Willy O'Dea's reply to Sinn Féin criticism

ReefBreak

Originally posted by irish1
Ah but if people want to move on and look to the future they have to accept SF as a political party who are committed to the Peace Process, something people here can't accept. But as I have said they can live in the past and bash SF till the cows come home, in the mean time SF will continue to progress.

You don't seem to get it Irish1. I would like to accept SF as a political party. If they were a true political party, I wouldn't be typing this. But, (and I'll put this next bit in big and bold for you, so that you'll understand), I will not accept Sinn Féin as a political party while they are still linked to an armed terrorist organisation*.

* That is also allegedly involved in punishment beatings, smuggling and racketeering. Funny how the punishment beatings stopped in the run up to the last local and general elections, but started again soon after.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
A vote for Fianna Fáil is a vote for people who support corruption and tax evasion.

I have no doubt that if the FF/PD voters was (sic) living in the UK they would be voting BNP.

Of course the difference between FF and Sinn Féin is that members are expelled from Fianna Fáil when found guilty of corruption of tax evasion (as the recent Beverly Cooper-Flynn debacle showed). In Sinn Féin, you could have a history of blowing up innocent men, women and children in a pub, or shooting a prison officer in the head, and the worst that could happen to you is that you get promoted.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
You don't seem to get it Irish1. I would like to accept SF as a political party. If they were a true political party, I wouldn't be typing this. But, (and I'll put this next bit in big and bold for you, so that you'll understand), I will not accept Sinn Féin as a political party while they are still linked to an armed terrorist organisation*.

* That is also allegedly involved in punishment beatings, smuggling and racketeering. Funny how the punishment beatings stopped in the run up to the last local and general elections, but started again soon after.

Thankfully, our wonderful democratic system accepts their mandate rather than your say-so. I doubt Gerry Adams & co. will lose sleep over your decision to vote elsewhere.

If you have evidence of this alleged punishment beating pattern, then do post it for us.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
Now lets not be as stupid or as innocent as the average SF voter

No, lets instead try and be polite and recognise that just because someone does not see the connections in the same light as you do doesn't make them stupid or innocent.

There are a myriad of views which one can hold, from outright, blind rabid condemnation of anyone and everything remotely connected (which we see here), to absolute acceptance and support for the same (which we also see here) and everything in between.

What absolutely cracks me up is that the people who are most intolerant of anything which can be remotely connected to the IRA are entirely ignoring the fact that any solution in the North will only ever come through compromise (or, to be pedantic, the utter annihilation of one side by the other).

Compromise doesn't mean that the IRA and Sinn Fein must do everything you think they should before they can be allowed take part in the move towards peace. It doesn't mean that those who support them should automatically be ridiculed and insulted simply because they are willing to take what they see as teh least worst option that is actually available in order to get somewhere.

I find it hilarious, Sand, that when defending the US' actions, you admit they ain't perfect, but that we shouldn't get carried away with the begrudgery and criuticism because they are the best and often only option we have.

I'd ask you why you aren't applying the same logic here? Sure, criticise and look for improvements.....but refusing to have anything to do with the best/only option available on one side of the divide would appear to be taking the exact stance that you ridicule as being nothing but blind anti-Americanism when its targetted at the US.

jc

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Thankfully, our wonderful democratic system accepts their mandate rather than your say-so. I doubt Gerry Adams & co. will lose sleep over your decision to vote elsewhere.

Our wonderful democratic system also states (through the constitution) that there can only be one army in the state, something that Sinn Fein/IRA prefers to ignore when it suits them. On other occastions it suits them to refer to the constitution: such as whenever a Shinner harps on about Irish Neutrality, "as enshrined in the constitution." Sickening in it's hypocrisy.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
In Sinn Féin, you could have a history of blowing up innocent men, women and children in a pub, or shooting a prison officer in the head, and the worst that could happen to you is that you get promoted.

You could have? That's pretty vague as usual, no doubt to escuse your lack (again) of any evidence.

What usually happens is that someone is tried (without a jury and often any credible evidence), convicted and sentenced for whatever they were accused of, study politics/history in prison, and come out and join SF.

ReefBreak

You could have? That's pretty vague as usual, no doubt to escuse your lack (again) of any evidence.

"shooting a prison officer in the head". Gerry Kelly. See Sand's post above.
Convicted of Arms Smuggling - Martin Ferris.
And just two off the top of my head.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Our wonderful democratic system also states (through the constitution) that there can only be one army in the state, something that Sinn Fein/IRA prefers to ignore when it suits them. On other occastions it suits them to refer to the constitution: such as whenever a Shinner harps on about Irish Neutrality, "as enshrined in the constitution." Sickening in it's hypocrisy.

Tell me, did you manage to keep a straight face when you typed "Sickening in it's hypocrisy"?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Tell me, did you manage to keep a straight face when you typed "Sickening in it's hypocrisy"?

