69% Tax? No Thanks!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

Originally posted by daveirl
SF economic policies to cost E5bn more a year
Examiner.ie

The Examiner have completed what they believe to be first detailed study of Sinn Féin's economic policies. Sinn Féin's policy of increasing tax, while previously stated by them has been shown to be having a "15% increase in the higher rate from 42% to 57%" and an increase in PRSI to 12%, giving you an astounding 69% rate of taxation.

Will people actually go in for this?

Socialist partys like tax and spend policies.

Instead of allowing people the discretion touse their income they take take and take in the form of taxation.

Why should the Irish tax payer foot the bill for bloated public services?

What incentive does a 69% tax rate give people to work?

I think people would prefer to pay $6 per week to Bupa rather to pay 69% to the goverrment.

I work and they expect that I will pay 69% from my hours work to the government?

AngelofFire

Originally posted by daveirl
Well I'm not a snotty nosed armchair pd, but I'll reply all the same. I don't like the rate of taxation the way it is, but that doesn't preclude me from not wanting an even higher rate of taxation.

would you be in favour of raising the standard taxation rate if it meant that stealth taxes were lowered considerabley.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Cork
Socialist partys like tax and spend policies.

Instead of allowing people the discretion touse their income they take take and take in the form of taxation.

Why should the Irish tax payer foot the bill for bloated public services?

What incentive does a 69% tax rate give people to work?

I think people would prefer to pay $6 per week to Bupa rather to pay 69% to the goverrment.

I work and they expect that I will pay 69% from my hours work to the government?

Before you indulge yourself in neo liberal fantasies you musn`t forget that the system of low taxes high stealth taxes benefits high earners.Since waste charges were introduced the PAYE Worker pays 2% of their income towards the charges whilst the high earner only pays 0.2%, it was much fairer when waste disposal was payed through the standard taxation system as peoples earnings etc were taken into account.The fact that poverty in this country has doubled over the past 7 years is no accident,its the fault of this government`s economic policies.We now rank second in the UN poverty index for developed countries.

Cork

high stealth taxes benefits high earners

Why can't people bring their waste to bring centres?

At the moment - I don't put cardbroad, glass, paper, food waste etc for for landfill. Some of my neighbours are too lazy to seperate their rubbish. Its their choice, If they want to pay for refuse disposal.

The fact that poverty in this country has doubled over the past 7 years is no accident,its the fault of this government`s economic policies.We now rank second in the UN poverty index for developed countries.

In its latest UN Human Development Index of the best countries to live in, the UN agency Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada and The Netherlands were chosen as the best five places to be a citizen of. Belgium is in sixth place, followed by Iceland, the United States, Japan and Ireland to complete the top 10.

So as a country we are in the top 10 places to live according to the UN Human Development Index.

Top 20:

1. Norway
2. Sweden
3. Australia
4. Canada
5. Netherlands
6. Belgium
7. Iceland
8. United States
9. Japan
10. Ireland
11. Switzerland
12. Britain
13. Finland
14. Austria
15. Luxembourg
16. France
17. Denmark
18. New Zealand
19. Germany
20. Spain

SFs tax policy is nonsense. We need more tax like a hole in the head.

People can get health insurance say for 6 euro per week. Why would these people want to hand over 69% of their earnings to the state?

AngelofFire

First of all i dont support Sinn Fein the party i support is Labour.I dont like the idea of a 69% higher taxation rate.I would support 3 taxation rates 20% for small earners 35% for those earning below €70,000 and a 48% rate for high earners.

€6 euro per week is an awfull lot for those on the average industrial wage particularily large families, in cases of them being asthmatic or diabetic that fee could double. A family of 5 with one worker on the minimum wage would have to pay at least €30 per week out of €280.stealth taxes,mortgages etc will gobble much of the remainder of the income.Having essential services such as childcare and healthcare paid for by the standard taxation system works in denmark and sweeden.It has created greaty equity between social classes, The average industrial worker in Denmark has more disposable income than his/her counterpart in ireland.The countries with the lowest poverty on the Un development index were those with higher taxes.

ionapaul

Originally posted by AngelofFire
€6 euro per week is an awfull lot for those on the average industrial wage particularily large families.

