Should Blair Go or be made to go?

redspider

What are your thoughts on Tony Blair as PM of UK.

With the fiasco that was the Iraq invasion, the lack of WMD found, the lack of links with terrorists (more links now), the falseness of any so-called intelligence by the US and the UK, and the dismal failure of the Labour party in the European and UK Local Elections, etc ....

1. Should Tony Blair put his hand-up and say "I got it wrong, I resign" ?

2. Should the Labour Party call for and elect a new leader ?

3. Will Tony and the Labour party hold out until the next general election and will the British public vote him out then ?

4. Will his length of office depend on Bush's success or not in the US election? eg: if Bush stays, Blair is likely to hold on too. ?


I am waiting for the day for Tony to go. I hope its a case of when, and of course he is battling a rearguard action and will fight to the "death". Due to the election system in the UK, many backbench Labour MP's owe their jobs to Tony and there is no clear cut person to take over the job with the same level of possible widespread popular support that Tony originally had.

I think if he does hold on within the Labour party, as he is likely to, it will be up to the British public to vote him out. They may vote less for Labour but with a FPTP electoral system, he may hold on to power with a much reduced majority. The Lib Dems do not have a credible leader imo to swing votes their way and the Conservatives are still recovering slowly.

What are your thoughts and opinions?

vorbis

i think he should stay. his biggest mistake imo was making too bid a deal out of the wmd issue originally. The general election will decide what happens.

flogen

there are links with Iraq and terrorism? I know saddam met with Al Quaida, but that means jack-shít in reality.

anyway, Blair is likely to hold on and win the next election, but not by half as much as before. That is unless something major happens soon. I think Bush losing will help him out, he wont have to keep his promise anymore, he can begin to distance his policy from American, or forge a better and more reasonable relationship with Kerry.
Next week will be tough for him, with the Butler report coming out, with the likelihood of him being targetted. Howard is now saying Blair/Brown are bad for government, as they let their differences get in the way, and Blair's evidence at the hutton enquiry is now coming into question. All of these things will shake him up, but I'd be shocked if he resigned. Saying that, he will have to get ready to fight if these attacks keep up... and he still has the EU constitution to face...

flogen

cleareyed

Should Blair Go or be made to go?

If you believe in interfering in the internal affairs of other countries...oh, but that's why people want him to go. Confusing.
(It's a matter for the Labour Party and then the British voters.)

redspider

Originally posted by cleareyed
If you believe in interfering in the internal affairs of other countries...oh, but that's why people want him to go. Confusing.
(It's a matter for the Labour Party and then the British voters.)

Hmmm, it looks like you dont understand!

I'm not asking whether the Irish Government and its people should ask Blair to Go, or whether they should invade the UK, hunt Tony down with a 25m euro bounty, etc.

I'm asking about your opinion. And Yes, we are entitled to have opinions on what people should do within their countries, especially so as countries interact with each other on multiple levels within a global framework.

The UK is not in a parallel Universe, although I feel Tony Blair's vision and understanding is currently very blighted by his own place in history and he seems to be living partially in his own dimensions. This "hand of history" seems to be running his philisophy and policy.

Surely you have an opinion on them?

Is the consensus that he should go, but he wants to hold on and will hold on. The question is, what was this hoo-ha about him resigning last week? Blair may not be so teflon as we all imagine. And isn't it the case that dictators are teflon-like? Is Tony now a quasi dictator in the UK, due to his control of the cabinet, the Labour party, and the government and policy?

I'd rather like him to stay. I don't agree with his decisions in regards to the coalition & Iraq, but he (and his party) have helped reshape the UK into a vibrant economy. And he is Englands only real chance of accepting entrance into the EU. Definetly hope he stays, and if he doesn't, I'd like him to take over Berties Job.

redspider

I seem surprised that there is so little interest on this forum about Blair, who after all was the key driving force in the UK to get them to go to war, and as the UK support was the key driving force to get the US to go to war., I would think that it was an important aspect.

