69% Tax? No Thanks!

Sparks

69% tax is pretty comparable to scandanavian countries at the moment, and given their quality of life, it wouldn't bother me all that much.

However, they don't have the EU zone's highest indirect taxes, they don't have the EU zone's highest cost of living, they don't have the house price problem we do, and they have a lot of other advantages.

Still, though, were SF to get to the position where they could dictate taxation levels like that, my problem wouldn't be so much the tax level, as the fact that we'd be being governed by a party with ties to a standing private terrorist army and politicians with some serious criminal records for things like possession of explosives, possession of illegal firearms, gun-running, and so on...

mike65

The highest top rate of income tax is in Sweden at 56%.

Mike.

bonkey

Originally posted by mike65
The highest top rate of income tax is in Sweden at 56%.

Yes. But the 69% figure being bandied about here is a combination of income tax and Social Insurance.

Whats the PRSI in Sweden?

jc

sceptre

Originally posted by bonkey
Whats the PRSI in Sweden?

Swedish social security charges are almost always paid completely by the employer but there's a general pension contribution to be met by the employee. No idea of the rates.

edit: quick google

Originally posted by bonkey
Whats the PRSI in Sweden?

jc

I'd be kind of thinking that a more pertinent question would be whats the spend per head on health in Sweden versus Ireland...
Theres a lot of things to be got right effeciency wise in the Irish health system before we start raising taxes to the work incentive killing and emmigration fueling levels of the 1980's to throw more money at it...

Sand

Excellent news today - SF are so far to the left that they make Chinese Communist Party look like anarcho capitalists. Their economic polices are insane, literally reversing every good thing that was done to make Ireland attractive for much needed foreign investment, and to persuade qualified Irish people to stay in Ireland rather than emigrate and to reduce the incentives for people to hide their gains abroad rather than declare them in Ireland.

This will effectively destroy any chance of them becoming significant factor in an irish government, assuming Irish people in general are halfway sane and/or have been paying attention during the last decade. I was listening to a Shinner on the Newstalk 106 this morning talking about nationalising the banks. I dont think its President of Ireland that Gerry adams is after, more like Commissar.

Comparisons to the Scandinavian model might hold true if Ireland suddenly discovered North Sea oil of its coast. Ireland doesnt have a host of natural resources. Were not conveniently positioned close to the hub of europe, our workforce is great but not unique and were having troubles getting enough people into science fields, our infrastructure is not as developed as most of europe. The rules of economics do actually apply to us.

AngelofFire

A 69% tax rate in fairness is an awful lot. But i do think we should raise the higher rate of taxation by 2-3 percentage points and lower stealth charges and relieve some of the tax burden from the PAYE sector and cut back on concessions given to race course owners etc.That will help to create more equity between socio economic classes.Ok in scandanavia they do have higher taxes but stealth charges dont gobble up large percentages of their disposable income.Because of the high rate of tax working class people in denmark have on average more disposable income than working class people in ireland, as healthcare,childcare and dentalcare etc are already paid for.Low taxes and high stealth taxes only benefit the wealthy.

Im sick of the tainaste always glossing herself up over the great job she has done at "lowering the taxes".There are more people in the PAYE sector paying at the higher rate of taxation than there was 7 years ago.whilst the rich are paying less tax than they were 7 years ago.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Sand
Comparisons to the Scandinavian model might hold true if Ireland suddenly discovered North Sea oil of its coast.

Doesn't apply to Sweden.

Were not conveniently positioned close to the hub of europe

Again, neither is Sweden.

were having troubles getting enough people into science fields

Now this is where the comparison becomes really interesting: Sweden spend over three times as much on R&D as we do, they turn out the most science, maths and technology Phds in Europe, AND they have the most applications to the European Patent Office per head. source

our infrastructure is not as developed as most of europe.

And their infrastructure is much better than ours.

The rules of economics do actually apply to us.

Yeah, and it looks like paying for more R&D out of higher taxes might actually be a good idea. It certainly seems to be working for Sweden. But if the state can't afford to invest in innovation and infrastructure, you run the serious risk of losing competitiveness.

