Willy O'Dea's reply to Sinn Féin criticism

Hobbes

Originally posted by ReefBreak

(Sinn Féin Chairman) Pat Doherty's brother Hugh, was a member of the murderous Balcombe Street Gang. I would be very surprised if he is not also a member of Sinn Fein.

He isn't. He might vote for them though, but last time I checked that didn't make the people in the party terrorists.

request everyone to forget the past when discussing recent IRA atrocities.

Funny how you forget them as well, or do you think the IRA operated on their own and no one else had anything to do with deaths.

Even more ironic when you think of Sinn Fein debating technique #5: Use every opportunity to remind people about the murderous acts committed by the loyalist paramilitaries, and demand inquiries into them where it suits.

Why not? List off all the people who were released with the good friday agreement (on both sides). Then tell me where they all went.

You have listed one person, but you are claiming all of them are terrorists.

Btw, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are Sinn Fein.

O'Deas news article (if you can call it that) is scaremongering based on dated information.

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Raymond McCartney is a convicted murderer.

Ok so now you have provided 1 member who was convicted of murder and has now turned to politics, does that make Sinn Fein terrorists???

If you believe that then maybe your the 15 year old here, Ray Burke has pleaded guilty to charges which make him corrupt, are FF as a party corrupt???, I don't think so.

jmcc

Originally posted by ReefBreak
NAZI stood for Nationalist Socialist. Remind you of anyone? Plus, like Sinn Féin/IRA, they had a habit of murdering people that didn't agree with their views. Not to mention the fact that they had people (such as Sean Russell) that allied themselves to the Nazis during WWII, and actively sought their help.

Your knowledge of history seems to be right up there with O'Dea's. The Communists also had their own private army and were killing people who didn't agree with their outlook too. The whole period was a situation were a number of groups were jockeying for power in Germany. Merely mentioning the word "Nazi" and asking if it reminds someone of SF because it is a composite of the words Nationalist and Socialist is extraordinarily dubious logic.

"They suck." Marvellous analysis of the situation there. Please explain why the PDs are like the NAZIs.

This is not from my post. However the PDs are more right wing (just like the Nazis) than left wing (like the Communists). You could even get into extremist territory and argue that McDowell's Referendum was racist just like the Nazis and their restriction of citizenship under the Nuremburg laws. But perhaps that is going a bit too far because it is a completely different set of circumstances.

But perhaps the biggest giveaway to your O'Dea like grasp of history is this:

Wasn't it Sinn Féin that actively sought the explusion of Jews from Ireland in the earlier part of this century.

If you are going to argue about historical matters, the least you could do is to get the century right.

Regards...jmcc

ReefBreak

Originally posted by jmcc

But perhaps the biggest giveaway to your O'Dea like grasp of history is this: If you are going to argue about historical matters, the least you could do is to get the century right.

Regards...jmcc

More pedantic arguing based on a typo. Obviously I meant to type "the earlier part of the last century", but I'll assume you knew that.

Originally posted by irish1
are FF as a party corrupt???, I don't think so.

LoL
I never thought I'd see the day when you'd post that!
Can I add it to my signiture

Villain

Originally posted by Earthman
LoL
I never thought I'd see the day when you'd post that!
Can I add it to my signiture

lol, of course you can!

ionapaul

Originally posted by irish1
Ok so now you have provided 1 member who was convicted of murder and has now turned to politics, does that make Sinn Fein terrorists???

If he provided 10 members, would that make any difference to any of us? We have all got our opinions on Sinn Fein and it doesn't seem like we are going to change them People see Haughey's actions during the 70s and 80s and call him corrupt today, others see Sinn Fein and IRA actions from the 60s to the present and call that as we see it.

Mighty_Mouse

Ok, Once again I'm forced to slowly break it down for you Reefbreak! Your origional post stated:

Like I and many others have said before, IRA and Sinn Féin are inextricably linked right up to the top levels of the organisation. Members of Sinn Féin have murdered people. You know it, I know it. Yet you still insist on voting for them.