Although it was said at the time that the US would have gone anyway, they probably would but there would have been much more internal pressure in the US to leave quickly given that they were on their own. The UK driven by Tony Blair in particular was a major part of why this war happened when it did and why there are 13,000 deaths.

I think that the further survival of Blair is much more relevant for Ireland than the Willie O'Dea/SF issue, tbh. I realise that its hard to care about Iraq at this late stage, but like all wrongs, we should not let time be an excuse for our inaction. If we in Ireland and the people of the UK think that the war was wrong, then they should take out some action against Tony Blair.

In terms of Blair having good points as well, Yes, that is true. But we need to think of this in a greater picture of things. And prime ministers and governments that can do bad and good at the same time points to a more endemic problem in so-called free and democratic systems, and that is the lack of real democracy, what I call the democractic deficit. How can one vote per person every 5 years inform a representative on all the issues? Its impossible.

Thats why there are protest sand thats why we should all be looking to investigate and establishing a new system of politics, one that is more representative of the people and does not favour power funnelling into one person as it does in the UK!
Current systems in so-called western democracies are in fact centuries old and need to be changed to reflect the information and edcuated society.

Batbat

I feel sorry for Blair, he seems like a smart guy, so I does not make sense why he would risk his career helping that monster Bush, against huge public opposition. He has not got anything out of it, and has just made the UK (quite rightly) a target

Villain

Well he has made some good efforts in respect of the peace process, he could make a lot more do, but I'd like to see who else would step in and what there opinion of Northern peace process is before he was to walk.

Scottish

When people wonder what it is that Bush and Blair have in common and why on earth Blair supports him, I often think that Blair's religious belief is overlooked.

The one thing they both share is a blind unshakeable faith in God (TB is on the record about this, although is nowhere near as blatant about it as GWB). They have a moral certainty about it, that allows them (it requires them) to ignore or dismiss the opinions of those who do not believe. Sound familiar?

They both have this good/evil thing going on. God and the state have never been so close together, when we really need them to be clearly seperated.

Mr.Bojangles

1. Should Tony Blair put his hand-up and say "I got it wrong, I resign" ?

He should put his hand-up and say "I got it wrong" but I would prefer to have him in power than Michael Howard.

2. Should the Labour Party call for and elect a new leader ?

Yes.

3. Will Tony and the Labour party hold out until the next general election and will the British public vote him out then ?

Labour will win, I have little doubt about that, but whether it's whether it'll be Tony or Gordon in charge at the time which is hard to say.

4. Will his length of office depend on Bush's success or not in the US election? eg: if Bush stays, Blair is likely to hold on too. ?

No, I think both electorate are very different from each other and so I think the US elections will have little effect on the British one.

beer enigma

I don't honestly think that there's a viable alternative to the Labour Govt. at the moment, although I DO think that Blair will step down before the next election. Whether Brown will take the seat is another issue - the party seem fairly split on Brown as a successor.

In reply to the specific questions - I'm not sure how 'possible' it would be for Balir to hold up his hand and say I got it wrong. That would publicly undermine the credibility of the government and as any industry leader will tell you, sometimes you can say too much. I think he'll hold firm now that he's efectively been 'cleared'.

Should they call for & elect a new leader - as above, i think this will happen sooner rather than later. Blair is a family man & I think he's shortly gonna put his family first & save the party the job.

I think Labout will be voted in in the next election - it'll take a full term equivalent for Howard to get his guys together. Probably the strongest offereing since the Thatcher days (and I'm not a Thatcherite ! - I think her government was incredibly strong, but very damaging). I would see this as the last labour term to be honest, but a huge amoutn has been accomplished, especially in the North. I honestly dont think this would have been achieved under a Tory Govt., but I hope in four years time the work will continue.

As for the Bush scenario - i dont think Balir or any incoming leader will make the same mistake again.......

Orion

Originally posted by redspider
especially so as countries interact with each other on multiple levels within a global framework.

are you by any chance Dilbert's boss?

Batbat

read the papers today and it seems people dont like Blair much, no surprise there, however the thing is people like Howard even less, Torys are a non party, roll on Lib dem, unfortunately its not likely that Libs will get into power.

