[Article] Placenames plan is 'ridiculous' - tourism chief

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/3505759?view=Eircomnet

Placenames plan is 'ridiculous' - tourism chief
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 1st July, 2004

The Chairman of the North West Tourism Board has described as "absolutely ridiculous" the new Placenames Order (Gaeltacht Districts) 2004.

The draft order published today by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Mr O'Cuiv, means the English version of placenames in Gaeltacht areas will no longer have legal standing.

The order will no longer permit the use of the English version of placenames in the Acts of the Oireachtas, in statutory instruments, on road and street signage or on Ordnance Survey maps.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio this morning, Councillor Sean McEniff (FF), Chairman of North West Tourism, said that in many cases "the Irish names bear no resemblance to the English versions".

He claimed the new order will result in confusion for tourists from across the border as well as England and America.

"People will not know where they are going because, after all ,when they get out their maps they are in English," said Mr McEniff.

However, Mr O'Cuiv today defended the draft order, saying he didn't understand the issues raised by Mr Eniff . "The placenames have been in Irish in Gaeltacht areas since the 1970s when Bobby Molloy made the order," Mr O'Cuiv said.

"The fact was that none of them were official in the Irish language, only in English," he said. "What the new order does is reverse that in Gaeltacht areas, making the Irish form the official one in these areas," Mr O'Cuiv added.

Mr O'Cuiv pointed out that Ordnance Survey maps show both English and Irish versions of placenames.

About 2,119 placenames of villages and towns in the country's Gaeltacht areas are listed in the draft order, which was published this morning .

"The names have been recommended by the Placenames Commission, and concern the places' history, spelling etc . . . " said Mr O'Cuiv.

"Rather than sign the order, we've given a period of consultation for people of the Gaeltacht to make submissions. Most of them will not be contentious," he added.

The draft list of the Gaeltacht placenames is available on the Department website at www.pobail.ie

sunbeam

Just looked at their list of proposed names. Not only has their Irish version of my village name not been in use for well over a century, but the English version of it on the list hasn't been used for decades. I've never seen it on a signpost and can always tell when junkmailers have taken my name off the electoral register as that's the only place where it is still in use. :dunno:

I'm technically in the Gaeltacht, but Irish died out in my village and immediate locality over a century ago due to emigration and seasonal migration to England. As it is I seem to spend half my time redirecting lost tourists due to poor current signposting. God knows what it will be like if they make it Irish only. :rolleyes:

seamus

You can see why they're doing it, but really it defies logic. People really couldn't care what the name of a place is, so long as you can match it up with a place on the map. So many maps, and especially those of tourists, will have placenames all in English, so chances are many of them will turn around when they get lost and just avoid the Gaeltacht.

jank

A name of a place can tell alot about the history/geography about a an area
Saying nobody cares is a stupid statement to make

As regards a map then when you go to france to u expect all placenames to be in english......eh no!

So in future maps those placenames will be in irish which is an important way to preserve our heritage

What its only like 2-5% of the country!?

sunbeam

I've no problem with signage being in both languages. However as nobody actually speaks Irish as their first language in my tiny corner of the Gaeltacht, I'd prefer if signposts continued to include the versions of place names we have used on a daily basis since the early twentieth century.

sceptre

Might be nice, seeing as they're being so, er, proactive if they also take a look at the Gaeltacht boundaries and revise them for the first time since 1956 (hint: the area will get smaller, as will the potential tax breaks and territory controlled by Údarás na Gaeltachta).

If I read the above correctly there will be no English version of the placenames on any signs in the relevant areas. Which makes little sense given that the Irish version is on all signs in the rest of the country where the English version is more prominent. I may be misreading "The order will no longer permit the use of the English version of placenames in the Acts of the Oireachtas, in statutory instruments, on road and street signage or on Ordnance Survey maps" but it sounds like the kind of thing we might have done in the early 40s when we didn't want nasty foreigners to find their way around.

I can't see any reason why both Irish and English versions shouldn't both have legal standing, both be used on maps and signs and both be used by the local posties. Anyone got a good reason why we shouldn't have taken that route?

seamus

Originally posted by jank
A name of a place can tell alot about the history/geography about a an area
Saying nobody cares is a stupid statement to make

Not really. Ever been to Wales? Ever wondered why Llandudno is called Llandudno? No, I didn't think so. I agree that to Irish people, it says a lot about the history, but not to tourists. I think dual naming preserves it much better. For example, where my parents live is called Donard, and the Irish name is Dún Ard. If it was actually called "Dún Ard" then I think the meaning and history in the Irish name is lost, because it just becomes the name. A bit like "Newcastle" - you don't think about why it's called that, that's just its name.

As regards a map then when you go to france to u expect all placenames to be in english......eh no!

