Privatise State Companies now!

mike2084

Now I think it is finally time to sell off all these state companies and maybe get some stability into this country! Now once again the ESB workers are holding this country to ransom again! Once again this country is going to grind to a halt from next Monday when militant workers stop producing power. In fact this happens in no other modern and advanced country? Why, because they have choice. If one shuts down they can go to the other company. Here we are at the behest of the whims of one badly run electricity company. How are we to continue to continue to be an information economy and attract inward investment if we cannot depend on our power supply?This strike amounts to as much as a terrorist attack on this country which would stop everything. The Goverment must open up the electricity market NOW!

arcadegame2004

Spot on.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Michael Walsh
Now I think it is finally time to sell off all these state companies and maybe get some stability into this country! Now once again the ESB workers are holding this country to ransom again! Once again this country is going to grind to a halt from next Monday when militant workers stop producing power. In fact this happens in no other and attract inward investment if we cannot depend on our power supply?This strike amounts to as much as a terrorist attack on this country which would stop everything. The Goverment must open up the electricity market NOW!

"holding this country to ransom" you are being highly senstationalist if not a scaremonger.Its easy for one to read the sunday business post and say "yes privatisation is good for the country" but in reality its a different story. I work for Aer Rianta and my company is being sold off to a private invester for no good reason.Aer rianta was a state owned company which made profits for the exhcequer now its going to become a private company making money to line the pockets of individuals.The minister for transport is too blinded by neo liberal ideology to consider the practical implications of the breakup.For example how will shannon survive without the €10 million in subsidies,there could be disasterous knock on effects for industry in the area.Privatisation of bus and rail was a disaster in the UK fairs were hiked,concessions for certain groups were abolished, and non profitable routes were abolished in order to upsize profits.The only privatisation that has proved beneficial was the telecom eireann breakup.Privatisation should be examined carefully on a case by case basis, if we privatise the esb we will loose payments to the exchequer.If the government are worried about "militant unions" they should meet their wage demands.I think its best that Road,Rail and Bus transport,Airport management,waste disposal,waterworks and electricity should be kept under state ownership.

Meh

Originally posted by AngelofFire
For example how will shannon survive without the €10 million in subsidies,there could be disasterous knock on effects for industry in the area.

If Shannon Airport is so important to companies in the area, then they should have no problems coming up with the €10 million out of their own profits rather than taking it out of the taxpayer's pocket.

Victor

Originally posted by Michael Walsh
Now I think it is finally time to sell off all these state companies and maybe get some stability into this country!

I'm sorry but could you identify the pattern of days lost through industrial action over the lat 5-20 years?

Originally posted by Michael Walsh
Now once again the ESB workers are holding this country to ransom again!

Sorry, to be ptronising, but I understand the last ESB strike was 10-15 years ago.

Originally posted by Michael Walsh
Now once again this country is going to grind to a halt from next Monday when militant workers stop producing power.

Accounts clerks don't run power stations.

Originally posted by Michael Walsh
This strike amounts to as much as a terrorist attack on this country which would stop everything.

I think, sir, you are grossly insulting the victims of terrorism. I think you should apologise.

Originally posted by Michael Walsh
The Goverment must open up the electricity market NOW!

Guess what, it is open.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Meh
If Shannon Airport is so important to companies in the area, then they should have no problems coming up with the €10 million out of their own profits rather than taking it out of the taxpayer's pocket.

Thats a major disincentive for companies to locate there if they have to pay to maintain the local airport.Its not the way forward.Also Aer Rianta is a public company so money taken from the taxpayers pocket is used to make profits for the exchequer makes a lot more sense than having it make profits for an elite group.

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor
Sorry, to be ptronising, but I understand the last ESB strike was 10-15 years ago

1991 IIRC. I was roughly half the age I am now. Sure and it was only yesterday.

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
1991 IIRC. I was roughly half the age I am now. Sure and it was only yesterday.

