Fahrenheit 9/11

Villain

Well I watched FAHRENHEIT 9/11 this evening and I was pretty much blown away by it, its a serious eye opener to what has been going on in the US in relation to 9/11 and dealings long before that between the Bush family and Bin Ladens family.

I'm not even going to try and list all the content as I think people would be best served by going and seeing it for themselves.

However I was wondering if anyone here has seen it and what they thought??

I was quite surprised at how it is almost totally centered around Bush, I thought it would have been more about 9/11 and it's lead up etc.

I found some of the info hard to believe, the amount of money that the Saudi's invest in the US is sureal.

So if you have seen it did you think it was just simply some Anti-Bush Propaganda or a well told documentary that gave us an insight into what really happens.

I was going to do a poll but I doubt that many people have managed to see it yet and well I think we have enough polls on politics without me adding to it.

Capt'n Midnight

I have not seen it but juging by what I have heard it's about the changes in the US of A since 9/11 and how 9/11 is used as an excuse for censorship...

Also the title is slightly rememiscent of Farenheit 451 which dealt with censorship too.

Yeah the Saudi's have been dumping money abroad - you'd think that the fundamemtalists were trying to take over or something.. In fact so much so that they'd nearly make more money by selling fuel cheap so their investments grow !

real problem is I don't this would sway people much - Bush has pretty much divided opinions all through.

bunnicans

i havent seen it either but i've seen a few interviews.seems some masterful editing went on in the making of this documentary and i think its important that we take this into account before we all jump on the anti-american wagon.i'm not taking sides in this debate,god knows its a very risky subject,but the documentary is clearly bias.it would be very interesting to see the other side of the story in a documentary.

sceptre

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Also the title is slightly rememiscent of Farenheit 451 which dealt with censorship too.

I really don't want to be a smarmy smarty pants but I suspect that's why the title was chosen. Isn't one of the taglines for Moore's movie something along the lines of "the temperature at which freedom burns"? And Ray Bradbury's been making whiney noises[1].

I haven't seen it either though I'll go to see it. Nothing to do with the "message" of the movie but Moore is due some credit in removing the interview with Nicholas Berg from the final cut (although you could say that had he left it in there would have been a nasty backlash that would have overshadowed the movie)


[1]Don't worry about Ray. There's a Fahrenheit 451 remake coming next year via Frank Darabont so Ray will presumably get paid for that one

Devilman

I haven't seen it but I too have heard that there is some masterful editing in the film.

I have read and seen a lot of Moores work..and I do know that he can sometimes drift onto the side of propaganda and away from fact, so it will be interesting to see if he does that here.

On a side note..it seems this film has ruffled a few feathers in the White House, they seem unsure how to deal with it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3838243.stm

read the closing paragraphs...

clearz

Originally posted by bunnicans
i havent seen it either but i've seen a few interviews.seems some masterful editing went on in the making of this documentary and i think its important that we take this into account before we all jump on the anti-american wagon.i'm not taking sides in this debate,god knows its a very risky subject,but the documentary is clearly bias.it would be very interesting to see the other side of the story in a documentary.

Go and watch the film then come back in here and tell us the other side of the story because I cant think of one. Is there another side to what bush has been at 'I dont think so' This film displays hard facts about bushes government with only a few of Moores points of view thrown in.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Devilman

clearz..the only reason there has been no "other side to the story" is simply because Bush won't "get into a debate himself with that little filmmaker guy".

However this does suggest that he definitely has something to hide...

ChipZilla

It's out here on the 9th of this month, but you can download it if you can't wait that long..

@bunnicans: You haven't seen it so you'd do well to reserve your speculation until you do. How can you say its important to take into account this "masterful editing" if you haven't seen the film? I'm definitely not interested in your views until you've seen it for yourself.

What the hell was Bush doing in that school on the morning of 9/11? He was like a bunny caught in headlights. The secret service had to practically drag him away in the end cos he didn't have a clue what to do.

Why were average americans so gung-ho about invading Iraq? The interview with the mother of the soldier from Moore's home town was a good example. She thought it was a great idea until her son came back in a body bag, at which point she was against the whole thing.

More issues are raised than I have time to write about here, and I sincerely hope it kick starts american voter's brains into action in time for the elections.

Just my 2¢ worth.

clearz

<mod> Whoops, linking to warez. Bit of a no no. </mod>

There is a link on that page to a copy of the film. Moore himself has said that he does not mind people downloading his film as long as it is not for profit. Be adviesed it is not very good quality (Some Guy with a camera in the cinema) but you get for what you pay for. It is not out here yet and im such a Moore fan I could not wait.

Hobbes

Originally posted by clearz
There is a link on that page to a copy of the film. Moore himself has said that he does not mind people

Moore might not mind, but then he doesn't own the rights to it, so copying it is in fact illegal.

Movies out tomorrow as preview.

