Arsenal's lack of new blood

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by smemon
arsenal were humiliated and were bottom of a poor group after 4games, they picked themselves up but were lucky to even have a chance of qualifying. utd didnt choke on the same level, they didnt lose to arch rivals when the pressure was on and were unlucky conceding a last minute goal, also scholes had a perfectly legit goal disallowed which could have put us through.

So what if Arsenal were bottom after 4 games they still qualified. Im not totally sure but did they not actually top the group in the end? How could they be humiliated and still qualify? Plus they were in a group with Spartak Moscow and Dinamo Kiev (again not 100% sure) who always do well in the group stages because of the weather at that time of year over there. Not to mention Inter Milan.

United didnt choke on the same level, explain. Both teams were knocked out by a last minute goal, Arsenal were knocked out in the quarters which United didnt make. United were knocked out by an unfancied team, where as Arsenal were knocked out by one of the favourites. Before the games people were saying United would walk through but everyone knew Arsenal would have a tough game. If anyone choked it was United.

PHB

United totally ****ed up at that level, but it wasn't a choke.

Man Utd were **** last season, everyone knows it, they had nothing to choke on. They lost the game the same way they lost the league, they had no hunger, they got ahead and defended, which is the type of football Man utd never used to play.

Arsenal were amazing last season, everyone knows it, they choked at the big stage.
They lost the game not because of no hunger, they lost the game because they didn't preform at the highest level, like they should have, thats why they choked.

Its simple really.

Man utd **** last season, nothing to choke on, expected
Arsenal amazing last season, choked, unexpected by some

Jivin Turkey

They both "choked". They were both beaten at home by a last minute goal. Only Arsenal were beaten by a great move. United blew from a free kick. Everyone thought Porto were going to score from that, even before United were actually out you thought they were going to lose, that is "choking".

smemon

8 quarter finals in a row previous, of course utd were expected to win, such is the level and standard and previous achievements suggest.

at least we went out to the champions, unlike arsenal who went out to rivals that you can beat no problem in the league twice but cant handle when the heat is turned up on the big stage.

arsenal havnt improved their squad since then and they cant expect to conquer europe with the same side year in year out. they'll be expected to win the league, fa cup and get to at least the semi's of europe this year. chances of doing that are slim but i dont think they believe they can.

arsenal ooze confidence/arragonce in the little pond with the little fishes but when thrown into the sea with the big fishes they sink to the bottom.

PHB

You don't seem to get it.

Man Utd were **** last season, nobody really expected them to win the CL after christmas, THEY WERE ****!

Arsenal were ****ing unreal in the premiership, and then choked in the CL.

Man Utd didn't choke, THEY HAD NOTHING TO CHOKE ON!

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by smemon
8 quarter finals in a row previous, of course utd were expected to win, such is the level and standard and previous achievements suggest.

at least we went out to the champions, unlike arsenal who went out to rivals that you can beat no problem in the league twice but cant handle when the heat is turned up on the big stage.

arsenal havnt improved their squad since then and they cant expect to conquer europe with the same side year in year out. they'll be expected to win the league, fa cup and get to at least the semi's of europe this year. chances of doing that are slim but i dont think they believe they can.

arsenal ooze confidence/arragonce in the little pond with the little fishes but when thrown into the sea with the big fishes they sink to the bottom.

8 quarter finals in a row, when is the last time they progressed beyond that stage? 6 years ago? Leeds and Chelsea have since done better.

Besides we arent talking about history. You are basing your opinions that United will do better than Arsenal next year on Arsenals alleged "choking" in the CL last year. United were worse. So what if they went out to the champions, does that give you comfort? I suppose we can say Partizan Belgrade also did better than Arsenal or Chelsea, because they went out to the champions.