Fair enough point, but even if someone is making €250,000, should they have to pay for someone else's large family? What is mean is that is seems pretty irresponsible to have a large family is you only have one person in the family making money, and not a whole lot at that! It does anger me a little when I see young girls or young working-class couples walking around with three or four kids in tow - it isn't fair on the kids, who don't get enough resources spent on them, nor on the taxpayer, who is expected to fund this large family. Maybe I'm way out of line, but I don't plan to have any kids until I am well established with a decent income and a good sized investment put away so they can be taken care of.

Cork

High Taxes has not worked in Ireland. It encourages people not to go to work but to stay at home and draw welfare.

Low taxes mean that people have the power to spend the money that they earn.

FF introduced measures to tax property years ago but it met with a revolt from certain middle class interest groups.

Paying 69% tax is pure nonsense. The Green Party are also in favour of Green Taxes.

These partys would like to spend your money as they like. But it should be up to you how you spend it.

I earn far less than the average industrial wage and I pay for medical insurance. I don't smoke or have cable TV.

I don't pay bin charges as I recycle. But I don't pay much tax. I have the power to spend what I earn.

High tax rates take this right away from me & I would probably then be better on the dole or doing a CERT or Fas course.

shotamoose

Originally posted by AngelofFire
The fact that poverty in this country has doubled over the past 7 years is no accident

I'm pretty sure poverty has not doubled over the past 7 years. Some evidence for your claim would be nice.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Cork
High Taxes has not worked in Ireland. It encourages people not to go to work but to stay at home and draw welfare.

If that was true Sweden would be the most bone-idle place in the world. It isn't. In fact, according to the figures you just quoted, it has a higher standard of living than Ireland. I think most of the other countries above us in the table also have higher tax burdens.

Ireland's position in the Human Development Index is artifially high since a major element in the index is GDP per capita. GDP measures money made within the country which is subsequently taken abroad, such as the corporate profits sent overseas, but GNP doesn't. Surprise surprise, our GNP per capita is 20% lower than our GDP capita, which puts us ninth instead of third in the income list.

Paying 69% tax is pure nonsense.

Absolutely. As I said above, Sinn Fein haven't proposed a 69% tax rate. So why are you saying they have?

The Green Party are also in favour of Green Taxes.

As are Fianna Fail, if the plastic bag tax is anything to go by.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by ionapaul
Fair enough point, but even if someone is making €250,000, should they have to pay for someone else's large family? What is mean is that is seems pretty irresponsible to have a large family is you only have one person in the family making money, and not a whole lot at that! It does anger me a little when I see young girls or young working-class couples walking around with three or four kids in tow - it isn't fair on the kids, who don't get enough resources spent on them, nor on the taxpayer, who is expected to fund this large family. Maybe I'm way out of line, but I don't plan to have any kids until I am well established with a decent income and a good sized investment put away so they can be taken care of.

That is snobbery of the classist and adherent kind. Do not judge people with large families because of their socio economic background.For the record i know a lot of middle class teenage parents.Not everybody can afford to pay for services through their own pocket and its not necessarily their choice.Therefore taxation and public services are needed to ensure that proper services are a right for all not a priveledge for the wealthy and that wealth is distributed in a fair of and equitable manner.We should not abandon social compassion just because a greedy elite group are reluctant to share their wealth. Look at America, its a great place for the rich,yet for the working class its a struggle,there is no welfare service,healthcare is only available to those who can afford to pay high premium insurance.As a result america has more poverty than any other developed country.

Cork

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Therefore taxation and public services are needed to ensure that proper services are a right for all not a priveledge for the wealthy and that wealth is distributed in a fair of and equitable manner.We should not abandon social compassion just because a greedy elite group are reluctant to share their wealth.

As taxpayers we clearly deserve effective and efficent social services that are available to those who are in greatest need. Not providing services to all and sundry and freeloaders.

We all pay taxation. Taxpayers deserve that tax money is spent well.

Heaping more tax on PAYE workers will not provide us with better public services. Increasing health spending massisely has not radically improved the system.

The Minister has wisely undertaken a strategic review taking it out of the political areana.

Throwing money at problems will not solve the problem.


Taxing people at 69% is economic nonsense. Who would work if they were paying 69 cents in the euro to the governmennt?

AngelofFire

As i said i do not support a 69% tax rate. My tax suggestions relieve some of the taxation burden off the paye workers and transfer it to the super rich.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Cork
Taxing people at 69% is economic nonsense. Who would work if they were paying 69 cents in the euro to the governmennt?

It's like talking to a brick wall ....

