Willy O'Dea's reply to Sinn Féin criticism

ReefBreak

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I like his response. Of real interest are his quotes from the Shinner's Eire Nua document:
- "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership."
Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

"Only resident citizens of the republic will be allowed to own, purchase or lease land within Ireland." Hello Sinn Féin, goodbye inward investment.

The rest of the article details why Sinn Féin are no too dissimilar to the Nazis. Well done Willy O'Dea, more please.

Like I said before: Sinn Féin = The Irish Nazi Party.

swiss

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I know I should probably register to see these links that people cite, but it is still preferable to quote an article if registration is required to view it.

Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

This is something I've wondered quite often. Personally I'm not in favour of SF's economic policies. I would be in favour of a more socialist orientated system of government, but I feel such reforms as these go too far. Nevertheless, I would not berate anyone who voted for SF on the strength of these policies. I would however, point out that there are... other... areas of SF policy with which I would have a significantly larger problem.

That said, does anyone really know what they're voting for when they vote for a party. If you vote FF for example, can you detail all of their party policies accurately?

Again, please quote the article if possible. Where are Willie O'Dea's sources (unless they are published SF policy)?

cruiserweight

I read the article and here it is in full for those of you who are not registered to unison(it is free anyway)

Germans did not fear Nazis then either

LAST Sunday this paper revealed that I had been approached by a number of business professionals in the mid-west who are concerned at the rise of Sinn Fein. Since then, I have been subjected to a barrage of attacks from Sinn Fein - which demonstrates that my observations have hit a nerve.

The problem identified by those concerned by Sinn Fein's recent successes is twofold: One is the nature of the organisation itself and its retention of a private army, the other relates to its visionfor Ireland.

Taking the second point first, it is a wholly legitimate question to ask what economic model Sinn Fein would like to see operate on this island. Their manifestos contain bland statements on equality and enterprise and standard calls for greater spending. But what are the guiding principles underpinning them?

One has to go back to Sinn Fein's Eire Nua document to find any. In the Basic Principles section of that document, they say: "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership". This enlightened document also contains this visionary and encompassing commitment that: "Only resident citizens of the republic will be allowed to own, purchase or lease land within Ireland."

And Sinn Fein wonders why people would fear for the future of inward investment?

Are these still their basic principles? Many of their workers seem to think so. Last week Mary Lou McDonald was calling for an increase in corporation tax - a few days later, Caoimhghin O Caolain was denying it was their policy. Which is it?

Sinn Fein claims that I can't accuse them of having policies that are at the same time detrimental and non-specific. Yes I can. I accuse them of economic doublespeak. On the doorsteps their canvassers may adopt a "whatever you're having yourself" response to policy queries, but this masks the core principles.

If Sinn Fein still adheres to the national socialist vision set out in the Seventies, let it say so clearly, rather than trying to introduce it by stealth. This national socialist vision coupled with a private army raises the issue of the nature of the organisation itself. One has only to look back to the early part of the last century to see a similar type organisation. Nationalist socialism combined with a private army has dark reverberations.

Why does Sinn Fein retain a private army? Probably for the same reason another national socialist party required one: for the purposes of increasingly less subtle intimidation and menace.

In Twenties, many Germans felt the rise of national socialism was something the body politic could deal with. In 1927, after the Nazis enjoyed a similar election result to Sinn Fein's recent one, the Weimar Minister for the Interior dismissed them as "a numerically insignificant radical revolutionary splinter group incapable of exerting any noticeable influence on the course of political events". Six year later they were in power.

There are similar echoes in today's Ireland. Commentators will devote thousands of words to why my arguments here are alarmist. So did many in the Weimar Republic. If they want to know how Sinn Fein operates at close quarters, let them talk to the SDLP.

Sinn Fein activists will react in horror to any comparisons between their behaviour and the events in Thirties Germany. I don't claim they are pursuing the same hateful policies as the Nazis, but they do employ similar operational techniques.

The undermining of public confidence in State institutions is one. Witness Sinn Fein's ongoing refusal to urge co-operation with the Garda/PSNI investigation of the Omagh bombing. Sinn Fein may be against crime, but only if it does not require them to support the police.

We have all sought to bring Sinn Fein from the paramilitary world into the political one. This was the right thing to do, even though we have effectively raised a cuckoo in our midst. Sinn Fein's reluctance to take the final step into the political world by disavowing their associates in the paramilitary world is not something we can tolerate.

This is the time to expose Sinn Fein's doublespeak and hypocrisy. This is the time to take them on politically. The lessons of history show that waiting is not an option.

Willie O'Dea is Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality & LawReform.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

jmcc

Originally posted by ReefBreak
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I like his response. Of real interest are his quotes from the Shinner's Eire Nua document:
- "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership."
Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

So explain just what Eircom's ESOT is again.