I remember all them power cuts in the 1970s. I remember the excuse du jour if you didn't have your homework done was "there was a power cut, miss". This didn't cut any ice in May/June.

spongebob

Originally posted by Michael Walsh
Now I think it is finally time to sell off all these state companies

Any relation to Willie (asset snatcher) Walsh ......are ya

M

BuffyBot

I guess Michael Walsh was offended by the monopoly the other thread had on this issue and decided to open the subject up to some competition

arcadegame2004

AngelofFire, Aer Rianta is NOT being privatised. It is being broken up into 3 airport authorities. Just correcting you there. That division annoys the unions though because by dividing them, it makes it harder for them to hold us to ransom so I can understand their irritation. Nonetheless, the interests of the 75% of workers who are not unionised must come first.

One of the most ironic aspects of trade-union policy was their insistence on this thing called "benchmarking". This is supposed to be a mechanism whereby workers in the public-sector are "compensated" for higher salaries of their private-sector counterparts, e.g. teachers, doctors.

By demanding this, (and it was granted under the pay-deals including Sustaining Progress), they are contradicting their much repeated claims of disaster for their members in the event of their companies being privatised, because they are effectively admitting they might get paid higher salaries in the private-sector.

AngelofFire, may I also add that while it is true that in the private-sector, the aim of the board of directors is to make a profit, it is also in the interests of the workers that it does so. Would you rather a company you worked for made a loss, so that then you might be sacked?

The profit-motive is often demonised by the Irish Left. Indeed I have a confession to make. Before I studied economics for my Leaving-Cert, I actually would have agreed with an awful lot of the negative propaganda about privatisation. I used to believe that state central control and central planning were the best ways to run industry. Thank gawd I took up that subject because it well and truly opened my eyes. I suggest some others take a course in economics and learn about why the Soviet experiement failed (crippling cost of the bureaucracy needed for central-planning and control of industry), and observe that the richest economy in the world today - the United States - is also by far the world's richest country. Learn the lessons from that!

Profit and the consumer-interest are not mortal enemies. Quite the contrary. If the privatised company is providing good quality service at a price the consumer is willing to pay, then it will thrive. But if it provides appaling service at extortionate prices, then not only will it fail, but it deserves to. How far more democratic that is, than a semi-state company with a monopoly, who can up prices till the cows come home without losing consumers, since consumers have no choice but to use their services. Kind of like the medieval lord of the manor who forced his serfs to use the lord's mill and then pay their lord for the 'privelege'. I thought they were supposed to be serving us....

gom

Originally posted by AngelofFire
"The only privatisation that has proved beneficial was the telecom eireann breakup."

Hardly?
The state sold the lines and exchanges and last mile infrastructure with Eircom. This is like selling(as oppose to building a new one) the roads to a private company. Its just not workable.
Today we are faced with one choose of operater if we want to get a phone. Eircom. You must rent your telephone line from Eircom and pay them a monthly line rental fee. Not only that. If you want to get ADSL(broadband) the onyl option is Eircom ADSL as they own the exchanges and have refused to Unbundle the Local Loop to other Telecoms providers and ISPs.
The government is not very cleaver at privitising judging from the Eircom sell off.

Re-Nationalise Local Exchanges and put the Telecoms lines and Local Exchanges in the hands of the County Councils and City Councils....

Meh

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Thats a major disincentive for companies to locate there if they have to pay to maintain the local airport.

You think companies in Dublin don't have to pay to travel through Dublin airport? If Shannon airport can't make a viable business out of the Midwest region, with all the companies and industry there (Dell, Analog, Pfizer...), then there's something deeply wrong with the running of the company.

Also Aer Rianta is a public company so money taken from the taxpayers pocket is used to make profits for the exchequer makes a lot more sense than having it make profits for an elite group.

Wait, so now Shannon is making a profit? I thought you said it needed a €10 million subsidy...

mycroft

The profit-motive is often demonised by the Irish Left. Indeed I have a confession to make. Before I studied economics for my Leaving-Cert, I actually would have agreed with an awful lot of the negative propaganda about privatisation.