PBC_1966

Speaking as a Brit, I'd like to see him out as soon as possible. The Iraq/War-On-Terror issue may be in the minds of many, but I think most people in this country are looking at things closer to home.

When he came to power, Blair promised all the usual things: Improvements in education, a better National Health Service, a crackdown on crime and making city streets safer, and a relaxing of the red=tape which is strangling business in this country. I don't know anyone who thinks that he's actually improved things in any of these areas.

As for his promises regarding taxation, just ask anyone who pays council tax (the current equivalent of the old "rates," or property taxes). In some areas this tax has doubled since he came to power.

And he is Englands only real chance of accepting entrance into the EU

We're already in the EU, unfortunately. Do you mean his insistence on joining the Euro currency? Again, the majority of normal people you speak to here are quite happy to stick with Sterling and simply do not want to join the Euro.

As for democracy, Blair shows his true colors when public opinion comes down squarely against his aims. Just look at the Gibraltar fiasco where the governor called a referendum and over 98% of Gibraltar's population voted for remaining entirely British. But Blair states that's totally irrelevant and say that plans for "shared sovereignty" with Spain will continue.

AngelofFire

When i lived in England i voted for Labour,I probably wouldnt if i lived there now,Particularily after the way he has handled the war in Iraq,he has displayed himself as nothing more than george Bush`s lap dog.I had upmost respect for Blair at the start, i thought he would restore the good old Labour governments of the 1950s.

redspider

Originally posted by Macros42
are you by any chance Dilbert's boss?

Yes, the pointy-haired guy. ;-)
Dilbert is a laugh alright.

ok, I may have over-used some jargon language there and it could of course be said in a different way.

The feeling I am getting from the forum is that most people think and in the UK think that what Blair did over Iraq was wrong, and that he has failings on other matters, but that if he decides to stay on, he will get Labour back in.

I think that if Labour changed their leadership, Labour would win the next election, because the opposition just have not got their act together. Howard is getting the Tories back on the right track but they have a long way to go. The Lib Dems are ok policy wise but no-one in their right minds would think that Kennedy is a potential leader of the country. There is unlikely to be a Tory/Lib Dem coalition so people will still vote Labour, despite deficiencies. The question is whether they will still go ahead with that vote if Blair is still the leader. I think that many have not made up their minds yet.


I agree with the Christian influence on Tony. He is adamant to do things that he believes is right and in fact puts people's lives at risk for his perceived greater good. In other countries they call this dictatorship and megalomania. I dont think he is as much as a family man in reality as he would like us to believe, I am sure he puts them second. I do think that he feels this "hand of history" upon him and everything that he does is influencing the world, etc. He has unfortunately I think let power get the better of his judgement.

The problem for Labour is that they do not have a strong candidate ready in the background, and Blair has surrounded himself with weaker individuals that are not likely to win an election based on perceived Leadership, etc.

If you ever watch any of the Commons debates, you will see that Tony does not answer the questions put to him, which is why the media and even MTV interviews(!) will play an important part of the next election. The UK electorate did not get the opportunity to vote on whether to go to war with Iraq or not so the next election will be another acid test and the ill-feeling has not been expended with the Local and EI elections. (is that too pointy-haired?)

I do think that the US result will affect the UK result and vice versa. For example, if Blair was voted out, even the floating US voters would think, "hey, Bush did the same thing to us, lets get him out". If Bush loses the US election, there will be similar thoughts going through the UK voters heads.

Time will tell what happens.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by AngelofFire
i thought he would restore the good old Labour governments of the 1970s.

Oh, you mean when there was 1% economic growth, 20% per year inflation, unemployment doubled, and the UK had the third lowest GDP (per capita) in western europe?

Ahh, those were the good old days, sure. Who wouldn't want to restore that?

:rolleyes:

AngelofFire

sorry meant to say the post war era when they nationalised a lot of industries and introduced free secondary education.Forgive me it was 4 o clock in the morning when i typed that and i had just got in from the club