I don't follow the activities of SF or any party closely but wasn't the Eire Nua document a SF document from the 1970s?

Like I said before: Sinn Féin = The Irish Nazi Party.

You seem to be extraordinarily gullible to believe that this is anything other than showboating by O'Dea. His historical analysis is dubious at best. FF is in serious trouble as the government has become more right wing due to the influence of the PDs. Consequently, FF is losing a lot of what was its core working class vote in some areas to SF. It is this incursion on FF territory that worries O'Dea and FF. I seem to recall some people claiming that SF would join the Communist bloc in the European parliament. However that is somewhat at odds with the idea that they are a Nazi party.

As for undermining confidence in State institutions, Ray Burke, a former FF minister was up in court for fraudulent tax returns. People are sick and tired of hearing about scum in banks ripping off people, scum in politics and their brown envelopes. Corruption in Irish society goes a lot deeper and SF provides a nice scapegoat for people like O'Dea to present as being some threat in the future.

Regards...jmcc

Villain

Originally posted by jmcc
I don't follow the activities of SF or any party closely but wasn't the Eire Nua document a SF document from the 1970s?

Yes it does, although it has been updated a few times, not sure what version Mr O'Dea was using.

Originally posted by jmcc
You seem to be extraordinarily gullible to believe that this is anything other than showboating by O'Dea. His historical analysis is dubious at best. FF is in serious trouble as the government has become more right wing due to the influence of the PDs. Consequently, FF is losing a lot of what was its core working class vote in some areas to SF. It is this incursion on FF territory that worries O'Dea and FF. I seem to recall some people claiming that SF would join the Communist bloc in the European parliament. However that is somewhat at odds with the idea that they are a Nazi party.

As for undermining confidence in State institutions, Ray Burke, a former FF minister was up in court for fraudulent tax returns. People are sick and tired of hearing about scum in banks ripping off people, scum in politics and their brown envelopes. Corruption in Irish society goes a lot deeper and SF provides a nice scapegoat for people like O'Dea to present as being some threat in the future.

Regards...jmcc

Excellent points.

If Mr O'Dea wants to go back to the 70's maybe he should look at who was Minister for Justice!!! and what he has pleaded guilty to. FF shouldn't be throwing stones in glasshouses.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Do the people that vote SF/IRA actually know what they're voting for?

No, of course not. Anyone who disagrees with you is obviously incapable of making an informed choice :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Like I said before: Sinn Féin = The Irish Nazi Party.

Nazi...Communist...Nazi...Communist....
make up your mind

Originally posted by jmcc
I don't follow the activities of SF or any party closely but wasn't the Eire Nua document a SF document from the 1970s?

Yes, and Republican Sinn Fein are still harping on about it to this day. I agree with your other points btw.

Irish04

Sinn Féin did indeed drop the Éire nua policy. Republican Sinn Féin believe that it is possible to implement Éire Nua however Sinn Féin do not

And how people can compare Sinn Féin to the NAZIs is actually quite sad. The fact that the NAZIs followed Right Wing Policies and Sinn Féin follow Left Wing Policies is just one of the many, many differences between the two

The PDs and McDowell are the only Party on this isle that remotely come close to being NAZI. Roll on the next election where the PDs will hopefully have 0,1,2 or 3 seats. They Suck



Vótáil Sinn Féin

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Irish04
Sinn Féin did indeed drop the Éire nua policy. Republican Sinn Féin believe that it is possible to implement Éire Nua however Sinn Féin do not

And how people can compare Sinn Féin to the NAZIs is actually quite sad. The fact that the NAZIs followed Right Wing Policies and Sinn Féin follow Left Wing Policies is just one of the many, many differences between the two

NAZI stood for Nationalist Socialist. Remind you of anyone? Plus, like Sinn Féin/IRA, they had a habit of murdering people that didn't agree with their views. Not to mention the fact that they had people (such as Sean Russell) that allied themselves to the Nazis during WWII, and actively sought their help.

The PDs and McDowell are the only Party on this isle that remotely come close to being NAZI. Roll on the next election where the PDs will hopefully have 0,1,2 or 3 seats. They Suck

"They suck." Marvellous analysis of the situation there. Please explain why the PDs are like the NAZIs. The PDs like to murder Jews? Perhaps the NAZIs had a low taxation policy that promoted investment and enterprise? Wasn't it Sinn Féin that actively sought the explusion of Jews from Ireland in the earlier part of this century.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Sinn Féin/IRA, they had a habit of murdering people that didn't agree with their views.

SF murdered who, can you please provide links to back that claim???

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
SF murdered who, can you please provide links to back that claim???

