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Grammatically suspect headline in Irish Times

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  • 09-07-2004 2:20am
    #1
    simu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭


    In the Irish Times of 8th July, as the headline of an article about child abuse by monks:

    O Brothers, where art thou

    Should that not be "where are ye"? The headline above sounds very wrong to me.


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    #2
    D-Generate
    Registered Users Posts: 2,945 ✭✭✭D-Generate


    Or heres a wild suggestion! They might perchance be playing on the title of the film "O Brother, Where Art Thou?"


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    #3
    simu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    I *know* that - but if you put the noun in the plural form, you have to change the verb as well.


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    #4
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,995 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Since when is "ye" grammatically correct English? "O Brothers, where art thee" might be the correct phrase if you want to stick to "ye olde English", otherwise "O Brothers, where are you".


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    #5
    silverside
    Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭silverside


    actually if you want to be picky about it, I believe the middle english would be
    'Where aren ye?'

    ye or you both used to be accepted forms for second person plural.


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    #6
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Unless 'Brothers' is used as a contraction for "The establishment of Christian Brothers' schools"...


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    #7
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    "Ye" is archaic English when referring to second person plural. There's nothing grammatically incorrect with archaic English (and in certain parts of Ireland ye mightn't be considered archaic at all).

    I think pickarooney's right though, the writer's referring to the Brothers as an organisation. Still a lousy headline though.


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    #8
    simu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    Yeah, but headline writers seem to think that all headlines should be puns - it's annoying.


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    #9
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,083 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    simu wrote:
    Yeah, but headline writers seem to think that all headlines should be puns - it's annoying.

    In a widespread context, I hardly think the IT's subs can be blamed for that – I’ve just looked through today’s paper, as well as Wednesday’s paper, and the puns are mainly found in less serious sections.

    The vast majority of headlines are informative of the articles’ content, so as far as headlines are concerned - job done.


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    #10
    Pugwash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 245 ✭✭Pugwash


    The IT should be praised for it's excellent punnage! ;)

    like today's caption on a picture of wayne rooney:

    "Wayne Rooney: Holy houses of ill repute! Boy Wonder had relations with cat woman"


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    #11
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    Stark wrote:
    Since when is "ye" grammatically correct English?
    Since before Chaucer.
    Stark wrote:
    "O Brothers, where art thee" might be the correct phrase if you want to stick to "ye olde English", otherwise "O Brothers, where are you".
    No, "thee" is "thou" in the objective case, compare with "me and "I". The correct word would have been either "ye" or "you".

    Ye, thou and thee (and for that matter thy and thine) are still found used without affectation in parts of North England, Yorkshire in particular, though mostly by older people and dying out with them.

    BTW. Can anyone remember what that phrase is from, before it was the title of a movie back to when it hadn't even been used as the title of a Simpson's episode. It's bugging me that I can't recall the source.


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    #12
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Talliesin wrote:
    BTW. Can anyone remember what that phrase is from, before it was the title of a movie back to when it hadn't even been used as the title of a Simpson's episode. It's bugging me that I can't recall the source.
    "O Brother Where Art Thou"?

    Comes from Sullivan's Travels (movie made around 1940 directed by Preston Sturges & starring peekaboo girl Veronica Lake and other people who weren't Veronica Lake). It's the name of the movie Sullivan wants to make about the poor. It's a fantastic movie and I don't know anyone else who's seen it.

    Memory jogged?


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    #13
    Shoolaboola
    Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭Shoolaboola


    eh, no "where are ye" is a common irish skanger saying, twasnt used back when the quotes "where art thou" where.


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    #14
    Shoolaboola
    Closed Accounts Posts: 97 ✭✭Shoolaboola


    I'm bored


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    #15
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    Chaucer and King James were both skangers then.


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    #16
    Rredwell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭Rredwell


    Pugwash wrote:
    The IT should be praised for it's excellent punnage!

    Its for the possessive, it's for the contraction (it is or it has). ;-)


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    #17
    elvenscout742
    Closed Accounts Posts: 206 ✭✭elvenscout742


    Talliesin wrote:
    Ye, thou and thee (and for that matter thy and thine) are still found used without affectation in parts of North England, Yorkshire in particular, though mostly by older people and dying out with them.

    Not to mention by various writers and the like to add an archaic flavour to things. But they only work when used properly. It seems people in this country (particularly, unfortunately, the writers) don't know how to use them :( . Oh, well...


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