Tax - Bloody - TAX

gom

Time and Time again we hear Minister McCreevy ranting about his beautiful tax magic. How he saved Ireland from the despair of the 80s and immigration. We hear Minister McDowell howel on about our liberialised economy and how important it is to suck up to american firms. Bertie comes on and backs it all up and is fairly modest not to mention his work in Finance and the Labour Dept. He leaves the vainity for the EU presidency...

Tax is a non issue. The government neglects to respect the people that made Ireland what it is today. Every person that stayed in Ireland after getting educated in the early 90s. Those that worked hard and played not much. Irish people are what made the Irish Economy so strong. Not a low tax system.

The political implications of ranting on and on about tax has effectivly made it no longer function as a tool of government policy.
No Party that has a hope of being elected can raise tax. If they did it while in power they would fall the next day and return to the opposition benchs the next.

For this reason all the topics revoling arround the Low Corporation tax in this country and the low personal tax and how lovely they are ends here.

FF, FG, Labour, PD all these parties would not be able to lower tax much more due to EU agreement and also the difficulty in funding a country which is already the most underfunded country in the EU per head of capita in terms of investment in Public services.

I'm sick and tired of hearing boardsters who are more than likely a good 10 years older than I (i'm 22) preach on about how special our American loving government is and how we should bow to our masters and be loyal to their agents the FF/PD marriage(husband and wife).

I accept that our low taxes have played an important part in the economic development and growth of Ireland in the last 8 years. But this was just a piece of the puzzle. Low taxes are not an end in themselfs. Being able to attend University for free was also a fundemental. Without which there would be no high-tech firms here today. I'm sure we would have had a celtic tiger but in manufacturing and it would never return as costs increased....

Praise yourself if you are a hard-worker who was in Ireland in the 80s and early 90s.
It is YOU who made the celtic tiger.

Lets please leave the debate about Taxes alone. Some parties will argue for more tax(Green, SF, Socialist Party) but they will not be elected to a position of power. Some parties will argue for less tax(PDs), but people know that any lower and we will all end up in queues for the rest of our lifes due to underinvestment in Human Capital. Some will argue for loopholes(FF) but this is the hypocracy which everyone has just awoken too. And Some will argue for adjustments(FG, Labour) to correct the imbalances of not indexing the tax bands and put an stop to the endless loopholes that have made Punchestown get money for nothing and chicks for free...

I want Boardsters to think about it. Forget History. History is dead. The nation state is about to die too. As the most globalised society we can't start increasing our taxes without suffering the loss of jobs... The main players in the Irish political system know this. They just haven't told you yet...

arcadegame2004

FF, FG, Labour, PD all these parties would not be able to lower tax much more due to EU agreement and also the difficulty in funding a country which is already the most underfunded country in the EU per head of capita in terms of investment in Public services.

Possible true about us not necessarily being let reduce our corporation-tax further. But income-tax is a very different beast. We are allowed to do whatever we want with that.

Lets please leave the debate about Taxes alone. Some parties will argue for more tax(Green, SF, Socialist Party) but they will not be elected to a position of power. Some parties will argue for less tax(PDs), but people know that any lower and we will all end up in queues for the rest of our lifes due to underinvestment in Human Capital.

No I am sorry but I still feel we are paying far too much tax. There is still colossal waste of taxpayer's money, and simply throwing more money at problems like the Health-Service is not always the answer to our problems. The Government-commissioned Brennan and Hanly reports have highlighted the tremendous waste in the Health-Service, especially in terms of duplication of resources, e.g. a number of hospitals very close to one another with the same facilities. Health-Service spending has doubled since 1997. Public-spending needs to be prioritised and used efficiently, which is not happening now. The colossal 12 billion euro public-sector pay bill must be shredded through privatisations where feasible, and that will help provide the basis for further cuts in both direct and indirect-taxes, in my opinion.

Oh, and let me assure you I am not 10 years your senior but rather I am 24. Okay. And I haven't said you must vote for FF-PD. But credit should be afforded where it is due, and I think much of the credit for the good economic times and fall in unemployment is rightfully theirs. But I will probably vote FG next time because it is true that the economy while important, should not be seen as a substitute for corruption and broken promises when weighinh up factors that motivate where we will cast our votes, and hopefully FG will act as a centrist counterbalance to tax-and-spend Labour and the Greens.

silverside

i think Ireland is one of the least taxed countries in the EU. You can point to high taxes on cars,drink,cigarettes, but the main things like income,corporation,property,local government taxes are all low. Even the PD's are not, I think, talking about lowering taxes any further.