Of course not. My point is that a name is just letters on a map. The language is irrelevent. So long as a person can match up the name on the sign to the name on the map, then its language is irrelevant. As you say, in future, maps will have the right placename, but what about now? There's a million motorists, and God knows how many other maps, and quite a lot of them in English only. And it's not easy to match up names. Rinn na Mara for example, I saw that last night, and this morning can't even remember what the English translation is.

What its only like 2-5% of the country!?

It's 2-5% of the country that depends on tourism to survive.

sceptre

Originally posted by seamus
Ever wondered why Llandudno is called Llandudno?

Yes, oddly enough, but given that llan means "church" in Welsh, din means "fort", tre means "village" and coed means "wood", you're now as clued in as you would be here if you knew the meanings of (say) our popular cill, dún, baile and lios I suppose we didn't run with seipéal (which I've probably spelled wrong) all that often.

Seamus makes a good point. I'm not totally convinced that the meaning and history is lost by reverting to the Irish name, though you do lose the final eytmological step - the Phoenix Park wouldn't be such a quirky name if we ran back to the similar sounding Irish original (I particularly like these as they make little sense) but he's definitely right on one thing - most tourists won't give a crap as long as the place name matches the map name. Even if the place is called Baile Lisdownmore (I just made it up).

Off-topic but related, I see some towns/villages in the underarm of nowhere names have suddenly been unilaterally renamed (Charleville has recently become An Ráth rather than Ráth Luirc for example) and I'm wondering if it's the same committee doing this (as this is actually dumping an etymological step, albeit in the case of the town named for the Charles who retained his loaf, again a final one). My girlfriend's from a small place in the darkest part of Cork called Bweeng. Don't worry, you've never heard of it. And you'll probably never pass through it and while it's a nice enough tiny place, you're not missing anything good. It's between nowhere and nowhere (it's on the road from Mallow to Coachford). The small village has always been called "Buinn na Míol" (Buinn may be spelled wrong, my Irish is terrible), which I'm informed means "hill of the hares". Now all the signs to the place suddenly say "Na Boinn", which probably doesn't mean anything interesting.

ambasite

Originally posted by sunbeam
I've no problem with signage being in both languages. However as nobody actually speaks Irish as their first language in my tiny corner of the Gaeltacht, I'd prefer if signposts continued to include the versions of place names we have used on a daily basis since the early twentieth century.

Most Gaeltacht dwellers do not speak Irish daily
02/07/2004 - 08:19:22

A study conducted for Nuacht TG4 has reportedly found that up to 70% of people in Gaeltacht areas no longer speak Irish on a daily basis.

Reports this morning said the study found that the current Gaeltacht area of 90,000 people would shrink to 27,000 if criteria for such status proposed two years ago by Coimisiún na Gaeltachta were applied.

The study is based on an analysis of the census figures for 2002. The highest levels of Irish language use were reportedly found in south Connemara and north-west Donegal.

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
Off-topic but related, I see some towns/villages in the underarm of nowhere names have suddenly been unilaterally renamed (Charleville has recently become An Ráth rather than Ráth Luirc for example) and I'm wondering if it's the same committee doing this (as this is actually dumping an etymological step, albeit in the case of the town named for the Charles who retained his loaf, again a final one).

Ráth Luirc was the official name until about 15 years ago (since the 1920s?) with An Ráth being the Irish version. Common usage interchaged between Ráth Luirc and Charleville, to much confusion. The townfolk had a referendum (4/7 majority needed) to change it and agreed to Charleville (Ráth Luirc).

Victor

I suppose it is one way to kick non-Irish speaking areas out of the Gaeltacht.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/3510126?view=Eircomnet

A town by any other name . . . could be confusing
From:The Irish Independent
Friday, 2nd July, 2004

TOURISTS visiting some of the country's most scenic areas are heading into unknown territory as a result of a government order published yesterday.

That's the view of a leading tourism chief who believes the Draft Placenames Order (Gaeltacht District) 2004 is a blueprint for widespread confusion.

Minister for Rural, Community and Gaeltacht affairs Eamon O Cuiv published the draft order yesterday which gives legal status to only the Irish version of 2,119 placenames in the Gaeltacht. The order, when formerly enacted, will make the English version of the placenames redundant.

But Sean McEniff, Donegal hotelier and chairman of North West Tourism, slammed the measure yesterday, warning it would interfere with tourist numbers, particularly those from overseas visiting Gaeltacht areas.

Said Mr McEniff: "In many instances, the Irish version bears no resemblance to the English version of Gaeltacht placenames. This new order will result in confusion for tourists from across the Border as well as from England and the US. People will not know where they are going because their maps are in English."

Mr O Cuiv defended the draft order. "The placenames have been in Irish in Gaeltacht areas since the 1970s when the then-minister Bobby Malloy made that order," he said.