Arsenal have made a couple of small signings, but will make more. Its only July. If you think United will turn their fortunes around by signing Alan Smith, who has scored less goals in the last 2 seasons than Emile Heskey did last year alone, Liam Miller, who at 23 is still to fully break into the mighty Ireland team who have been without Roy Keane for 2 years, and Gabriel Heinze, an unknown quantity but hardly going to win the league single handedly, then Im delighted for you.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by PHB
You don't seem to get it.

Man Utd were **** last season, nobody really expected them to win the CL after christmas, THEY WERE ****!

Arsenal were ****ing unreal in the premiership, and then choked in the CL.

Man Utd didn't choke, THEY HAD NOTHING TO CHOKE ON!

No you dont seem to get it. If it makes you happy to believe that Arsenal choked and United didnt, great! But in reality they both ****ed up.

gandalf

Hmmm why does a thread about Arsenal desend into a load of bull****e between United and Arsenal fans get on topic or prepare to be banned !!!

smemon

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
You are basing your opinions that United will do better than Arsenal next year on Arsenals alleged "choking" in the CL last year.

im basing my opinions on that, coupled with their failure to sign anyone significant apart from van persie.

you cant possibly improve if you stand still in football, change is constantly needed. the reason i started this thread is because wenger has for 2 seasons now brought in only a handful of players.

he's like o'neill at celtic with limited finances but still putting together a quality side. fans at celtic get frustrated at the lack of signings, they know they cant compete in europe with the same side every year. if this continues at arsenal and they underperform, dont be surprised to see unrest in arsenal fans.

jesus_thats_gre

Yeah but Arsenal are not in need of any new first team players... They team they have is pretty much perfect except for two positions, i.e. Gilberto and Lauren. Wenger is actively trying to replace these two but will only do so when he finds the right player for the long term. His attempt to sign Gerard recently is an example of this and so is the rumours about Trabelsi. Arsenal are also very very different to Celtic in that they actually have quality players throughout the team and they are competing with Europe's best already. What is a dismay to celtic supporters is that they have a great team in Scotland that is is otherwise mediocre in Europe and cannot compete on a REGULAR BASIS with the better team in Europe.

Finally, Wenger recently bought Reyes who has not had a big part to play last season. This will change this season and hopefully he will play his socks off.

smemon

yes, they dont NEED any 1st team players but its all about depth, changing things in matches with different types of players etc..

look, the temptation is there for wenger to say, i have the best team in the world, i dont need anybody, i wont waste money on buying players that are no better than my current 1st 11.

but he's actually doing that, i cant be good for the squad long-term.

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by smemon
yes, they dont NEED any 1st team players but its all about depth, changing things in matches with different types of players etc..

look, the temptation is there for wenger to say, i have the best team in the world, i dont need anybody, i wont waste money on buying players that are no better than my current 1st 11.

but he's actually doing that, i cant be good for the squad long-term.

But he is not doing that... He is buying up young players that are good enough now who offer the potential to be first spuad player in 2 or 3 years time. In the mean time, these players will also being used from the bench to chance things around. They are an unknown quantity to the opposition so can actually change the match.

Kolo Toure, Aliadiere and Clichy are perfect examples of this last season and before. Toure has since established himself and Campells partner in defence.

United buying ronaldo and Bellion and Liverpool buying Le Tallec and Pongolle is the exact same thing TBH.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by smemon
im basing my opinions on that, coupled with their failure to sign anyone significant apart from van persie.

you cant possibly improve if you stand still in football, change is constantly needed. the reason i started this thread is because wenger has for 2 seasons now brought in only a handful of players.