Sinn Féin debating technique #1: devert the answer to any questions you don't like.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
"shooting a prison officer in the head". Gerry Kelly. See Sand's post above.
Convicted of Arms Smuggling - Martin Ferris.
And just two off the top of my head.

Gerry Kelly was in prison for his alleged role in a bombing in which an elderly man died of a heart attack. He wasn't convicted of murder nor was he convicted of shooting a prison officer.

And while we're on the subject of arms smuggling....*ahem* FF anyone?

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Our wonderful democratic system also states (through the constitution) that there can only be one army in the state, something that Sinn Fein/IRA prefers to ignore when it suits them. On other occastions it suits them to refer to the constitution: such as whenever a Shinner harps on about Irish Neutrality, "as enshrined in the constitution." Sickening in it's hypocrisy.

I'm pretty sure that our constitution is also ignored in the six counties.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Sinn Féin debating technique #1: devert the answer to any questions you don't like.

Well how about you address the point I just made about accepting that compromise is going to have to be part of the road to peace....not capitaulation-named-as-compromise by the people you don't like, but genuine compromise.

Explain to me how I'm wrong, or how your attitude of complete and utter condemnation of everything SF/IRA related with no hint of compromise in your stance fits in with a chance of actually ever achieving peace?

After all...you wouldn't want to dodge the question, now...that would be a SF tactic.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
I'm pretty sure that our constitution is also ignored in the six counties.

I'm also pretty sure there's an army up there far larger and more capable than the IRA that our government doesn't do much about either.

I think they call it the British Armed Forces or something.

jc

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by bonkey
I'm also pretty sure there's an army up there far larger and more capable than the IRA that our government doesn't do much about either.

I think they call it the British Armed Forces or something.

jc

I'm also certain that they have never declared a ceasefire, and that they have a habit of promoting murderers.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by bonkey
Well how about you address the point I just made about accepting that compromise is going to have to be part of the road to peace....not capitaulation-named-as-compromise by the people you don't like, but genuine compromise.

Explain to me how I'm wrong, or how your attitude of complete and utter condemnation of everything SF/IRA related with no hint of compromise in your stance fits in with a chance of actually ever achieving peace?

After all...you wouldn't want to dodge the question, now...that would be a SF tactic.

jc

When the peace process started out, and for the first few years afterwards, I applauded it. But it's been 6 years now, how much compromise do the IRA expect to receive before they disarm and disband? I understand the Sinn Féin leadership are after peace, but it appears to me that they only want peace on their own terms. I also believe that not murdering innocent men, women and children should not be considered a compromise - it's the way civilised people should behave in a civilised society.

Sand

I find that offensive and demand you withdraw it, insulting people is the lowest form of debating.

No. Stop dodging issues with false offence. Im sick of SF speak.

So you believe Sand's post shows that the IRA and Sinn Fein are the one organisation??? and that Sinn Fein are terrorists???

Yes. I believe that most of the northern old guard, if not all either served an apprenticeship in the IRAs armed wing, before graduating into the political and PR front. Ive shown this with my post, If you missed it the first time Ill copy and paste it again for your benefit.

Mighty Mouse sneers that everyone voting for SF knows that IRA are one and the same - who am I shocking? This after SF supporter after SF supporter complaining about people using the term SF/IRA, demanding proof from other posters when they say IRA and SF are one and the same. Im glad we got that settled finally, you might want to have a chat with Irish1 whilst your at it.

With that settled I dont want some the political front for a gang of murdering, thieving, cheating, brutalising thugs in office. And every time you vote for them youre saying - SF are the front for the murders of mothers of 10 children? So what!!! SF are the front for people engaging in racketeering, armed robbery and organised crime? So what!!! SF are the front for thugs tormenting and mutilating kids who made the mistake of getting in a fight with a IRA mans brat? So what!!!

Thats fine, you support all of the above. At least were clear on that.

And Mighty Mouse I have reported that post, he called the average SF voter stupid and I am a Sinn Fein voter, and I don't like being called stupid, but thanks for your input

Oh crap, oh sorry - I didnt think it would get this far, oh damn, my god, Ive offended Irish 1 and his reported me to a mod, Ill go run a cold bath and drown myself in it as I cant live with the stress this has brought on after I finish sobbing with fear at my desk.

Ahum.

What did you guys think....too sarcastic, not sarcastic enough, just right?

That signifies an unwillingness to debate through ignoring awkward answers.

Were talking about SF here, the people who cant say "cond....conde....condemn!!!", who dont want to engage in the politics of that tricky C word. Are you really surprised?

I really do think some people would rather the IRA wasn't on a ceasefire and hadn't decommisioned any weapons and that SF were a terrorist group rather than a political group that way they wouldn't have to worry about them in Irish politics.

