avail of the savings, Otherwise you were left on the old rate - this may suit you and your circumstances and it may not but be aware that this is how UTV behaves.

Remember that they also stood to save e120 over the course of that 12-month contract.

dub45

Here is a very lengthy example (patronising and supercilious in tone as usual in this particular case) of a non Clicksilver customer defending UTV.

Through reductions in the wholesale price of broadband UTV had the option to pass on savings to existing customers. All other broadband providers appear to have passed on those savings straight away to their existing customers - UTV only passed on the savings to customers who commited themselves to a further 12 month contract. That is the reality of what happened. (I dont know what acknowledging the realities of the market place have to do with it).

Any potential customers of UTV should be aware of this.

jonski

Originally posted by oscarBravo
This is probably my single biggest issue with UTV's detractors: this attitude that it's not that they can't fix the problem, but that they won't. Do you really think that posting 600 lines of traceroutes to utv.support several times a day is all it takes to fix the problem? .

Do you really think that burying your head in the sand can fix the problem ? , do you really think that posting 600 lines of traceroute for 12 months is not enough to make them acknowledge there is a problem ? Do you really think that if they can't fix this they should pretend that it doesn't exist ? Do you really think I shouldn't be pissed off ?

I have had enough of people thinking I have a vendetta against UTV , I have spent my 12 month contract with unplayable pings for the majority with hardly no acknowledgement of a problem . They make an effort for a small while and then forget about it .

thehurler

Dub45....You seem to be really irked that UTV will not pass on a saving to customers who wont committ to a new contract. Its part and parcel of the telecoms business world that a telco will re-negotiate a new price with a customer who committs to a new contract. A new rate is only offered when the contract expires. Otherwise whats the point in drawing up the contract in the first place if the buyer thinks that they have the right to chop and change when its suits them. This is exactly what the realities of the marketplace have to do with it. Simple as that as far as I can see.

dub45

Originally posted by thehurler
Dub45....You seem to be really irked that UTV will not pass on a saving to customers who wont committ to a new contract. Its part and parcel of the telecoms business world that a telco will re-negotiate a new price with a customer who committs to a new contract. A new rate is only offered when the contract expires. Otherwise whats the point in drawing up the contract in the first place if the buyer thinks that they have the right to chop and change when its suits them. This is exactly what the realities of the marketplace have to do with it. Simple as that as far as I can see.

Yes I am extemely irked at UTV's behaviour.

Eircom and IOL found it possible to pass on the savings so it is not part and parcel of the telecoms business world for all companies.

I am not discussing 'buyers chopping and changing'. I am pointing out an example of someone who would be happy to stay if UTV provided the same quality of service as other ISP's and that UTV can provide themselves f rom time to time but not consistently.

The realities of the market place allowed Eircom and IOL to pass on the savings to all of their customers. No doubt if wholesale prices had gone up UTV would have managed to pass on the extra charges to all of their customers.