Euro 2004 is only over a week. The season is still over a month away. There is rarely transfer activity during major summer tournaments. Arsenal WILL sign more players, you are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Keowhn, Kanu and Wiltord are gone and that will free up huge amounts regarding wages. Even if Wenger has only brought a hanful of players in the last 2 years the team isnt doing too bad is it? I would trust his judgement ahead of your blinkered view. Ever hear of the old saying QUALITY not QUANTITY.

smemon

Originally posted by Jivin Turkey
Ever hear of the old saying QUALITY not QUANTITY.

yeah i accept your point but the bubble will burst once the quality runs out and you've nothing to fall back on. yes arsenal have a wealth of youth players but not too many have been even given the chance in the match day squad.

im not so sure arsenal will sign more players this summer, if they do it will be foreign unheard ofs. cygan wants out, so maybe trabelsi will be a replacement for him or keown. thats the only major signing i can see.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by smemon
yeah i accept your point but the bubble will burst once the quality runs out and you've nothing to fall back on. yes arsenal have a wealth of youth players but not too many have been even given the chance in the match day squad.

im not so sure arsenal will sign more players this summer, if they do it will be foreign unheard ofs. cygan wants out, so maybe trabelsi will be a replacement for him or keown. thats the only major signing i can see.

With Wengers record for bringing in young talent Id say the bubble wont be bursting anytime soon.

And if what you say regarding Cygan is true I would definately imagine that he would bring in another centre back, as Keown is also gone.

But your claims that Arsenal are in trouble because of their lack of new blood are way off, especially since the season is still over a month away.

Big Ears

Originally posted by gandalf
Hmmm why does a thread about Arsenal desend into a load of bull****e between United and Arsenal fans get on topic or prepare to be banned !!!

it was started by Smemmon , thats where it was gonna descend from the moment the post thread button was clicked .

Dr Bolouswki

I think Ferguson bought Smith to play off Van Horse, which gives him the option of Scholes dropping back into midfield proper... Smith will be bit part, but I don't think Saha will be fighting for the place with Smith, more hoping that ferguson will choose two strikers instead of one...

I think Smemon has a point in that Arsenal definitely do lack depth, but to write them off is ludicrous... ANY sort of long term injury to anyone of Arsenals starting 11 does seem to leave them in a bit of a hole... i mean, if Toure or Campbell get injured who steps in? For one or two games you can see Cygan or possibly Senderos doing Ok, but for say 2 months? The cover is simply not there...

If last season is anything to go by, Utd have a lot of work to do to reintoduce the hunger for success. Last season they had a lot of new squad players, the ferdinand ban etc to contend with, the fallout from Beckhams transfer... - it's a hard situation for any club to come through unscathed - but hopefully they will still be as bad this season!

I think Muorhino's credentials speak for themselves - winning any European competition is no mean feat, let alone two in a row.

I think all three have a good chance, and rember the sleeping giant that is liverpool - wouldn't write any of them off, but sadly I think it will be United or Chelsea.

C'mon Man City!

kida

IF Arsenal had Cambell and Henry injured for a month and Viera a 3 match suspnsion that would leave them very thin on the ground. Also 2 of the back 4 were injured together would be a big problem. Good first 14 but after that could struggle.

vorbis

surely though kids, 14 or 15 players is about all that you can have to make up a first team. Any more and some players will be sitting out a far few matches meaning that they won't do too well when they are called into the team. I think having a cohesive first team for 25 matches and struggling for about 10 matches is better than having to chop and change a team all season.

kida

with luck thats all you need but with a string of injuries and suspensions it wouldn't be enough.

leeroybrown

I don't think Wenger can really splash out in the market. I'm sure if a transfer target becomes available at the right price he'll spend the money at his disposal but I don't think he sees much point in spending to warm the bench in case there are more injuries.

Think about it. How much would Arsenal need to spend to buy a player who could challange for a first team position? He could spend £15m on one player without displacing a member of the starting line up, and thats if the new player plays well.

What is it Wenger quotes as his desired attributes in a player: "Power, Pace, Skill, Youth". He's probably the most astute manager in the Premiership when it comes to transfer dealings and tactical issues so I doubt he'll lose sight of the full picture.

vorbis

yeah kida, but theres been a fair few matches where top teams drop points due to rotating squad members. I wonder if it IS possible to have 20 players all at the standard of first teamers. Look at Chelsea, they had great cover for players last season yet the area of their game that was most impressive (defence) was the area least changed.

smemon

Originally posted by leeroybrown
I don't think Wenger can really splash out in the market. I'm sure if a transfer target becomes available at the right price he'll spend the money at his disposal but I don't think he sees much point in spending to warm the bench in case there are more injuries.