Id rather the IRA disbanded and republicans entered the political process honestly rather than this sham, where they abuse the system only so far as it benefits them, continue with organised crime and violence and are ready at any time to return to murder should it suit them.

I know, setting too high a standard there for the IRA and their fanboys amnt I?

So Fianna Fail didn't have links with terrorism in their "present" when they moved into government?

Here we have demonstrated the SF voters graps of history. So busy are they re writing their own that they havent got much time to keep up with other parties history. DeValera formed Fianna Fail, as a constitutional republican party, leaving Sinn Fein and rejecting their policy of armed struggle and disgusted with their refusal to take their seats in the Dail for which a civil war was fought.

FF has never been connected to the IRA, if anything it was formed by Dev as part of a rejection of the IRA and militant republicanism. This was bourne out by the internement of IRA men by Devs FF government and the tough stance he took against militant republicans.

SF has not made the clean break with the IRA and militant republicanism that the FF party did when they took the oath to the crown and entered the Dail. So either grab a history book or stop trying to smear the distinctions between constitutional politics and SF/IRAs opportunist politics.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by ReefBreak
When the peace process started out, and for the first few years afterwards, I applauded it. But it's been 6 years now, how much compromise do the IRA expect to receive before they disarm and disband? I understand the Sinn Féin leadership are after peace, but it appears to me that they only want peace on their own terms. I also believe that not murdering innocent men, women and children should not be considered a compromise - it's the way civilised people should behave in a civilised society.

What terms are they supposed to be doing it under? Ian Paisley's? Tony Blair's? Get real - obviously they want it on their own terms - and by definition, a peace process is there to help everyone reach an acceptable solution.

What other armed groups have disarmed or disbanded? None.
The Provisional IRA are the only group who have taken part in the decommissioning process.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
But it's been 6 years now, how much compromise do the IRA expect to receive before they disarm and disband?

Well, my understanding was that they expected to receive the amount of compromise that they signed up to, for a start.

Take the deChastelaine disarmament fiasco. The Unionists sign up, the IRA (after much prompting and prodding, I admit) follow their requirements to the letter, only to be ridiculed and lambasted by the Unionists who decried their actions as meaningless and unacceptable.

I understand the Sinn Féin leadership are after peace, but it appears to me that they only want peace on their own terms.

And that makes them different (better or worse) to anyone else in the North of Ireland at the moment exactly how?

I also believe that not murdering innocent men, women and children should not be considered a compromise - it's the way civilised people should behave in a civilised society.

Yup...but unfortunately, by that classification of civilised, we must accept that Northern Ireland is attempting to become civilised for the first time in hundreds of years. Its not fair to hold them to the same standards as a nation which has any significant history of being civilised and saying "this is the yardstick you must reach before you can even be considered to be getting anywhere" surely?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you, Sand, or anyone should let up on being critical for a second. After all, my major criticism of teh US is that while they may be the best game in town they are not good enough. But continuous criticism that reads along the lines of "Sinn Fein, I'd never get tired of kicking them and will never pass up the opportunity" doesn't really come across that way.

Maybe its just how I'm reading it though.

jc

Hobbes

Reefbreak since the good friday agreement how many deaths have been to the IRA. How many to the others?

Or prehaps you also forget that FF were also caught out giving arms to the IRA.. oh wait it was only Haughey. but following your logic it would imply that all of FF are terrorists.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Sand
Id rather the IRA disbanded and republicans entered the political process honestly rather than this sham, where they abuse the system only so far as it benefits them, continue with organised crime and violence and are ready at any time to return to murder should it suit them.

I know, setting too high a standard there for the IRA and their fanboys amnt I?

I'm sure the vast majority of people would like to see the IRA disbanded - but realistically it will not happen when there are Loyalist death squads roaming the streets of the six counties - North Belfast in particular. Maybe you would prefer a return to the 1950's where we pretend that it's not happening until it's too late?

Your standards appear to be away with the fairies just like Michael McDowell's.

Mighty_Mouse

Mighty Mouse sneers that everyone voting for SF knows that IRA are one and the same - who am I shocking?

Did I? um Would you be kind enough to point out where? I know it must bring you out in a rash to read a republicans post but if you intend to respong to them its the least you could do!

Let me clear things up for you. Everyone knows the attrocitys that happened on both sides during the Troubles (which you've typically decided to start posting). The IRA commited attrocities, many members of Sinn Fein (in the north in particular) were members of the IRA. So the links are there but are you still saying that Sinn Fein ARE the IRA? Surely you must realise that different people are in control of both (even by your shabby Sunday World like post previously). Therefore their different organisations. Its pretty clear to me and I don't even have a problem with the IRA.

ith that settled I dont want ...