To which irish asked for some details or corrected you and asking you to distinguish between the IRA and Sinn Fein. The question still remains

SO WHAT!!! Whats the point here reefbreak?? Has someone denied that people were murdered in the Troubles and that those communities involved have now turned to a political struggle?

To which you responded:

Irish1 asked me for a link that members of Sinn Féin were murderers. I provided a link, which didn't take me very long by the way.

Mmmmm!! See if you can figure out where you once again lost track on logic and slipped your Doctor Ian hat on!

like I'm arguing with a 15 year-old

I've really been resisting the urge to say the same to you!;)

As for Dev, Collins, etc, I wouldn't have voted for them if I thought they had murdered anyone.

Rrrrright! So you would of ....... (War of Independance/Civil War - not too many politicians without blood on their hands) .... formed an alliance party or something? Do you always completely refuse to accept reality?

Sinn Fein debating technique #3: Use the past to justify the present

Another self-made logical rule from Reffer! Everything is the past FFS!!!! So yesterdays rioting is the past!! Which means you can use it to justify any animosity towards Sinn Fein!!lol;)

debating technique #4: request everyone to forget the past when discussing recent IRA atrocities.

I don't remember this ever been used. Do you think your bitterness is starting to cloud your vision a little again Reefbreak?At the most Sinn Fein asks that all communities be treated equally, me thinks!

#5: Use every opportunity to remind people about the murderous acts committed by the loyalist paramilitaries, and demand inquiries into them where it suits

Loyalist murderes didn't happen? Again another "whats the point" arises! Enquires.....don't think Sinn Fein has opposed the rights of loyalists to call for similar enquires. King Rat for example

People see Haughey's actions during the 70s and 80s and call him corrupt today, others see Sinn Fein and IRA actions from the 60s to the present and call that as we see it

People like willie o dea by any chance?

Tommy Vercetti

I'm pretty sure that members of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael were involved in The War of Independence and the Civil War. Reefbreak, are you excusing them for being responsible for the deaths of people, or was that ok?

Is it ok for members of Unionist/Loyalist parties, and the Orange Order to be members of Loyalist death squads (who are still operating to this day)? Why no outcry about that?

Also, the Queen of England and British Government are responsible for murdering people in Ireland for a long, long time through her army. Why have you failed to mention this?

Some of us have moved on from the past, we don't feel the need to drag it up when our argument requires it. And I'm saying that as someone who has lost family members to some of the above organisations. If people choose to vote for Sinn Féin (or any other party - north and south), then that is their democratic right. If some of the more traditional parties are losing voters in their droves, perhaps they should be taking a look at the reasons why this is happening instead of going to the media with hysterical, and often dubious, claims about their political opponents.

ionapaul

It is your democratic right to vote for whomever you want - but voting for that party doesn't mean you are upholding democratic ideals or anything! Lots of Germans voted for the Nazi party during the 30s - that was their democratic right. People in England vote for the BNP - that is their democratic right. I suppose that is the big problem with democracy, it can be fairly easily undermined by the undemocratic! It is a truism that you can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time

None of the above has anything to do with Willie O'Dea, so I apologise for being off-topic.

ionapaul

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Is it ok for members of Unionist/Loyalist parties, and the Orange Order to be members of Loyalist death squads (who are still operating to this day)? Why no outcry about that?

Also, the Queen of England and British Government are responsible for murdering people in Ireland for a long, long time through her army. Why have you failed to mention this?

Hand on heart, I promise never, EVER, to vote for political parties representing:
a) Ulster loyalists
b) The Orange Order
c) The Queen of England
b) The British Army

sceptre

Originally posted by ionapaul
Hand on heart, I promise never, EVER, to vote for political parties representing:
a) Ulster loyalists
b) The Orange Order
c) The Queen of England
b) The British Army

Better watch for those political parties representing the last two. That Queen gets some mad ideas sometimes with the Queen for Life Party. And she's planning on handing over power to her big earred hippy son when she shuffles off her mortal coil.