Think about it. How much would Arsenal need to spend to buy a player who could challange for a first team position? He could spend £15m on one player without displacing a member of the starting line up, and thats if the new player plays well.

thats exactly what im saying, he thinks theres no point in buying players that cant displace the current 11 but thats were he's wrong. you have that attitude and in a few years time he'll be left with a few denis bergkamps and panic buying to try and fill gaps.

he must add a few players each year, its like topping up on the old petrol. its much easier and cheaper just to top up by €20 every week or so rather than wait until empty and have to fork out €60.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by smemon
thats exactly what im saying, he thinks theres no point in buying players that cant displace the current 11 but thats were he's wrong. you have that attitude and in a few years time he'll be left with a few denis bergkamps and panic buying to try and fill gaps.

he must add a few players each year, its like topping up on the old petrol. its much easier and cheaper just to top up by €20 every week or so rather than wait until empty and have to fork out €60.

He has added a few each year though! And there is still over a month before the start of the season. 3 of the highest earners are off the wage bill. Do you not think there will be at least 1 more quality player added to the squad?

smemon

trabelsi is the only one i can see, im not even sure how things are going there, newcastle want him too.

but apart from that no, ive not heard any rumours or info about arsenal approaching anyone. (realistic rumours, not davids, kluivert etc...)

anti niemi another possible target but really i cant see that happening, unless lehmann goes. why are people so sure wenger will sign someone this summer?

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by smemon
why are people so sure wenger will sign someone this summer?

Your pretty much gauranteed a club will buy at least 1 player over the summer...

PHB

I think Arsenal will be looking for someone to partner Viera, or even to chalange him.

I think thats goan be the big signing that Arsenal are gona do

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by smemon
trabelsi is the only one i can see, im not even sure how things are going there, newcastle want him too.

but apart from that no, ive not heard any rumours or info about arsenal approaching anyone. (realistic rumours, not davids, kluivert etc...)

When do you ever hear rumours about Arsenals transfer dealings? Oh yeah never. They have signed Van Persie, not sure how good he is but will provide the extra cover in attack. I cant see Trabelsi going to Newcastle over Arsenal, he is also definately leaving Ajax as far as I know.

People think Arsenal will sign someone because they dont let their bias cloud their heads. They have already signed players. Do you really think that Arsene Wenger doesnt know that he got **** all suspensions and injuries last year? And that he is probably short of cover at the back? And that an extra midfielder never hurt anyone? And that with Wiltord and Kanu gone options up front might need something extra?

mr_angry

To be honest, we don't need anyone else up front. Henry, Berkgamp, Reyes, Aliadiere...

In midfield we have Van Persie, Pires, Viera, Edu, Parlour, Gilberto, Ljungberg, and Pennant back after a year of Premiership experience.

In defence we've got Lauren, Toure, Campbell, Cygan (unfortunately), Sendros, Cole, and Clichy.

Lads, face it - we aren't stuck for players. If you want to go ahead and make wild predictions about Arsenal finishing outside the top 3, go right ahead. And, as someone suggested last season - Smemon, if you ever open up a bookies, let us know, and we'll be straight round. It'd certainly be a popular place...

Just as a parting afterthought... does anyone know if the Champions League qualifiers are seeded? I think it'd be amusing to see United meet Real Madrid. I'm pretty sure they are seeded anyway - oh well. United seem to struggle against backwater Hungarian opposition everytime they get to this stage anyway...

Big Ears

Yes its seeded alright .

oh and on that bit about Smemmon , would ya give us 20/1 on Arsenal to win the title .

or maybe 3/1 that they'll end up in the top half of the table .