So yeah, I'd pay a bit more income tax to be a bit more like Sweden. 15 points more might be pushing it - if Sinn Fein really proposed that they're clearly still a bit politically clueless.

[edit: having read the original article, I see they haven't actually proposed that - the Examiner just got some economist to make up some scary figures for them. It's completely dishonest, since there's other ways to raise money apart from a direct hike in the top rate of tax, which might not even raise that much money due to avoidance etc]

Sparks

Originally posted by Sand
Excellent news today - SF are so far to the left that they make Chinese Communist Party look like anarcho capitalists.

So left=evil?
:rolleyes:

Comparisons to the Scandinavian model might hold true if Ireland suddenly discovered North Sea oil of its coast.

And suddenly developed a greater sense of civic responsibility and regard for rules...
But then, I think that's what we pointed out above.

and were having troubles getting enough people into science fields

That's not the only problem, we're now cutting funding to third level (TCD's budget cuts are now running at over 20%) and demanding that the third level universities just run a more business-like service. Wonderful idea, that. Take the one natural resource we have, slash the funding that produces it, and then throw out over four hundred years of expertise in producing it so we can get a Gordon Gecko in as Provost....

jank

Aww yes good old sinn fein bashing

How can we live without it

ionapaul

Originally posted by jank
Aww yes good old sinn fein bashing

How can we live without it

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.'

Edmund Burke (1729-1797)


It would be wrong for any of us to be silent seeing the recent rise of Sinn Fein. I know some of you think Sinn Fein =/= evil, but many more of us disagree with you.

jank

Yea the rise of sinn fein will see the destruction of irish civilisation as we know it:rolleyes:

Why cant people give them a chance, remember in the first days of our government in the 1920's TD's from both sides brought weapons with them to the dail to protect themselves in case of a "heated debate"

Luckily they werent to be used but dont forget the origans of the "NOBLE", "CLEAN" and "ULTRA-LAWFULL" of FF and FG, now can anybody spell corruption!

Yea we all know that sinn fein's past is kinda dodgey but if we keep looking at the past and trying to nitpick (read the examiner articale and it is something the sun would be very proud of in terms of sheer sensationalisim) then we should be living in caves and hunting deer

In fairness to them they are trying to put the past behind them and to look forward both in the north and the south

I can see them as part of a government in the next 20 years and all the bashing here and in the media wont stop that

And by the way i dont vote for them but I dont fall for the easy trap of
sein fein = evil, lets kill the bastards:dunno:


LOOK TO THE FUTURE NOT THE PAST

:cool:

Lemming

Originally posted by jank
Yea the rise of sinn fein will see the destruction of irish civilisation as we know it:rolleyes:

Why cant people give them a chance, remember in the first days of our government in the 1920's TD's from both sides brought weapons with them to the dail to protect themselves in case of a "heated debate"

<snip>

LOOK TO THE FUTURE NOT THE PAST

Ignoring the private army bit, SF have absolutely sod all experience outside of the context of N.I. and letting them run the country anytime inside at least the next 15/20 years is tantamount to allowing a 6 year old become CEO of a large bank.

ie. not very good.

spongebob

Originally posted by jank
I can see them as part of a government in the next 20 years and all the bashing here and in the media wont stop that

I can see them as part of a Government within 2 years, along wioth the DUP.

If they are a success there then they may even be part of a government here within 5-10 years.

Failure to deal with the soul brothers in the DUP will probably mean that they will NOT be part of a government here within the next 20 years ......once a completely new generation of leaders has flushed out those who failed . The leadership of SF has been static for almost 20 years now ..........unlike every other party except the soul brothers in the DUP.

M

ionapaul

Don't ask a historian to ignore the past, just not gonna happen...:)

They don't just have a 'dodgy past', they have a 'dodgy' (criminal and facist-leaning) present. I know a good few people who wouldn't dare give out about them in public (i.e. where others can hear) for a fairly good reason - THEY HAVE A PRIVATE ARMY OF THUGS who are still out knee-capping and punishment-beating people! I do think that moves towards peace in the North are commendable - I also think that a drug pusher deciding to pack it in and get a proper job is commendable, but doing the right thing after years of screwing up isn't something particularly noble or heroic.