Wow a leaving cert quailification in economics, we'll all have to bow out to your vast and superior qualification.....

I suggest some others take a course in economics and learn about why the Soviet experiement failed

You'll find that most of the people who are in favour of state control of certain industries and services aren't also in favour of y'know labour camps and show trials.

I'll see your soviet style central bureaucracy, and raise you 80s conservative UK, where industry was privatised left right and center.

Results

The British rail system is in pieces.

Hosipitals are in shambles.

and observe that the richest economy in the world today - the United States - is also by far the world's richest country. Learn the lessons from that!

It's also has one of the greatest divides between rich and poor. Poor people cannot afford basic health care.

Might I sugest you look at some of the scandinaivan countries which has nationalized industries and has far more equality between soco economic classes. This isn't a "who has the most cash wins" race, but rather a "which economy is fairer to it's citizens"

When a business is privatised it stops being a provider for the people and starts being concerned for it's shareholders.

If Dublin bus was privatised the new owners would examine the routes and may decide that certain routes where "unprofitable" and stop running them. Despite the fact these routes may provide a lifeline for disabled or elderly people.

When the British rail system was privatised routes were done away with mainteance was done on a lowest bid wins factor, and necessary track repair was done away with, no one needs to be told what a mess it's currently in.

Again hosipitals in Britain cleaning duties were farmed out to private companies, many older nurses are now claiming that this is leading to a massive increase in cross infections, something that was unheard of in the days when cleaning was done by in house staff.

Certain industries must not be run on a for profit basis. Certain industries are too important to left to people whose primary concern is generating money, Certain industries are needed to provide certain functions to the people and citizens of this country and that should be their primary objective.

arcadegame2004

Might I sugest you look at some of the scandinaivan countries which has nationalized industries and has far more equality between soco economic classes. This isn't a "who has the most cash wins" race, but rather a "which economy is fairer to it's citizens"

Ah yes, the Scandinavian countries. Like Denmark, with a top rate of income tax of 74%. The same is pretty much the case in Sweden and Norway. There is NO way the Irish electorate would re-elect a government that dared bring in such high taxes. Are you proposing we raise taxes through the roof to their levels?

I'll see your soviet style central bureaucracy, and raise you 80s conservative UK, where industry was privatised left right and center.

The British rail system is in pieces.

Hosipitals are in shambles.

Very selective of you to exclude from your analysis the stunning success of British Airways and BT after they were privatised. The privatisation of British Energy and the National Grid and the introduction of competition led to great falls in rates-per-unit of electricity. Telephone call-charges have fallen. And you ignore the success of British Petroleum also.

I reiterate again that I have NEVER called from the privatisation of the railways. I have stated that there are reasons why this is an exception to the rule and a natural monopoly. I agree that the privatisation of the railways in the UK was a huge error of judgement. But that does NOT mean that privatisation is ALWAYS wrong.

Are you opposed to ALL privatisations in principle? Are there any privatisations that have occurred in this country that you approve of?

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Very selective of you to exclude from your analysis the stunning success of British Airways

Errr what stunning sucess? Unlike the Govt Owned Aer lingus BA are struggling to make a profit and to recover from a disaster that happened almost 3 years ago. They also have one of the highest sick leave rates in the uk at over 16 days per employee a year...a damning indictment of how they run their privatised company.

On the same subject....that shining beacon of private industry that is there American Airline industry...mostly making huge losses and 3 years later still failing to tackle the issues that 9/11 raised.