Sand

To which irish asked for some details or corrected you and asking you to distinguish between the IRA and Sinn Fein. The question still remains

Ive seen this time and time again, the wilful ignorance and refusal to see the truth. Lets go to www.sinnfein.ie and check out their leadership page.

In advance Ill state it clearly to be very fair- there are two strands to the SF party. There is the Northern old Guard which are running the show and have dictated SFs direction since the 1980s when they convinced their IRA comrades of the merits of the ballot box strategy.

There is a the second "new" SF whose members are young, highly motivated and not identifiably IRA members. They are cut from the same cloth as their new found supporters in the south in that they can overlook their parties symbiotic relationship with the IRA and their colleagues past, present and future.

Lets run down the list of SF/IRA members.

Gerry Adams, President:
Convicted IRA bomber Dolours Price, described Gerry Adams as her commanding officer at the time of her involvement in a 4 car bomb on London, March 8th, 1973 at a republican event in February 2001 – Irish Echo Newspaper Corp, March 2001.

His father was a IRA member convicted for shooting RUC officers.

He was interned in 1971, but was senior enough in some republican organisation to be released in July 1972 to take part in secret talks between the IRA and NI Secretary Whitelaw. He was 23 years old. He did not become president of SF for another 11 years.

Has refused to confirm or deny his IRA membership, claiming he could get 10 years for it.

Joe Cahill, Honorary Vice President:

Self confessed IRA member. Sentenced to death for murdering a RUC man, commuted to life, released after 7 years under an amnesty program.

Commander of the Provisional IRA in west Belfast during the 1970s. Arrested in 1973 for smuggling arms into Ireland on board the Claudia.

Founded Irish Northern Aid in the US to get funds for the IRA murders.

Pat Doherty, Vice President:

Born in Glasgow, Nicknamed Papa Doc, His brother was a member of the IRA Balcombe Street Gang. Identified by police intelligence to be a member of the PIRA army council, which he has always denied.

Mitchel McLaughlin, Chairperson:

A friend of McGuiness’ from back in the days when they were hurling petrol bombs in Derry 1969. As leader of SF in Derry he’s gone on record at the Bloody Sunday inquiry as never asking his colleague McGuiness what he was doing as part of the IRA delegation for the 1972 talks. Presumably he never asked Gerry Adams either. He is clearly the prototype of SFs new wave of supporters – either very stupid, or very naïve.

Despite this he is one of the more respectable faces of SFs leadership – has even gone on record as claiming that SF want to get rid of the IRA. May want to include the disclaimer: sometime, in the undefined future.

Gerry Kelly, Belfast:
Given life sentence in 1973 for killing 1 person and injuring 250 in bomb attacks in England.

Escaped from the maze prison in 1983, one prison warder died after being stabbed with a chisel. Kelly shot another in the head. Escaped to Amsterdam where he was recaptured in 1986. His flat contained cash, fake passport, maps and the keys to a container that held 14 rifles, 100,000 rounds of ammunition and about a ton of nitro-benzine.

Has spent 19 years in prison. Served only a short sentence after his extradition from Holland due to conditions on the extradition.

Has stated he has no regrets about the death of the prison officer who died during the escape from the Maze.

Martin McGuiness, Derry:
2nd in command of the IRA in Derry from the early 70s. Travelled as part of the IRA delegation that secretly met with NI secretary Whitelaw in 1972.

Imprisoned several times in the Republic in connection with IRA activities but has always denied he ever became Chief of Staff for the IRA, despite many claims to the contrary. Renowned for promising informers who had fled IRA threats that they would be safe if they returned and had a little chat with the boys.