A lot of it is true, but a fair bit is creative filming.

sovtek

I don't think Moore is the best source for information. He is, however, a good place to start for the uninitiated.
I find predictable that the media in America is trashing the film. They usually start by saying how biased he is and then never really debunk the facts.
Then there's people like Russert, O'Reilly, Limpjaw and Coulter out there.
That being said I haven't seen the movie and I don't know when it comes out in South Africa.
If you want to see some great journalism in regards the movie then go to Moore's website. Also www.dailyhowler.com has some great examples of Washington press corp professionalism regarding the movie as well.

Villain

Well I kinda wish I hadn't started this thread now, I thought there might have been a few people who would have seen it.

Its kinda hard to discuss the the film when people are only going on reviews etc.

I agree do that there was some very noticeable editing, they showed clips of Bush making speechs but cut him off in the middle of the sentence's quite a bit which left you wondering in what context what is it been said.

But having said that they were some interviews that edited or not showed the swing of the Bush administration, especially in relation to saying Saddam wasn't a threat then after 9/11 saying they were 100% certian WMD were in Iraq and he was a serious threat.

The film also shows the scary connections between Bush the Bin Laden family and the people close to Bush who stand to make a lot of money from investments in Afganastan (gas pipe line) and the rebuilding of Iraq along with the weapons industry.

Cork

Originally posted by irish1


I agree do that there was some very noticeable editing, they showed clips of Bush making speechs but cut him off in the middle of the sentence's quite a bit which left you wondering in what context what is it been said.

This seems to be the kernel of my problem with this film. Michael Moore is entitled to his view.

Is it a definiatative view? Debatable,

It is the view of Michael Moore.

cartman

i searched days to get this movie, finally got it 3days ago,
i dislike moore but i think hes great at what he does, hes a f00kin idiot though,

The movie is very good but i expected alot more, i kinda thought i had known all this before , there was no new or hidden dirt on the devil[bush]..

well as long as it keeps him from being reeleceted which it will.

p.s alot of the footage is amazing, how did he get his hands on any of this?? all the footage of bush just sitting there before he goes on air, abotu sept 11. makin his gestures that he was going to do, found it quite funny, but where does moore get these?
does anybody know

Magnolia_Fan

Micheal Moores whole purpose of making the movie was the same purpose everybody makes a movie for, money...alot of the "facts" in the movie are unproven and Moore has admitted being anti-bush and not fair, as on John Stewart this week. He is just tyring to stir controversy so people will go see the movie, he also wants profit off the hoardes of Liberal in the U.S and most Europeans who will flock in thousands to see this movie. The Best analgy I've seen of this movie so far is The majority of people who go to see this movie go in with a bad attitude towards Bush and leave with a bad attitude against Bush.

cartman

you can go on bout how moore is biased and facts are unproven but tbh if youve seen the movie most of his points are VISUAL fact, its all videos of bush and everthing he is on about,

the film is mostly fact proven by himself, of course he made it for a profit but he made this so bush wouldnt get relected and that is gonna happen,

and its not all anti bush people watchin the film, tbh my father is pro bush before watching it and tbh hes near enough anti now after because its there in colour video that bush is an evil **** its not moore sitting infront of the camera talkin....

Hobbes

Originally posted by Krispie
you can go on bout how moore is biased and facts are unproven but tbh if youve seen the movie most of his points are VISUAL fact, its all videos of bush and everthing he is on about,

First up, a lot of the facts have been proven, however in some instances Moore bends them.

One example. He mentions that Bush had a plane ready to take the Bin Laden family out of the US.

Truth: After the first day flights were allowed start up again. However all commercial flights spent a whole day shuffling. So it was day 3 when flights started up again.

However private jets were all working fine. So the point that Bin Laden family were ready to fly out of the US is speculative.

He also tries to tie things together where they are not linked. Saudi money being put into the US for example. He fails to mention that SA told Bush to GFH some months before 9/11 and had started removing business money from then (and still continues to).

Moore is his own worst enemy.

Cork

Originally posted by Hobbes
.

He also tries to tie things together where they are not linked. Saudi money being put into the US for example. He fails to mention that SA told Bush to GFH some months before 9/11 and had started removing business money from then (and still continues to).

Moore is his own worst enemy.

Has Moore come up with any thing new?

Villain

Well the movie is released in cinemas here today, so go along and see yourself.

Oh and make sure and come back and let us know what you think.

Hobbes

I went and saw it.. Feck me there was more there then even I remember.

The first President to be egged into office. The public denouncement of disenfrancised vote by Congress with no sentors helping. He relation calling into Fox to say he won.

The connections and massive amount of cash he has made despite running every company into the ground.

Enron connections too.

He should be impeached and jailed for profiteering. He is not fit to clean a real presidents shoes. Anyones shoes.

If he isn't toast next election then the thing has to be rigged.

Edit: The earlier comment about the plane leaving. The movie points this out to be false, the SA ambassdor with the help of the FBI removed the whole Bin Laden family from the US. They were not even interviewed by the FBI.

por

Originally posted by Hobbes

If he isn't toast next election then the thing has to be rigged.