Come on Sand just tackle what I'm saying. No need to resort to fiction. For God's Sake I find myself sitting here wondering why people don't ask certain "rational" questions!!

Were talking about SF here, the people who cant say "cond....conde....condemn!!!",

Refusal to condem the IRA shows avoidence of tricky issues!! How exactly? What would republicans condemming one another do for the cause?

Id rather the IRA disbanded and republicans entered the political process honestly rather than this sham, where they abuse the system only so far as it benefits them, continue with organised crime and violence and are ready at any time to return to murder should it suit them.

I'm sure everyone would. Then again, your little ideal world doesnt exist. Think of a Peace PROCESS.

But it's been 6 years now, how much compromise do the IRA expect to receive before they disarm and disband?

What they signed up for I presume. Also for the millionth time explain your solution to decommissioning , oh pretty please!

Hobbes

One thing O'Dea fails to realise as well that a lot of people who voted for SF recently did so as a protest vote.

(Mentioned it before) one person I know couldn't tell you anything about SF policies and couldn't give a toss either. But he voted SF as a big F.U. to FF.

SF would be wise to see if they can do a better job then FF.

Villain

Originally posted by Sand
No. Stop dodging issues with false offence. Im sick of SF speak.

What issue have I dodged with false offence????

Originally posted by Sand

Oh crap, oh sorry - I didnt think it would get this far, oh damn, my god, Ive offended Irish 1 and his reported me to a mod, Ill go run a cold bath and drown myself in it as I cant live with the stress this has brought on after I finish sobbing with fear at my desk..

If you want to debate the issues I'm more than willing to, but if your going to resort to childish name calling etc you can leave me out of it. I follow the rules here and I think you should do the same

Originally posted by Sand

Id rather the IRA disbanded and republicans entered the political process honestly rather than this sham, where they abuse the system only so far as it benefits them, continue with organised crime and violence and are ready at any time to return to murder should it suit them

You obviously don't understand the GFA and the peace process up North. The IRA have decommisioned a very large ammount of weapons but the Unionists won't accept it because they don't have makes, models etc!!

ionapaul

I bet no-one here has moved one inch in their various positions on this topic since the beginning of the thread Once you hit your mid or late 20s and have made up your mind on something, you rarely change it.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Sand

Mighty Mouse sneers that everyone voting for SF knows that IRA are one and the same - who am I shocking? This after SF supporter after SF supporter complaining about people using the term SF/IRA, demanding proof from other posters when they say IRA and SF are one and the same. Im glad we got that settled finally, you might want to have a chat with Irish1 whilst your at it.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Did I? um Would you be kind enough to point out where? I know it must bring you out in a rash to read a republicans post but if you intend to respong to them its the least you could do!

here Mighty_Mouse on page three specifically...

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
"Stupid Sinn Fein" voters know the links with the IRA I presume! But at the same time they accept the commitment of the IRA to peaceful means and the policies of Sinn Fein in their political role.

At least remember what you posted in this thread before forgetting it two pages later...

Oh maybe thats nothing new because at the start of this thread people were asked to prove that IRA murderers were members of Sinn Féin as if it couldn't be the case...
And then when it's done, It's a case of So what!!
Lovely hurling:rolleyes:

Villain

Originally posted by ionapaul
I bet no-one here has moved one inch in their various positions on this topic since the beginning of the thread Once you hit your mid or late 20s and have made up your mind on something, you rarely change it.

I haven't hit that age bracket yet, so maybe I'm still open minded!!! or maybe not.

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Oh maybe thats nothing new because at the start of this thread people were asked to prove that IRA murderers were members of Sinn Féin as if it couldn't be the case...
And then when it's done, It's a case of So what!!
Lovely hurling:rolleyes:

Who said it couldnt be the case, I simply asked for evidence that SF were terrorists and murderers, all I got was a few people who were in the past convicted of crimes and since have served their time and now turned to the Peace Process.

SF are a political group, anyone who calls them Terrorists or murderers is incorrect.

NinjaBart

rockclimber surely you can tell the difference between 'links to' and 'one and the same' before makin an eejit of yurself with a sneery reply

ionapaul

To be fair, once you have murdered someone, I think we can all agree you remain a murderer until you die! Otherwise...'yeah, I blew up some children a few years ago, but that was then and this is now...can I work in this day-care centre?'

Right? Now if you don't consider it murder, fair enough, that's your choice - the difference between murder and 'lawful/legal/moral/whatever' killing is what separates those of us on different sides here it seems.

Mighty_Mouse

At least remember what you posted in this thread before forgetting it two pages later...

And once again I have to ask Rockclimber to re-read something. Now take it slowly Rockclimber and have your "oxford" at the ready like a good girl!

Also read the bit where I was replying to Sand's statement which said I accepted that the IRA and Sinn Fein were one and the same.

Wow this stuff gets more and more frustrating!