Persuaded Frank Hegartys mother to get him home to Belfast with a promise of safety – within two weeks he was abducted, tortured, murdered and dumped in Castlederg, Country Tyrone.

Francie Molloy, Tyrone:
Stated on November 22nd 1998 at an address to Cullyhana republican , that ‘negotiations is simply another phase in that [republican] struggle’ and if the IRA did not get what they wanted at the talks ‘we simply go back to what we know best’

Note that its him saying we, not me. He may need to receive further education in Sfspeak and brush up on his naivety before he’s allowed to speak in public again.

Arnie O'Connell, Cork:

Served 18 years in Portlaoise for the murder of Eamonn Ryan, during a bank robbery in Waterford, 1979. Also charged with membership of the PIRA and armed robbery arising from the same incident.

At the commemoration of Hugh Hehir in 1997, a fellow IRA man shot dead by Garda Special Branch in 1988, he stated that there will be no decommissioning until the British leave Ireland.

Martin Ferris, Kerry:
Convicted of gun running, IRA membership and assault.







Okay, a lot of reading there because theres a lot of heavily suspected and convicted IRA murderers who are now high ranking members of Sinn Fein and form their leadership.

Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter - when it walks like duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its is a ****ing duck. Ive copied and saved the above into a word file so every time I hear the "oh but how do you know SF and the IRA are one and the same!??!?!?!?" then Ill be able to paste it for the education of teenage IRA fan boys everywhere.

Are a lot of Irish parties historically linked to militant movements - yes, in their *past*. That is not the case with SF - the IRA is very much a part of SFs *present and future*.

That is the problem - this is not the 1920s. Were not turning back the clock for SF/IRA because theyre not ready to catch up with the rest of the civillised world. They have to match the standards of 21st century democracy, not the early 19th. Whatever about corruption in politics, private armies and crinimal thugs are a definite no-no.

I will "bash" them again and again and again until they cut all links to the IRA or the IRA disbands, whichever occurs first because I do not want a terrorist movement in Government or in the Dail.

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter - when it walks like duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its is a ****ing duck. Ive copied and saved the above into a word file so every time I hear the "oh but how do you know SF and the IRA are one and the same!??!?!?!?" then Ill be able to paste it for the education of teenage IRA fan boys everywhere.

Don't you mean SF fan boys ....

And as I think Martin McGuiness said "dogs on the street know...."

Villain

Originally posted by Sand
Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter - when it walks like duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck....its is a ****ing duck.

I find that offensive and demand you withdraw it, insulting people is the lowest form of debating.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1
I find that offensive and demand you withdraw it, insulting people is the lowest form of debating.

Well you did ask...
There appears to be so much shít in and around the Sinn Féin Fan , maybe you shouldn't have turned it on...


I don't see any poster insulted there, just maybe Sinn Féin voters who are prepared to ignore what sand has posted...( just like some FF Voters ignore some things ) and then no more so that I'd see Fianna Fáil insulted as a party on an almost daily basis here or any other party for that matter.

To put it another way " whats the matter honey-is the kitchen getting too hot for you? "

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Well you did ask...
There appears to be so much shít in and around the Sinn Féin Fan , maybe you shouldn't have turned it on...


I don't see any poster insulted there, just maybe Sinn Féin voters who are prepared to ignore what sand has posted...( just like some FF Voters ignore some things ) and then no more so that I'd see Fianna Fáil insulted as a party on an almost daily basis here or any other party for that matter.

To put it another way " whats the matter honey-is the kitchen getting too hot for you? "

So you believe Sand's post shows that the IRA and Sinn Fein are the one organisation??? and that Sinn Fein are terrorists???

I'm well able for the heat, however I'm also able to argue my points without insulting people, unlike others.

ReefBreak

Excellent post by Sand. I can't believe that I forgot state to Irish1 that Martin McGuinness has actually admitted to membership of the IRA in the past. Ditto with Gerry Kelly and Joe Cahill. Sometimes you miss the wood, when you're looking for the trees (or in this case a few links to prove my point).