Like I and many others have said before, IRA and Sinn Féin are inextricably linked right up to the top levels of the organisation. Members of Sinn Féin have murdered people. You know it, I know it. Yet you still insist on voting for them.

edit: I can provide plenty on who and how many people were murdered by SF/IRA members.

Hobbes

Originally posted by daveirl
For those sites that require registration check out http://bugmenot.com

There are plugins for your browser there also.

I was going to suggest that as well. Bugmenot plugin for firebird has to be one of the best ever.

Back on topic...

All I have to say is, the government are bringing it on themselves. If you don't want SF voted in then don't be such a shower of corruptable SOB's (alledgly).

Reefbreak if you have any such proof of current members of SF killing people please post it.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Hobbes
Reefbreak if you have any such proof of current members of SF killing people please post it.

Former prisoners that were released under the GFA that are now members of the SF. Considering the thousands of people that were murdered by the IRA, I'm sure there's more than a few. I'll try and find a few names.

Paladin

Sinn Fein saying that they are not the IRA reminds me of the Monty Python Parrot sketch.

"Its not dead. Its just resting."

I wonder if a single Sinn Fein supporter really believes the propaganda that Sinn Fein are not really made up of IRA members (honest!).

Not a single sinn fein member can ever admit the parrot is dead, despite it starting to decompose.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Members of Sinn Féin have murdered people. You know it, I know it.

Link please?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Link please?

Sinn Féin(edit: 's political wing, the IRA,) murdered over 1800 people since 1969. Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin. Yes or No? The best example I can give is the Balcomb Street Gang.

"The Balcombe Street gang include Sinn Féin vice-president Pat Doherty's brother, Hugh; Martin O'Connell (47) from Ennis, Co. Clare; his fellow countyman Harry Duggan(46) and Limerickman Eddie Butler (50)." Is Pat Doherty's brother a member of Sinn Fein? If he is, then Sinn Féin have murderers as their members.

From http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0%2C3604%2C309616%2C00.html
"The gang's activities had intensified in the previous five months, following the breakdown of a long IRA ceasefire. The four men were convicted of eight killings and up to 50 bombings and shootings in public areas. Among those they murdered was father-of-four Gordon Hamilton-Fairley, a professor and cancer expert, who worked at St Bartholomew's hospital. He was killed by a car bomb in October 1975.

They also shot dead Ross McWhirter, the television personality and co-founder of the Guinness Book of World Rec-ords, at his home in Enfield, north London. He had offered a £50,000 reward for their capture. "
...Yet you're twisted political opinions mean that you continue to vote for them. Sinn Féin/IRA and their supporters may prefer that we forget what they did ("don't look to the past!"), but the rest of us would prefer that the murdered werer never forgetten. Forgetting it will only open the door to bring it all back again.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
but the rest of us would prefer that the murdered werer never forgetten.

Really?

Thanks for deciding what my position on that is Reef and speaking for me. Appreciate it.

I was going to say something different, but apparently I prefer that the murdered were never forgotten.....

jc

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Sinn Féin murdered over 1800 people since 1969.

Really??? Link Please

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Really??? Link Please

Apologies, that was a typo. I actually meant: Sinn Féin's terrorist wing, the IRA, murdered over 1800 people since 1969.

ReefBreak

So I'll ask you again:

Sinn Féin terrorist wing, the IRA, murdered over 1800 people since 1969. Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin. Yes or No? The best example I can give is the Balcomb Street Gang.

"The Balcombe Street gang include Sinn Féin vice-president Pat Doherty's brother, Hugh; Martin O'Connell (47) from Ennis, Co. Clare; his fellow countyman Harry Duggan(46) and Limerickman Eddie Butler (50)." Is Pat Doherty's brother a member of Sinn Fein? If he is, then Sinn Féin have murderers as their members. "

Etc...

Mighty_Mouse

Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin.

wow! Now that its in bold? This is an annoying old trick of yours where its a case of guilty until proven innocent. If you want to make a point that your little knowledge of northern ireland cannot proove i suggest your think before you post in future!!
Oh! And another old trick of posting cases of IRA murders? Whats that all about? Do we really need to go hurt for hurt, attrocity for attrocity here?

I wonder if a single Sinn Fein supporter really believes the propaganda that Sinn Fein are not really made up of IRA members

What propaganda that Sinn Fein doesn't have ex-IRA members? Personally I've never heard any such statement. But if your asking if every single member of Sinn Fein was a member of the IRA.............then your raving man!!

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
wow! Now that its in bold? This is an annoying old trick of yours where its a case of guilty until proven innocent. If you want to make a point that your little knowledge of northern ireland cannot proove i suggest your think before you post in future!!
Oh! And another old trick of posting cases of IRA murders? Whats that all about? Do we really need to go hurt for hurt, attrocity for attrocity here?