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by mr_angry
And, as someone suggested last season - Smemon, if you ever open up a bookies, let us know, and we'll be straight round. It'd certainly be a popular place...

We should have a competition to name it too.... I can see if now in pink (should be red fron united) neon lights...

"Smemon's house of impartiality"

smemon

yes lads, once again my sides are splitting with laughter!

the same players, the same manager, the same tactics will become predictable, do you not think? you look at madrid, they are falling and have not replaced their superstars whom most are now over 30, zidane, figo, carlos...

i know ive talked about arsenal choking but madrid really took that title last year. van persie, reyes.....aliaidiare etc aren't tried or tested really, reyes showed flashes of magic but hasnt proved his worth for me anyway, van persie virtually unheard of although i believe he's a massive talent but still could flop.

clichy, aliadiare, reyes, ... havn't grabbed positions and made them their own the way the stars they play alongside once did. thats what i'd be worried about. none have displaced or outshone pires, ljunberg, henry, vieira.

now maybe thats just down to the quality of those stars or maybe its down to weaker players.

i dont like comparing utd to arsenal directly because i know this is an arsenal thread but for example.... o'shea, ronaldo, howard, saha came into the side and are now amongst utds best 11.

perhaps its due to a weak utd 11 anyway you might say but then again utd have won leagues, cups with these weak players. i know people aren't in favour of mass buying but has it worked for utd? the answer is yes. djemba, kleberson, forlan... have not made impressions as hoped and they were all brought around the same time as howard, ronaldo, o'shea etc...

for utd, about 3 or 4 of 7 or 8 have made it in their 1st season or so. the arsenal signings havnt done the same.

Jivin Turkey

Originally posted by smemon
van persie, reyes.....aliaidiare etc aren't tried or tested really, reyes showed flashes of magic but hasnt proved his worth for me anyway, van persie virtually unheard of although i believe he's a massive talent but still could flop.

And who have their challengers signed.....

Paulo Ferreria, Peter Cech, Mateja Kezman? I wouldnt exactly call them all "tried and tested", good players yes, but still have alot to do to be world class.

Alan Smith, Liam Miller, Gabriel Heinze. Tried and tested? Not a hope.

Originally posted by smemon
clichy, aliadiare, reyes, ... havn't grabbed positions and made them their own the way the stars they play alongside once did. thats what i'd be worried about. none have displaced or outshone pires, ljunberg, henry, vieira.

The players you are expecting them to replace are all in the prime of their careers, including Pires, he is playing the best football of his career. They are also some of the best in the world in their positions. Plus Reyes will come in for Bergkamp in the long term I would guess, and Clichy will push Ashley Cole hard.

Originally posted by smemon
i dont like comparing utd to arsenal directly because i know this is an arsenal thread but for example.... o'shea, ronaldo, howard, saha came into the side and are now amongst utds best 11.

Notice the word amongst, it is the exact same at Arsenal. Reyes, Clichy and Aliadiere are amongst Arsenals best XI. If United had a fully fit and on form squad, only Howard would be a definate starter. OGS would more than hold his own against Ronaldo or Saha.

Originally posted by smemon
for utd, about 3 or 4 of 7 or 8 have made it in their 1st season or so. the arsenal signings havnt done the same.

As said above, only Howard is a definate starter for a fully fit United squad, the name Jens Lehmann springs to mind.

So it seems to me, that Arsenal have a lot more strength in depth than you are giving them credit for. Plus pre season is not yet over.

Pepe LeFrits

Originally posted by smemon
clichy, aliadiare, reyes, ... havn't grabbed positions and made them their own the way the stars they play alongside once did. thats what i'd be worried about. none have displaced or outshone pires, ljunberg, henry, vieira.

lol class! with the exception of ljungberg, you'd be hard pressed to find any players in the world who have outshone pires, henry and vieira in their respective positions over the last season or two.