Mighty_Mouse

To which irish asked for some details or corrected you and asking you to distinguish between the IRA and Sinn Fein. The question still remains

You've quoted me out of context there Sand but don't lose sleep over it your post still remains valid enough.

then Ill be able to paste it for the education of teenage IRA fan boys everywhere.

Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter

I often find myself asking why anti-republicans resort to bitterness and abuse when trying to convince people of their points!! I mean if you were to remain civil every now and then maybe somebody might even listen to you!!!

I will "bash" them again and again and again until they cut all links to the IRA or the IRA disbands,

Wow! Where have you been for the last 30 years Sand. Thats all the norths problems solved right there!!

Are a lot of Irish parties historically linked to militant movements - yes, in their *past*. That is not the case with SF - the IRA is very much a part of SFs *present and future*.

So Fianna Fail didn't have links with terrorism in their "present" when they moved into government?

Ive seen this time and time again, the wilful ignorance and refusal to see the truth

I constantly shocked by the nievity of anti-republicans! Sand, your post is lovely.... (if you throw enough muck?)... but I have to wonder who exactly do you think your shocking?"Stupid Sinn Fein" voters know the links with the IRA I presume! But at the same time they accept the commitment of the IRA to peaceful means and the policies of Sinn Fein in their political role.

I always have to smile as anti-republicans slap down their accusations and truths with fiercesome morality only for a republicans to say "sure we know ya eegit!", "but were happy with Sinn Feins current role in the north and south".

I find that offensive and demand you withdraw it, insulting people is the lowest form of debating.

Your looking for people to "withdraw things again Irish!! I think if your offended by something... take it to a mod.

Excellent post by Sand. I can't believe that I forgot state to Irish1 that Martin McGuinness has actually admitted to membership of the IRA in the past. Ditto with Gerry Kelly and Joe Cahill. Sometimes you miss the wood, when you're looking for the trees (or in this case a few links to prove my point).

You forgot!!! lol lol!! But even if you remembered..........so what! I mean are people shocked by the fact that these men are now committed to peaceful means? Or should we never move on to stabilise the northern situation and incorporate all members of society into the political process?

Sorry I almost forgot to say something on the different organisations argument! Is Sand saying that Sinn Fein "control" the IRA or that they have influence due to their links? The latter has never been debatable.

On a final note...am I the only person here who actually knows about the war in Northern Ireland?

Villain

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Excellent post by Sand. I can't believe that I forgot state to Irish1 that Martin McGuinness has actually admitted to membership of the IRA in the past. Ditto with Gerry Kelly and Joe Cahill. Sometimes you miss the wood, when you're looking for the trees (or in this case a few links to prove my point).

The word in Bold is the most important word in that post.

And Mighty Mouse I have reported that post, he called the average SF voter stupid and I am a Sinn Fein voter, and I don't like being called stupid, but thanks for your input:D

Agent Orange

Wasn't this topic discussed not so long ago?

Only an idiot can't or won't see that Sinn Féin and the IRA are inextricably linked. Always have, are and will be.

A vote for Sinn Féin is a vote for people who support the murder and torture of innocent civilians.

Up until recently SF were selling t-shirts with logos such as 'sniper at work' and 'IRA - undefeated army' logos. Have a look for yourself, courtesy of archive.org:
http://web.archive.org/web/20030724113106/www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/en-us/dept_20.html

I have no doubt that if the SF voters was living in the UK they would be voting BNP. Their prejudices blind them to the violence these organisations implicitly support.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
So Fianna Fail didn't have links with terrorism in their "present" when they moved into government?

Any of them ever convicted of terrorism?
Show us some evidence if you too are going to start throwing muck...
The current lot now, not the ones of 60 years or 30 years ago as it's the current lot you are accusing...
Whats sauce for the Goose...(...is sauce for the gander...)