Also those that hold up America as a good example of how great america is economically should observe how much of their industry is effectively given state subsidies through its vast govt/military spending. And the fact that they are the most energy ineffecient and polluting country on the planet, arguably because of a runaway consumer culture. (Although China is going for the second accolade too by all accounts)

Privatisation is not a bad thing per se but it should be done when it makes good economic and social sense - not because it suits some dumbarse politicians political agenda. (hello PD's) Somethings are better left state owned (eg Aer Rianta - ever heard of Economies of scale Mr Brennan????) whereas some are better privatised. (Eircom arguably, although Comreg needs to regulate them harder)

AngelofFire

Arcadegame2004. Aer Rianta wasn`t making a loss it is a proftable company making money for the irish exchequer.The only reason why PD wannabe seamus brennan is going ahead with the breakup is to serve the vested interest of making big business rich on the back of our public companies.Since dublin airport will no longer recieve state subsidies it will need to hike airport charges in order to function as a profitable company.

mike2084

Originally posted by Victor
Accounts clerks don't run power stations.

True, but the power station workers won't pass accounts clerks pickets, as the clerks will picket power stations.

Originally posted by Victor
I think, sir, you are grossly insulting the victims of terrorism. I think you should apologise.

OK, A little over the top, but the country will stop.

Originally posted by Muck
Any relation to Willie (asset snatcher) Walsh ......are ya

Haven't a clue who is the guy you're talking about. For the record, there are no politicians of any kind in my family.

arcadegame2004

AngelofFire, I repeat again that Aer Rianta is being broken up, not privatised. You don't seem to realise that.

Since dublin airport will no longer recieve state subsidies it will need to hike airport charges in order to function as a profitable company.

Alternatively, it could cut costs like Aer Lingus have done in order to function profitably. Or it could attract more airlines through lowering landing-charges.

mycroft

Ah yes, the Scandinavian countries. Like Denmark, with a top rate of income tax of 74%. The same is pretty much the case in Sweden and Norway. There is NO way the Irish electorate would re-elect a government that dared bring in such high taxes. Are you proposing we raise taxes through the roof to their levels?

These are however countries with the best balance of GNP per head of population, the most equitial and fair countries in the world.

BTW Denmark topped a pole recently as a the country whose entire population is "most satisfied" with their standard of living.

Very selective of you to exclude from your analysis the stunning success of British Airways and BT after they were privatised. The privatisation of British Energy and the National Grid and the introduction of competition led to great falls in rates-per-unit of electricity. Telephone call-charges have fallen.

Hmmm shambolic hosiptial, people dying on trollels, railway accidents due to poor maintenace causing the deaths of hundreds vs.....cheap calls.

Tough choice.

And you ignore the success of British Petroleum also.

Yes yes I do. I don't think a company working in such a morally bankcrupt, polluting destroying the environment, should be held up as a success.

Are you opposed to ALL privatisations in principle?

Weirdly after so many people I know getting burnt on Eircom stocks, I'd be dubious of the motivation of any of this administration reasons behind privatisation, hell if Seamus Brennan told me it was sunny out, I'd grab an umbrella.

I reiterate again that I have NEVER called from the privatisation of the railways.

Really where? Cause all I see from you on this thread is "running business for profit is the only way that makes sense" attitude. Which is essentially a Thacterite, Kenysian, model of economies, and we're still paying the price for that school of thought.

Are you opposed to ALL privatisations in principle? Are there any privatisations that have occurred in this country that you approve of?

Again I never said that. But things like rural electrification would not have happened if the ESB was a profit driven business. Ditto my two eldery bachelor uncles in donegal wouldn't have a phone because the expense of running and maintaining their line compared to how frequently they make calls just wouldn't make sense for a private firm to bother.

Look there have been daft Irish subsiduaries and PLCs (Irish steel anyone?) which I'd be hard pressed to justify, it's a money hole and unnecessary. But transport, education, health, power, and other vital industries are too important to be left in the hands of profit driven industry. Furthermore nothing in your original post said anything other than running businesses for profit is the only way that makes sense.

Sleepy

Originally posted by AngelofFire
If the government are worried about "militant unions" they should meet their wage demands.

ROFL. Yes, the best way to run state owned countries is to pay their staff more than private sector workers who have proven time and again to be more productive whilst they already have less job security, holidays etc.

Get Real.

bobbyjoe

Striking is a last resort after following procedures not something people do at the drop of a hat. Most employees generally don't want to strike unless its the last resort.