Arsenal's team isn't standing still. Last season Lehmann and Toure emerged as first team regulars. Before that, Gilberto. Next season, Reyes looks the next likely emergence while the right hand side occupied by Lauren and Ljungberg could be under threat should Pennant do well, or Trabelsi sign. In the space of the three seasons, thats almost half the team changed.

smemon

but gilberto, lehmann, toure aren't of the same calibre as the players their replacing. yet anyway, i mean they need vieira, henry etc around them to make them look good.

when henry or vieira are out the side looks pretty average, on paper and on the pitch. those players wont win championships on their own, its the guys like vieira, henry etc that will.

for me chelsea and manu have both improved while arsenal have remained the same. that leaves all 3 neck and neck with utd and chelsea more hungrier because the new guys havn't won anything.

chelsea are the major threat this year, murinho is a workaholic and knows what he's doing. can people not see chelsea now have a much better setup than arsenal or manu?

im more concerned about them than arsenal, id imagine arsenal should be the same.

Big Ears

Originally posted by smemon
but gilberto, lehmann, toure aren't of the same calibre as the players their replacing. yet anyway, i mean they need vieira, henry etc around them to make them look good.

when henry or vieira are out the side looks pretty average, on paper and on the pitch. those players wont win championships on their own, its the guys like vieira, henry etc that will.

your saying Toure hasnt been better than Keown ?

dont be too concerned about Arsenal they'll be just fine .
unless by concerned u mean concerned they will finish 1st .

talla

Smemon you are ignoring everyones points and making ridiculous statements. Take off those rose tinted glasses, i'm one of the most loyal Utd supporters around but I haven't read so much bull**** in one place in a long time. I'll leave this thread open for a short while to see if things improve, if not thread will be closed.

GuanYin

In fairness smemon you're just waffling now. Its been a long time since I rememver any of Wengers buys coming straight into the team and setting the world alight.

Pires, Lundberg, Henry, Gilberto, Edu and Lauren all took a season to settle and get used to the premiership style, and also, I'd guess, Wengers training regeme and style of play. The same can be said of just about every player he's broght in.

As for Arsenals quality coming through? Toure was just about the best Centre Half in the premiership last season, coming out of nowhee to make it into nearly everyones premiership select.

Cole, who in fairness I HATE and rated as a defender in the Ian Hatre mold, has turned into an exception player on his current form. Clichy stunned just about everyone last season, filling in seemlessly for Cole...an established international.

Wenger has been shrewed. Van Persie and Reyes will allow cover for three players (Bergkamp, Pires and Lundberg) and I believe they'll come to be of similar quality. The right back will allow cover for Lauren meaning that Toure can concentrate on being a centre half. Aliedaire looks to have the makings of a fine player too.

So its back to cover and squad strength. In Viera, Gilberto and Edu they have three excellent midfielders for two positions. Parlour holds his own when asked to cover too. Alot of their players are very versatile (Lauren, Toure) and if there was a crisis, they could probably step in (Toure was a right winger and a right back so far)

So where is there lack of strength. They have easily the best midfield in the premiership, their defence has been the best of the top teams. They've strengthened intelligently and brought the good young players through. To my mind, they need a good young centre half and another young out and out striker to be a CL challenging team but I think the are definitely moving in the right direction.

smemon

Originally posted by talla
Take off those rose tinted glasses

now where have i heard that before? the jokes are becoming too old here. no change, after a while they becoming boring, lose their humour and write themselves into the past.

new jokes, thats what we need. the ones we have will become old and boring. see, no replacements talla, run out of jokes? now isnt that ironic.

talla

Originally posted by smemon
now where have i heard that before? the jokes are becoming too old here. no change, after a while they becoming boring, lose their humour and write themselves into the past.

new jokes, thats what we need. the ones we have will become old and boring. see, no replacements talla, run out of jokes? now isnt that ironic.

Eh i wasn't joking, and more pointless bull**** ignoring everyones rebuttals. Thread closed.