I don't know if I would want higher taxes without proper control of the spending though. Much of the higher spending on health has gone with little to show for it. In the UK, there are standards,inspections and competition for hospitals,police,education, you name it. If we had a little bit of that brought in it would do wonders. But Irelands political system means local politicians have too much influence and the PR voting means they have to look after everyone. If Ireland had tony blair and first past the post it might be different.

Privatisation might bring in a little bit of money, but not much. Anything that will fetch a bit of money (like Aer Lingus) will mean giving up a profit stream in the future. Anything that is a black hole for government spending will still need a government guarantee. Look at what happened in UK when they had to renationalise the railways. It might make the economy a bit more competitive but its not a magic bullet.

arcadegame2004

Privatisation might bring in a little bit of money, but not much. Anything that will fetch a bit of money (like Aer Lingus) will mean giving up a profit stream in the future. Anything that is a black hole for government spending will still need a government guarantee. Look at what happened in UK when they had to renationalise the railways. It might make the economy a bit more competitive but its not a magic bullet.

You seem to think that all the profits of a semi-state go straight into the Government's coffers. But as EU-rules forbid state-aid (except in very rare and exceptional circumstances require the EU Commission's approval), I believe you are wrong. The profits of companies like Aer Lingus are not requisitioned by the Exchequer. Rather, they are used by the companies themselves, be it for investment or whatever. The employees have to be paid out of something you know.

The UK did NOT renationalise the railways by the way. They revoked Railtrack's license to manage the track, but all the rail-transport companies retain their operating-licenses. It would cost billions for the UK to renationalise ownership of the railways.

The sale of Eircom (the Government sold its remaining 50.1% share in the company) in 1999 brought in 5 billion euro for the Irish taxpayer. The value of the company as a whole was 10 billion at the time of privatisation (source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_company_file/388410.stm). The privatisation of our bloated public-sector would bring in many more billions to the taxpayer. Aer Lingus is valued at around 500 million. There are several other public-sector companies and no doubt their sale would bring in a massive boon for the taxpyer that would vastly exceed any profits these companies will make in the public-sector.

Sparks

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The sale of Eircom (the Government sold its remaining 50.1% share in the company) in 1999 brought in 5 billion euro for the Irish taxpayer. The value of the company as a whole was 10 billion at the time of privatisation

5 billion out, after nearly ten times that in from public funds to set up and maintain the backbone network and exchanges, which are now the legal monopoly of Eircom.
Not ideal.

Similarly, the idea of privatising healthcare is a disaster - observe the antics of HMOs in the US, where economy of care takes priority over quality of care.

Reform is definitely needed - but privatisation, as shown time and again in the UK since Thatcher's regieme (it really does feel like the right word to describe her time in office), does not work in every case. Some things really are better off being done by the state - like infrastructure, which should be owned by the state, and healthcare and similar services which must always be done to a set level of quality regardless of profitability in order to provide a standard quality of life for the citizens who live in that state.

gom

As Sparks says: Privitisation of Infrastructure is a bad idea.

When the government privitised Eircom they should have retained the local exchanges and the 'last mile' of phone lines. This would avoid everyone STILL paying line rental to Eircom(the offical dominent firm according to the EC).

The government did learn from this however it has not remedied it. IT has set up teh National Grid to manage the power transmittion system which there is no money in running. The government should at leasat renationalise the local exchanges from Eircom and do like they are doing with the national grid...


As for lower taxes Arcade. While I totally agree with you that large sums are being wasted lowering the taxes is not the answer. Proper administration of our hard payed tax bucks is the way. Looking back on how FF/PDs have invested I'm very disappointed. They scondered our boom and the surpluses were so large in the late 90s that it was underinvestment in the economy in my eyes.

If anything we need someone to invest the money we pay in taxes more responsibly and I don't think FF kangeroo unchecked investment in Punchestown and FF election spenting sprees is the way forward.

I do think that we are paying too many levies. These are not taxes but charges which are not due. I would favour a new tax to fund local government expenditure and in-turn reduce the amount that central government allocates to the councils. This would encourage competition between County Councils and lead to balanced growth I believe...

Arcade I agree that low taxes are important but what I am arguing is that tax is a dead argument as far as change. FF/PDs rant on how if they are not in power people will be forced to pay 1980s - levels of tax. This is non sense...
You said you will vote FG in the next election. Do you believe that FG will raise the tax burden. I don't think you do otherwise why would you vote for them.

When I use the word tax I am refering to Corporation Tx and Income Tax.