Regarding selling state companies:
The Government should protect basic services like water, health, power, transport, and waste disposal. These are essential services that are needed to run the country and isn't running the country the Governments job.

If state companies are all privatised then private companies would have the country by the balls (metaphorically speaking) and start squeezing till all the euro's come out.(Sorry about the horrible image).

Look up what happened in California with Enron. Electricity supplies were withheld to create false shortages and push up prices. Public companies aren't the most efficient well run places but wouldn't it be better not to sell off the family jewels and try and keep them for everyone in the state.

Sleepy

Well, if not sell them, at least run them like proper businesses. No jobs for life, no cushy "jobs for the boys", same holidays as the private sector get etc. etc. etc.

Problem is that to do this is practically impossible due to the lazy cretins that make up the public sector, and the power of their unions given their monopolistic markets.

seamus

Ireland is a small country. In small countries, it's not all black-and-white as regards privatisation. Some sectors cannot survive unless monopolised (too many small companies not making enough revenue to stay afloat). And monopolies can only be run by the State.

FWIW, the ESB is an example of a world-class power company. We have a modern, extremely stable power grid. The ESBi manages power in many other countries. I can't see any reason whatsoever why it should be removed from the state. They're doing a great job. The prices are reasonable.

What the workers are asking for isn't reasonable, but strikes are no reason to demand privatisation. Many private companies also have to contend with strike action. I'd agree with Sleepy on the "run it like a proper company" point. No-one, save Gardai, Teachers and Doctors (and similar others) should enter a job and expect to be there for life.

DadaKopf

Interesting how electricity is becoming a hot issue. These days everyone's talking about 'security'. National security, economic security, human security - energy security.

Since 9/11 nearly every policy circle has been saturated with paranoiac concerns about terrorist attacks and the interconnections between economc security and energy security.

Interesting how, in a time of crisis, a deregulated electricity grid/infrastructure would likely find itself struggling to coordinate a response to keep things up and running. In that case, so we're led to believe, not only would we lose revenues during the time of that crisis, but trust in our market would put off investors and damage our economic security long-term.

Maybe nobody believes the security threat - I don't - but paradoxically, we're being scaremongered into privatizing utilities to, ostensibly, make our economy more competitive (i.e. play by the rules so we can join the big guys' club) but we are, by consequence, making ourselves more vulnerable across the board.

Zombrex

One word against privatisation - Eircom ... that was a disaster!

If they ever privatise ESB (hopefully not for a good while) they better not privatise the whole grid ... never privatise your infrastructure, not your roads, your rail, your telephone lines, your power lines ... it always is a massive mess

gom

Originally posted by Wicknight
One word against privatisation - Eircom ... that was a disaster!

If they ever privatise ESB (hopefully not for a good while) they better not privatise the whole grid ... never privatise your infrastructure, not your roads, your rail, your telephone lines, your power lines ... it always is a massive mess

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP


You hit the nail on the head Wicknight. Fortunitly the government learned just a little from that. It has the National Power Grid in place which I hope will be administered by a central authority and the various County Councils

As for the infrastructure still belonging to Eircom. Why in the name of god hasn't Dermot Ahern nationalised the Local Loop?

DadaKopf

Because it's illegal to renationalize.

Sleepy

The issue with ESB is that they're looking for massive raises when they're already massively overpaid for a relatively cushy number. This isn't let happen in private enterprise. Lower wage bills and higher staff productivity leads to higher profit.

Hang on. Is there anything stopping the ESB (or any government run "company") from declaring a pay freeze indefinitely? When the unions throw a fit and strike, replace the workers with those prepared to do a proper days work for reasonable pay and throw the other **** out on their arses?

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Sleepy
Is there anything stopping the ESB (or any government run "company") from declaring a pay freeze indefinitely?

Something called the national wage agreement perchance??? You know Sustaining Progress, PPF etc.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Secret_Squirrel
Something called the national wage agreement perchance??? You know Sustaining Progress, PPF etc.

Something the ESB workers seem not to have heard of.