"The fact is that none of them were official in the Irish language - only in English. What the new order does is reverse that in the Gaeltacht area, making the Irish form the official one in these areas."

The minister has announced a two-month consultation period. Submissions can be made up to the end of August.

Brian McDonald

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor
Ráth Luirc was the official name until about 15 years ago (since the 1920s?) with An Ráth being the Irish version. Common usage interchaged between Ráth Luirc and Charleville, to much confusion. The townfolk had a referendum (4/7 majority needed) to change it and agreed to Charleville (Ráth Luirc).

Ah, thanks for that Victor. Proper referendum of the townfolk then? Good. Democracy works:D

I didn't know that An Ráth had been the official Irish name all along so I'll dump that from my list of whinges. Now I'll have to find out about the other one as none of the locals seem to know (or to be too pushed so it's their business really)

thejollyrodger

this is complete bollócks, tell me how the american tourists get around holland, france, or Detuchland. As long as there is proper sign posts in the country then they will be fine and they can learn a few irish words while they are here !!!!!!!

mackerski

Liam Fay had an article in last Sunday's Sunday Times, where he referred to a new law requiring all road signage, even the temporary stuff, to be in both Irish and English. This struck me as an excellent idea, as the lack of English language signage in many Gaeltacht areas is, frankly, a scourge. Now, you can argue all you like about whether there needs to be an English language form on signs of placenames where the natives only ever use the Irish version. That worries me very little, and the lack of English signs for these places will, at the very worst, annoy the visitors enough not to come - and that's therefore none of my business, the locals should decide.

However, and my school Irish was far better than most, while driving around Connemara with some German visitors, we very nearly missed our turn to Maam Cross (which, correct me by all means, isn't in the Gaeltacht anyway, is it?). Just in time, I noticed the Irish name for Maam Cross, which I'd never seen before and can't recall today. One suspects a shrewd plot to prevent the visitors ever leaving...

More worrying still was all of the signs warning "Aire, páistí ag trasnú". Important enough to erect a sign, but not important enough to tell those drivers that don't already know about that particular school?

It basically comes down to this - there are two languages spoken in this country. One of them is understood by everybody. One by hardly anybody, and it's actually used by fewer still. In spite of this, because of its cultural significance, both languages, it is claimed, should have equal status in law. I'm fine with this. What I don't understand is why it's alright to deny signage in the universally understood language in one area and not alright to do the reverse in another.

Dermot

sceptre

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
this is complete bollócks, tell me how the american tourists get around holland, france, or Detuchland.

They look at their map which has the same name as the sign they're looking at which also happens to be the same name the locals use for the town.

Spot the difference?:)

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by seamus
Not really. Ever been to Wales? Ever wondered why Llandudno is called Llandudno?

Chapelizod - "Chapel Lizard"
sounds obvious - but point is that like a lot of names they just took the Irish pronuncation of the name and matched the nearest sounding English words to it. - meaning totally lost

Far from being a Lizard, Isolde was yer one in Wagners opera, most continental people I've talked to seem to have heard of her ... So guess which would be the best name from a tourist point of view - Both.

So what wil Kells be called on the maps then ???

thejollyrodger

This is IRELAND not some English/American proxy state. They better get used to paddy language or ask the locals.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
This is IRELAND not some English/American proxy state. They better get used to paddy language or ask the locals.

Presumably the locals have to get used to the paddy language too.

thejollyrodger

Presumably the locals have to get used to the paddy language too.

Of course !!

mackerski

This "let's revert to the traditional placename" approach is not without its snags. You see hints of it on the new Luas line, where two stops that I can think of (Cowper and Charlemont) were clearly considered not worth translating, presumably because of a lack of established Irish names. This seems very fair - just as I would be slow to insist on an Anglicised name for a place where everybody speaks Irish. Still, presumably to satisfy the rules on dual language signage, the signs at both of the Luas stops named above dutifully state the station name twice.

Let's leave aside attempted placename theft (Newbridge, Bagenalstown, Kells, even Dunleary if spelling purges count). Apart for this, the best example of name retrofitting I know of is Blanchardstown, Co. Dublin (as we once liked to call it). Not long after the foundation of the state, as the official bodies started looking to resurrect the old and sometimes neglected Irish language placenames, the name "Baile Luindín" came to be recorded for Blanchardstown. This was after quite a bit of research - finding an Irish name for a historically small place in one of the first parts of Ireland to lose the language proved pretty tough. The first historical reference to the village is a Latin one, to "Villa Blanchard", and Blanchard doesn't feel like a traditional Irish name. In any case, they got Baile Luindín out of an old woman who recalled it as the name of one of the coach stops on the way out of Dublin on the road to Navan. So signs were erected and the case closed.