I constantly shocked by the nievity of anti-republicans! Sand, your post is lovely.... (if you throw enough muck?)... but I have to wonder who exactly do you think your shocking?"Stupid Sinn Fein" voters know the links with the IRA I presume! But at the same time they accept the commitment of the IRA to peaceful means and the policies of Sinn Fein in their political role.

Well thats funny...
On this thread SF supporters ask for evidence that current SF members were murderers as if there weren't any...
Yet when it's provided you say it doesn't matter.
That signifies an unwillingness to debate through ignoring awkward answers.

To be honest I find sweeping murderous acts under the carpet like SF supporters expect to be done even more shocking.
It should be all out in the open.
Indeed SF supporters should be openly saying that of their leaders.
Is it not something in your version of Irish culture to be proud of rather than be ashamed of?

After all pretending they don't exist as ye have done in this thread and others indicates some kind of shame...
Stand up like men and declare what some of ye have done after all if it is so acceptable then why hide it?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Well thats funny...
On this thread SF supporters ask for evidence that current SF members were murderers as if there weren't any...
Yet when it's provided you say it doesn't matter.
That signifies an unwillingness to debate through ignoring awkward answers.

Agreed. In fact, it just about sums up every Shinner on this board. It's also closely related to the fact that the Shinners demand public inquiries into the misdeeds perpetrated against them (Finucane, Nelson), yet ask everyone to forget their own, and put it in the past. It's sickening hypocrisy of the worst kind.

Similiarly, watching Caoimhin O'Caolain being interviewed outside the Inquiry into Dublin & Monaghan Bombings made me want to vomit. He and every other Sinn Féin member/supporter have a nerve to show their faces at that inquiry.

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Any of them ever convicted of terrorism?
Show us some evidence if you too are going to start throwing muck...
The current lot now, not the ones of 60 years or 30 years ago as it's the current lot you are accusing...
Whats sauce for the Goose...(...is sauce for the gander...)

Well thats funny...
On this thread SF supporters ask for evidence that current SF members were murderers as if there weren't any...
Yet when it's provided you say it doesn't matter.
That signifies an unwillingness to debate through ignoring awkward answers.

To be honest I find sweeping murderous acts under the carpet like SF supporters expect to be done even more shocking.
It should be all out in the open.
Indeed SF supporters should be openly saying that of their leaders.
Is it not something in your version of Irish culture to be proud of rather than be ashamed of?

After all pretending they don't exist as ye have done in this thread and others indicates some kind of shame...
Stand up like men and declare what some of ye have done after all if it is so acceptable then why hide it?

I have said it many times that I accept what has happened in the past, however I don't live in the past, I have not avoided any questions that were asked of me.

If you choose not to vote for SF because of their past thats you right, however its not your right to tell me who or what I shouldn't vote because of what has happened in the past, I really do think some people would rather the IRA wasn't on a ceasefire and hadn't decommisioned any weapons and that SF were a terrorist group rather than a political group that way they wouldn't have to worry about them in Irish politics.

Mighty_Mouse

I have no doubt that if the SF voters was living in the UK they would be voting BNP. Their prejudices blind them to the violence these organisations implicitly support.

Sinn Fein are for an incusive, equal society. They say it about every 3 seconds and were opposed to the referendum so I don't know where this BNP craic comes from.

It's also closely related to the fact that the Shinners demand public inquiries into the misdeeds perpetrated against them (Finucane, Nelson), yet ask everyone to forget their own, and put it in the past

I think you more than a little comfused. You repeatedly make the same accusation but never ever listen to the reply. Republicans have not opposed similar investigations into murders of protestants etc but it's not their priority to persue them. Sinn Fein is seeking justice for republian innocent victims murdered by the state. I fail to see what investigating state murders is different to saying that the IRA has proven its committed to peaceful means. Do you see a problem with investigating the murders of Rosemary Nelson, Pat Finuicance and the Dublin bombings? I'm afraid I just can't follow your logic which disagrees.