Obviously some posters will think I am over-reacting, that Sinn Fein are 'not so bad' and on the right path...all I can say is that I disagree with you and see them as a serious threat to a happy and prosperous Ireland.

Civilian_Target

Exactly. Sinn Fein are terrorists, they're the political wing of the IRA. It took years to get the guns out of Irish politics (remember the Arms Crisis), and electing Sinn Fein will put the guns right back in there.

Villain

Originally posted by Civilian_Target
Exactly. Sinn Fein are terrorists, they're the political wing of the IRA. It took years to get the guns out of Irish politics (remember the Arms Crisis), and electing Sinn Fein will put the guns right back in there.

Can you please provide links with evidence that

Sinn Fein are terrorists

.

Because otherwise your talking pure crap and obviously are living in the past.:rolleyes:

Jank I agree very much with what you said, but people here don't want to move forward they would rather live in the past.

spongebob

Originally posted by Civilian_Target
Exactly. Sinn Fein are terrorists, they're the political wing of the IRA. It took years to get the guns out of Irish politics (remember the Arms Crisis), and electing Sinn Fein will put the guns right back in there.

Ohh dear, this is a bit simplistic, other politicians have a chequered past too.

Pat Rabbitte is leader of Labour .

During the 1970s 1980s and 1990s Pat was a MEMBER of a party with a military wing, they were Sinn Fein the Workers Party until 20 years ago and thereafter the Workers Party. The military wing , together with LARGE scale counterfeiting of US currency , funded the party during the lean late 1970's and much of the 1980's .

Pat and the more 'democratic' ones left in the 1990s, formed Democratic Left and got into government. They did not dare do so 10 years before when the military wing (the Official IRA) was still quite active, especially in fundraising matters but also in the enforcement of "Democratic Centralism" as they so charmingly described their internal decision making process. Pat Rabbitte NEVER condemned the Official IRA during the 1970s and the 1980s , fear myopia and careerism are a lethal combination sometimes , I am not minded to speculate on the relative weightings that may be ascribed to either or all of them . .

Once Democratic Left left the Workers Party and their (by then insignificant) military wing behind they were in government in very short order. Then they merged with the Labour party and now Pat could be the next Taoiseach. I assert here that I consider Pat a true democrat and that I think he would be a Good Taoiseach .

I ALSO assume that there are democrats of Pats 'calibre' in Sinn Féin itself as well, I expect to see them in charge AFTER another 10-20 years once it is manifestly obvious that the current lot are fossilised in war mode . In the meantime there is the by now 'traditional' issue of the private army.......once which is more active now that the Officials were 20 years ago.

M

ionapaul

Please stop with the 'living in the past' bit, it is a truism to say that we become blind if we ignore the lessons learnt in the past. Who needs to ignore the past except people whose past is problematic? If I were the head of a fascist organisation I would tell people to ignore the past too, or maybe concentrate on history prior to 1920 and since 1945 (and totally ignore Spain and Portugal until quite recently of course ) and ignore the intervening years!

Again, they don't just have a private army in the past, they have one today as well! Any no, I am not going to provide any links to prove the IRA still exists as an organisation.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

BuffyBot

LOOK TO THE FUTURE NOT THE PAST

It may have escaped your notice, but I think that is what people are trying to do on this thread - look at a future influenced by Sinn Fein's "policies".

Villain

Originally posted by daveirl
I'd like to hear what guys like Irish1 think of the taxation suggestions? Obviously I wouldn't expect you to support Sinn Fein on every issue, but is this one that matters to you?

Well I don't think the Examiner's figures are correct, Gerry Adams has said he would carry out a FULL review of the system first, which I think makes sense.

Now can hear people saying thats just a way of avoiding the question, but I think its better to review a system and then come to conclusions than simply throw figures out that you think might win votes. Sinn Fein is seeking an Ireland of equals where the gap between the lower and upper class is closer than presently excists.

I can understand why people who earn vast sums of money would be threatened by that, but I do believe everyone deserves a good standard of living something that isn't happening right now.