During the sixties, another placename researcher had a fresh look, and discredited the name. He reckoned that the woman was thinking of Baile Bhluindín (Blundellstown, near the Hill of Tara), and went on to suggest that, in the absence of an established Irish name, the closest you could probably come was "Baile Blanchardstown". This was presumably deemed not Irish enough, and the place has been known as Baile Bhlainséir ever since. Whoever Mr. Blanchard was, his soul will no doubt receive much comfort from the posthumous gift of a name as Gaelige. An old cast-iron finger sign pointing to Baile Luindín survived into the 90s near St. Margarets.

This has been a long-winded way of suggesting that places should, by and large, be called what people call them, and not have names invented for them or thrust upon them just because one language is suddenly deemed more desirable than another. This means that sometimes it's reasonable to stick with an English-only name (as in Blanchardstown), other times an Irish-only one (Rosmuck probably offers no real benefit over Ros Muc, but does anybody really care?). I'd be as slow to send the language police out over a well-known name like Dingle (after all, München doesn't mind being Munich or Monaco).

Dermot

Capt'n Midnight

Of course the very last thing to do is ask the natives what they would like to be called.

esp. since anyone living within comuting distance of a big city probably aint' a native

thejollyrodger

there is only a few places that dont seem to have irish names. A couple of sessions on RTE learn how to pronounce irish and were flyin

mackerski

only a few places that dont seem to have irish names.

But how many of those names were retrofitted to satisfy the fashion of the day? If an Irish name that pre-dates the English one is so obviously superior then why should it not work the other way round?

Dermot

pork99

Well done Mr O'Cuiv. Another episode in the history of the restoration of the Gaelic language by compulsion and diktat which has made it the thriving widely spoken language it is today with the entire population of Ireland using it fluently on a daily basis. :rolleyes:

sunbeam

Looks like I may not have to worry about our road signs for too much longer:

http://www.mayonews.ie/current/news.tmpl$showpage?value1=329818874851342

It seems like the potential loss of funding for roads and other infrastructure is the major cause of concern.

I have to admit I'm quite stunned with the news that there's a plan underway in Achill to increase daily usage of the language to 100 percent. Really there's about as much chance of that happening here as it happening in Dublin. I wonder how my parents generation who had it (often literally) beaten into them at school will feel about that.

I have absolutely nothing against the language and have recently even taking to watching TG4 in order to improve my rusty knowledge of it. However it has never been my native language nor that of almost anyone in my immediate locality (for the past 120 years at least) and attempts to impose it as such really get my back up.

jlang

Originally posted by sunbeam
there's a plan underway in Achill to increase daily usage of the language to 100 percent.

The only way I can see that is if they force those who speak English to leave the island regardless of their links to the area, and that's even less likely to happen politically.

jank

Originally posted by mackerski
But how many of those names were retrofitted to satisfy the fashion of the day? If an Irish name that pre-dates the English one is so obviously superior then why should it not work the other way round?

Dermot

yea names like "The Orchard" and"melbourne estate" all have some kind of history behind them:rolleyes:

Remember Irish people are snobs!
If a place has an Irish name attached to it they think poor/under developed/bad area

Just have a look at the property section of any newspaper. Are the names of new developments being named for a valid/geograpgical/toponomical reasons.....I think not (with a few limited exceptions)

Most will be named to sound nice and posh

Oh were so graund now that we dont need Irish names:rolleyes:

mackerski

Oh were so graund now that we dont need Irish names

You're probably right. When the native Irish-speaking builders sat down with the Gaelgóir planners and racked their brains for the sorts of names that would go down best with the Gaels that would be buying the properties, they said: Tá plean agam - ainmneacha Béarla.

Or, just possibly, they figured that most of their customers were English speakers. I only know of one development with "Orchard" in its name, and it's so-called because they flattened an orchard to build it. It's just as easy to come up with a bland, Gaelic-themed placename. Thing is, very few people will realise how boring it is.

Crossley

This is yet another attempt by zealous fanatics to ram a dead language down our throats. It hasn't worked for a 100yrs and it ain't gonna work now. What irritates me most is not so much having to listen to the pious mutterings of people with nothing better to do than complain that they couldn't find a civil servant to speak to them in Irish while they work out a way of evading their tax bill (much more patriotic to speak the language than pay your tax) but rather the cost of all this nonsense to the exchequer. Not to mention the cost to the environment of having to print every official document, application form, utility bill etc, in Irish so that they can sit and gather dust on a shelf!

jank

Did u enjoy that rant!

Seems to me u have an issue with the irish language rather than the propsed placename project

Maybe you got too many beatings as a young one when you couldnt spell the word "liathroid"

awww aint ignorance bliss:rolleyes:

mackerski

"liathroid"

Unless my Irish has deserted me, that's not actually a word.