If he isn't toast next election then it's the Demcrcate fault for not doing their job correctly, surley if there is such a wealth of mud do sling at Bush the Democrats should exploit it. And also make sure their voters get out and vote....

RE*AC*TOR

Saw the movie - i think most people who keep themselves informed will be aware of 95% of the facts in this movie. I would imagine a large proportion of Americans, however, are largely unaware of a lot of the information presented. As a movie - I enjoyed it (as did the audience in UGC - it got a minor round of applause). I didn't think the edting was particularily introducing false impressions. For the most part, the information presented is all on the public record, apart from a few of Moore's own opinions - but these are clearly phrased as questions - not as facts.

On the re-election topic, there is probably 33% of the population who will ALWAYS vote republican, 33% who will always vote democrat. the other 33% are changeable - these should really favour Kerry after the hole Bush has dug himself over the last few years. However, Ralph Nader is mooting running again and he has the potential to take away a lot of votes from Kerry (not so much Bush) - also interesting that Republicans are donaating a lot of money to Nader with this in mind (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/07/09/NADER.TMP)

Tom Dunne

Went to see it last night.

I was fascinated to see Bush "egged into office" (nice way of putting it Hobbes). It was apparantley the only time in the history of the US that a president did not make the walk to be sworn in. Just shows the contempt for Bush began at day 1.

I think it was a lot of anti-Bush propaganda. I did enjoy it, and I really enjoyed Moore taking quotes out of context, but I think it was too one-sided. If Moore had provided a more balanced arguement, perhaps it would sway more people.

One thing that really struck me, and I see it in work all the time (I am Irish, working in the US), is the complete and utter un-questioning of authority. No matter how big a tosser is in charge, subordinates respect that authority figure. Managers in my job are simply not questioned, what they say goes, period. It is the same with Bush. He is the president of the United States of America. You don't question the president of the United States of America, no matter how corrupt he is (even a lowly RTE reporter dare not). Unfortunately, Kerry does not provide a strong enough alternative.

This is why I fear Bush will be back in the White House come November.

jackofalltrades

Just saw the film there. Honestly can't see what all the controversy was about.
Most of the editing that certain people complain about was actually fairly funny and wasn't intended in a serious light.

The film really drives home the reality of the war and the human suffering that is involved. Most noteably when the woman who lost her son in Iraq meets a lady who is protesting about the Iraqis dying and then an American woman comes in and add's her 2 cents, where she moronically blames Al-qaeda for the death of the ladies son.

The only problem I would have with the film is that Moore reinforces the lie about the identity of the alleged hijackers by displaying pictures of men, who have been proven to be alive.

cartman

you know, bush most likely wont get back in, but i think that wont bother him too much, he got what he wanted, did was his father couldnt , got all his cronie friends set up in the oil business, there all makin millions which im sure he is makin more and that it, only reason he wanted to be president in the first place and the ****er did it all in 4year..

i hate that man

the_syco

Before the film;
slightly anti-bush
pro-US
pro-war

After the film;
slightly more anti-bush
pro-US
pro-war

=====

Bush is the cause of the war, the cause of the soldiers having to ask their families to send them kelver, the cause of lack of funding...

As for the CIA... all you fcuks that complain about the warning's going up and down; they were like that before 9/11, and no-one took any notice, as it was about a "vague warning..." and yet when they give you the vague warning, you still complain...:rolleyes:

radiospan

Originally posted by the_syco
As for the CIA... all you fcuks that complain about the warning's going up and down; they were like that before 9/11, and no-one took any notice, as it was about a "vague warning..." and yet when they give you the vague warning, you still complain...:rolleyes: [/B]

I think the "warning system" (seems like everything in America is being dumbed down since 9/11?) was only introduced a few years ago.

jesus_thats_gre

I read recently that during the scene Moores was standing outside the senate askin Senators would they send their kids to Iraq, one of the Senators replied that his son has been in Afganistan for a number of months already. Naturally, this was promptly edited out!

feylya

You have to wonder how much was edited out to make the film appear was it is.

Wrestlemania

Saw this film last night and my idea's have changed being an ex-military person who has seen combat several times, well I relate and join arms with the service men in it.But from the US soldiers (some of them) interviewed they are very immature and unprofessional and a solider who talks about killing or degrades his enemy prisoners well that is unethically as a solider and disgusting as a human being.


My idea's on Bush have changed, he is indeed a muppet a true muppet using nice words....yes i knew the war was down to oil but not as bad as what was portrayed last night in that film and the getting out all the bin ladens from the US after 9/11....
mmmm f*ck this are they right in the head....

I am going to have another look tonight at the film as it was slowing sinking in last night.


As I am usually against anti-war and anti-peace protesters i dont agreed with there somewhat outrageous methods but I now understand there principals.

Bush being replaced mmm i dunno ??? I dont think he will why because there will be to much cheating going on by his side to keep Kerry out...

Last night made me furiously angry as that administartion and more knowledgeable about what really goes on.