BuffyBot

Taxing people at 69% is economic nonsense. Who would work if they were paying 69 cents in the euro to the governmennt?

Guess it depends on what the people were getting out of it!

Cork

Raising tax rates will put less in peoples pockets. It won't improve the quality of public services. It will most probably lead to a "brain drain".

Why this constant tax on labour.

Why not local or property tax?

Tax and spend policies do not work.

If I was to redesign the tax system - I would have a 5% income tax rate, property tax, local taxes and consumption taxes.

I would abolish motor tax.

But puposing a 69% tax rate is crazy and it would only bring us back to the tax marches of the 70's.

NinjaBart

speaking as a sinn fein voter who would actually be paying that 69% (we are not all poor and envious of tigers) i think that sparks's post raises teh most interesting problem. economically i agreed with the decisions of th rainbow colition and they helped me get into a position of high earning (doing away with third levl fees for example) so i dont see why i shouldnt pay back now that im earning well. however as sparks says the costs of living here are outrageous and no amount of money will fix the health system until it gets reorganised as far as i can tell. in tht context it doesnt seem wrkable and the challenge must be to reform things until we're in a state that it is.

ps if your all so sure that they wont ever be in governemnt why do you even bother with these threads? broken records from teh anti sinn fein brigade aernt any more convincing than the broken records from some of the pro sinnfein brigade. i applaud the non sinnfein supporters heere who can actually mke an inteligent point (bonkey, shotamoose, sparks). it makes me examine who i vote for. the same poeple saying the same predictable things dont.

Cork

Well If people believe so strongly that they are paying too little tax - let them make volantary contributions to schools and hospitals etc.

NinjaBart

wtf

sure lets not bother with tax rates at all and pay whatever we feel like paying. thatll do away with having to making any useful points in a discussion about tax policy. sure if any of ye feel that your paying too much tax then you have my permission to go and steal teh difference back under cork's new systm of social equality.

shotamoose i use the 69% figure because its hte one being touted not because im ignoring your posts. i take ti as a general concept of a higher taxed society.

AngelofFire

So some posters on the thread believe that ireland`s position as the country with the second highest rate of poverty in the developed world is justified as we have low taxes.


"So suffer little children its good for the economy"

Meh

Originally posted by AngelofFire
So some posters on the thread believe that ireland`s position as the country with the second highest rate of poverty in the developed world is justified as we have low taxes.

"Poverty" and "inequality" are not the same thing. The number of people in Ireland living in absolute poverty has decreased dramatically over the past decade (from 14.9% to 4.9%; source).

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
If I was to redesign the tax system - I would have a 5% income tax rate, property tax, local taxes and consumption taxes.

And how would you finance this manifesto? All a 5% income tax rate would do is create a black market in property with part of the money paid abroad and then repariated as income. A successful tax system needs to take something from everything to prevent avoidance and evasion.

Originally posted by Cork
..... and consumption taxes. ....I would abolish motor tax.

Isn't motor tax a consumption tax?

shotamoose

Originally posted by Meh
"Poverty" and "inequality" are not the same thing.

Depends on your point of view. Many people think relative poverty is important too as it affects a person's ability to participate fully in society. From your source:

“People are living in poverty if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living that is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and resources, people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities that are considered the norm for other people”.

Some trace the importance of relative poverty all the way back to Adam Smith, who gave the example of a peasnt In 18th century England who because unable to afford wearing a linen shirt would not participate to social events in his village, even though he and his family might not be undernourished.

Relative poverty has increased from 16% to 22% in 2001, but as you say 'consistent poverty' (which includes indicators of material deprivation such as food and clothing) has fallen sharply, so overall I'd say the government's performance on poverty is good but with room for improvement.

ionapaul

Originally posted by Meh
"Poverty" and "inequality" are not the same thing. The number of people in Ireland living in absolute poverty has decreased dramatically over the past decade (from 14.9% to 4.9%; source).

Wow, that really is interesting. I never knew they broke the figures down like that - so does that mean the the large percentage of the population in the US in the poverty bracket might include some that are poor merely relative to their impressively wealthy countrymen? Would those some of the American poor be reclassified as middle class if they lived their lives in other developed countries? I am sure their standard of living would be regarded as upper class in many of the least developed countries!

Though when I lived in the States, although I recognised that it was the best country in the world to make yourself as rich through hard work and personal effort, it is an awful place to be poor, with so much wealth around you. I'd rather be poor in Ireland than the States.