Sinn Fein wants to try and make Ireland more self suficient by increasing the number of Irish owned companys, Ireland is the now the most expensive country in EU to llive in, and if the foreign companys were to start moving to India etc we would be left in a very vulnerable situation, so I think we have to try and find a balance.

I'm glad some people can discuss politics in relation to Sinn Fein, a lot of people just make silly statements about them terrorists etc. They are a democratic party who have helped bring about the IRA cease fire and develop the Peace proccess in NI, not something terrorists would do IMHO.

Villain

Originally posted by BuffyBot
It may have escaped your notice, but I think that is what people are trying to do on this thread - look at a future influenced by Sinn Fein's "policies".

SOME people BuffyBot, others simply want to call them terrorists, whether they don't understand politics or simply dont want to accept SF as a polictical party I'm not sure.

Originally posted by irish1
Well I don't think the Examiner's figures are correct, Gerry Adams has said he would carry out a FULL review of the system first, which I think makes sense.

so let me get this straight, there will be no costings untill there is a full review?
When is this review happening?
Is it waiting untill they are in government.

Personally I want to see credible figures before I can vote for a party not just spin and semantics and flowery policy.

All the tools are there for whatever review SF want to make in order to present their policies and the costs of them.
Otherwise all you have is fudge.

This by the way is an attempt to set aside the usual analysis of SF and to scrutinise under the same conditions as the other parties.
IE comparing the beef.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

ionapaul

Originally posted by irish1
Sinn Fein is seeking an Ireland of equals where the gap between the lower and upper class is closer than presently excists.

I can understand why people who earn vast sums of money would be threatened by that, but I do believe everyone deserves a good standard of living something that isn't happening right now.

When offered a choice such as this:
A) Pay for a welfare state that supports the worst-off by levying higher taxes for high earners
Keep tax rates low and leave a greater incentive to work hard/start a business/whatever and keep most of what you earn

I believe most Irish people will go for B. Why? Because everyone likes to think, whether it is true or not, that they can make it big, earn the big bucks, and become rich - and don't want this opportunity made much harder by higher taxes on higher earners. Even those currently among the 'worst-off' section of society, most will think (again, whether it is true or even possible or not) that they can be one of the few to become wealthy. Most people will not willingly place hurdles in their path towards future economic success.

I don't know how the Scandinavian societies have developed their welfare state economies, but I don't think a majority of Irish people want a big welfare state. We are closer to Boston than Berlin on this one.

Villain

Originally posted by daveirl
irish1, does it not worry you that the party have no real experience of governance. Remember Holland's experiment with electing a government of new politicians?

Well daveirl I don't think SF are going to get voted in as majority party and control the Government for a very long time. I'd be thinking along the lines of them been in power with another party of partys and slowly gathering more experience.

I agree with you I wouldn't like to see SF come into power in the morning, all our candidates dont have enough experience, however in 20 years time that will be very different.

Earthman, I believe they would perform such a review if they got into government, not much point in doing a review now and getting elected into government in 10 years and using that review to make taxation decisions. But I see what you mean and perhaps they should carry out a brief review now to give the voters more of insight into their taxation policies.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by irish1
SOME people BuffyBot, others simply want to call them terrorists, whether they don't understand politics or simply dont want to accept SF as a polictical party I'm not sure.

Reacting to it doesn't really help then, does it?

Sparks

Originally posted by irish1
Well I don't think the Examiner's figures are correct, Gerry Adams has said he would carry out a FULL review of the system first, which I think makes sense.

Now can hear people saying thats just a way of avoiding the question, but I think its better to review a system and then come to conclusions than simply throw figures out that you think might win votes.

So you're saying that SF have no plan to fix the problems and haven't carried out a full study of those problems? So why vote for them, when they have (and it's no use denying it) some serious issues with their credibility already, if they haven't any plans anyway?
I mean, I might as well vote for "me mate jacko from down the pub" at that rate...

Originally posted by Sparks
So you're saying that SF have no plan to fix the problems and haven't carried out a full study of those problems? So why vote for them, when they have (and it's no use denying it) some serious issues with their credibility already, if they haven't any plans anyway?
I mean, I might as well vote for "me mate jacko from down the pub" at that rate...

That would also be my view.