Followed by the Sinn Féin technique of ignoring the difficult questions by diverting the answer. Do you hosestly believe that not one single IRA murderer is not now a member of Sinn Féin. If you do, then you're even more naive than I thought.

Mighty_Mouse

Sinn Féin murdered over 1800 people since 1969

Do you hosestly believe that not one single IRA murderer is not now a member of Sinn Féin. If you do, then you're even more naive than I thought.

But you are making the point here Reefbreak!!! You tell me whether they have or not (I'm even tempted to help you here!) It shouldl be an easy enough thing to find out surely?

bus77

Originally posted by ReefBreak
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1213200&issue_id=11122

I like his response. Of real interest are his quotes from the Shinner's Eire Nua document:
- "There would be an upper limit to the size of any private enterprise. Anything above this limit will come under community or co-operative ownership."

I'm not an economics expert but isnt that similar to the way large companys are encoraged(by the system) to "go public" ie.on the stock market?

Meh

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Oh! And another old trick of posting cases of IRA murders? Whats that all about? Do we really need to go hurt for hurt, attrocity for attrocity here?

Well, if you can point out any murders that Willie O'Dea or his colleagues/associates in Fianna Fáil are guilty of, then you're welcome to do so. Until then, the high moral ground belongs to FF (for once).

ionapaul

bus77, I don't think Sinn Fein mean that such large companies would be forced public on the stock exchange! I am sure they mean something more akin to state-ownership or control...like the economic model that was so spectacularly unsuccessful in Soviet Russia.

Hobbes

Originally posted by ReefBreak

Sinn Féin terrorist wing, the IRA, murdered over 1800 people since 1969. Do you honestly believe that not one of those murderers is not now a member of Sinn Féin. Yes or No? The best example I can give is the Balcomb Street Gang.

Compared to other parties in the north? What is your point?

Also look at the number of attacks in the North since the good Friday agreement. How many are linked to the IRA?

Your point is you are saying SF and the IRA are the same thing. By that logic of thinking all the loyalist parties are just as bad, as well as the British.

Sinn Féin murdered over 1800 people since 1969

Figures are subjective. You pick since 1969, why not pick from 1998 when hostilities stopped?

Btw, the Irish government (FF) were terrorists one time, or did you forget that? Bare in mind I am following your logic that anyone who joins a party becomes a terrorist.

Villain

Originally posted by Meh
Well, if you can point out any murders that Willie O'Dea or his colleagues/associates in Fianna Fáil are guilty of, then you're welcome to do so. Until then, the high moral ground belongs to FF (for once).

But he hasn't pointed out any membes of SF who are murderers.

Anyway this thread has gobe off topic yet again because people can't stick to topics they simply want to bash SF.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
But he hasn't pointed out any membes of SF who are murderers.

Raymond McCartney is a convicted murderer.

"Mr McCartney, a former IRA commanding officer in the Maze, was jailed for killing English businessman Jeffrey Agate in Derry in February 1977. "
...from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/northern_ireland/2236997.stm

Happy?

(Sinn Féin Chairman) Pat Doherty's brother Hugh, was a member of the murderous Balcombe Street Gang. I would be very surprised if he is not also a member of Sinn Fein.

Mighty_Mouse

Raymond McCartney is a convicted murderer.

God help ya! You took your time with it!! lol. I was very neary gonna help you but I suppose it boils down to a big: SO WHAT!!! Whats the point here reefbreak?? Has someone denied that people were murdered in the Troubles and that those communities involved have now turned to a political struggle?

Are we saying that Dev, Collins etc should'nt of been allowed into the first Irish government?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
God help ya! You took your time with it!! lol. I was very neary gonna help you but I suppose it boils down to a big: SO WHAT!!! Whats the point here reefbreak?? Has someone denied that people were murdered in the Troubles and that those communities involved have now turned to a political struggle?

Are we saying that Dev, Collins etc should'nt of been allowed into the first Irish government?

Oh, for crying out loud. With all due respect, your style of writing/spelling/texting makes me feel like I'm arguing with a 15 year-old (ironic considering your signature). But that's beside the point. What do you mean, "what's the point?".. Irish1 asked me for a link that members of Sinn Féin were murderers. I provided a link, which didn't take me very long by the way. As for Dev, Collins, etc, I wouldn't have voted for them if I thought they had murdered anyone.

Which brings me to Sinn Fein debating technique #3: Use the past to justify the present. Highly ironic considering Sinn Fein debating technique #4: request everyone to forget the past when discussing recent IRA atrocities. Even more ironic when you think of Sinn Fein debating technique #5: Use every opportunity to remind people about the murderous acts committed by the loyalist paramilitaries, and demand inquiries into them where it suits.