Any of them ever convicted of terrorism?
Show us some evidence if you too are going to start throwing muck...?

..cough..:eek: Dev, Collins, W.T Cosgrave, Cathal Brugha, Arthur Griffith............etc etc

The current lot now, not the ones of 60 years or 30 years ago as it's the current lot you are accusing...

I'm sorry, have you mis-read me again Rockclimber. Take it slowly and come back to me.

On this thread SF supporters ask for evidence that current SF members were murderers as if there weren't any...

I can only speak for myself here. I would claim to have a pretty good knowledge of Sinn Feins history past and present and don't have a problem voting for them. I can't be responsible for other posters in here, my sincere apolgies!!!

That signifies an unwillingness to debate through ignoring awkward answers.

What awkward question have I avoided. I think were getting into an old debate here Rockclimber and it seems you still like to make you accusations "wild and often" . Fire me out an example while your at it.

To be honest I find sweeping murderous acts under the carpet like SF supporters expect to be done even more shocking.

Your easily shocked. Again am I the only preson who recognises that we've just come through a war in northern ireland!! Would you prefer if fighting communities didn't turn to peaceful means?

It should be all out in the open

what?

Is it not something in your version of Irish culture to be proud of rather than be ashamed of?

You mean your version of history and your version of whats shameful, surely?

After all pretending they don't exist as ye have done in this thread and others indicates some kind of shame

oops look likes you've done it again Rocky!! Where was the pretense?

Stand up like men and declare what some of ye have done after all if it is so acceptable then why hide it?

is that an order, sir? It seems you've only recently read the history of the IRA Rockclimber or you seem to believe that Sands dated muck throwing experiment has revealed some secret information to you?

So once again........a war...people involved.....now want peace.....democracy........civil rights .......how can a state move from war to peace without including those involved in both?

ionapaul

I suppose another question dividing us posters here is:
'Was the armed struggle/war/terrorism in the North conducted by republicans during the past 30 years justified or not?'
Obviously the Sinn Fein voters see it as justified, while many of us do not. Because I don't believe most Sinn Fein voters actually, honestly, really believe that Sinn Fein has completely repudiated violence as a method of achieving their goals - that is why some posters have stated Sinn Fein voters are naive or whatever, whereas I just think they go along with the party line with regards the ceasefire and in their hearts believe that the violent struggle was, and still could be, justified.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ionapaul
I suppose another question dividing us posters here is:
'Was the armed struggle/war/terrorism in the North conducted by republicans during the past 30 years justified or not?'

If you believe that Catholics should be treated as second class (at best) citizens, denied equal (or any) rights and opportunites, and beaten to a bloody pulp by a paramilitary police force, then it was not justified. You cannot ignore the "political" climate in the six counties at the time when the Provisional IRA were formed. That does not excuse in any way some of the atrocities carried out by that organisation either, but are we living in the past or looking to the future? Protestants aren't the only ones who are being urged to leave the past behind you know.

ionapaul

As I may have mentioned on a previous thread, I have a masters in history and as such just cannot leave the past behind me That's where I live most of the time!
I suppose I find it hard to forgive and simply can't forget...

Villain

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
but are we living in the past or looking to the future? Protestants aren't the only ones who are being urged to leave the past behind you know.

Ah but if people want to move on and look to the future they have to accept SF as a political party who are committed to the Peace Process, something people here can't accept. But as I have said they can live in the past and bash SF till the cows come home, in the mean time SF will continue to progress.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Agent Orange

A vote for Sinn Féin is a vote for people who support the murder and torture of innocent civilians.

I have no doubt that if the SF voters was living in the UK they would be voting BNP. Their prejudices blind them to the violence these organisations implicitly support.

A vote for Fianna Fáil is a vote for people who support corruption and tax evasion.

I have no doubt that if the FF/PD voters was (sic) living in the UK they would be voting BNP.