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Willy O'Dea's reply to Sinn Féin criticism
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Do you really have to be that snide? The evil tricks of the debating trade (sarcasm, snideness and so on) can be quite appropriate at times but three times in a single sentence just makes the typist look a bit whingey (I'm typing whingey but I'm thinking kid with rattle). The rest of of us read this too you know and in my view as an ordinary reader, you're not doing your case any favours above. Just a comment, I'm not a Politics mod and I'm not pretending to be.Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Now take it slowly Rockclimber and have your "oxford" at the ready like a good girl!0 -
Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Now take it slowly Rockclimber and have your "oxford" at the ready like a good girl!
...
Wow this stuff gets more and more frustrating!
Well, have a week off to calm down then. You've been around long enough to know better.
jc0 -
Originally posted by irish1
Who said it couldnt be the case, I simply asked for evidence that SF were terrorists and murderers, all I got was a few people who were in the past convicted of crimes and since have served their time and now turned to the Peace Process.
SF are a political group, anyone who calls them Terrorists or murderers is incorrect.
SF and the IRA are pretty well linked.
SF are a political group with an illegal army.0 -
Originally posted by Cork
SF and the IRA are pretty well linked.
SF are a political group with an illegal army.
Thats great logic, so in your opinion SF and the IRA are PRETTY WELL linked, and SF are a political group with an illegal army.
Well if SF and the IRA in your opinion are only PRETTY WELL linked, the IRA mustn't be their private army, so who is???
Cork, I really do wonder if your able to discuss this topic at all, you say the same things over and over, get a new hymn sheet:rolleyes:0 -
What is mant by the SF stratergy of the "armalite and the ballot box"?
Are SF honestly now trying to airbrush their links to the IRA.
As a political party - Why did the SF not condemn acts like Warrington?
Yet SF has had zero problems getting into the politics of condmnation on many other subjects.0 -
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There are a lot of very inteligent people with that view.It's something SF supporters should take as read really as to try to counter it is as impossible as getting a copy of Gerry Adams resignation letter from the IRA.Originally posted by irish1
Thats great logic, so in your opinion SF and the IRA are PRETTY WELL linked, and SF are a political group with an illegal army.
Sand posted about an IRA gang member who named Gerry as her officer in command.
Now as I see it Irish1 you have stated over and over that you have taken the great leap of accepting that people who have either murdered or condoned murder in the past can wield power in government.
But you have got to accept that there are at least at present an overwhelming majority of people on this island who will not accept this.
They were prepared to make a special circumstance in NI given the more widespread approval of violence there and the sectarian split within that society.
In the 26 counties however, there is no sectarian split in society and most certainly there was never anything other than a tiny minority support for the IRA.
People here took several decades to forgive the violence of the early 20th century and It's going to take the same for to happen with SF.
That won't stop SF growing , but it will arrest it's growth potential.
There is a huge difference between the Voters of the North and the Voters of the South.
The dynamic that SF can avail of in the North is the sectarian devide.
First past the post means that you must vote for the candidate on your side of the fence that is most likely to win and increasingly also the candidate that most písses off your sectarian neighbour.
SF don't have that dynamic in the South, most people will associate them with a bully boy private army ( whether you agree with that or not )
The only dynamic SF have in the South are a protest vote and then the marginalised.
After that they are fighting for the votes of better off people who make up the majority of the country and they generally vote with their pockets.
That doesn't attract them to socialism.
That means Fine Gael( who aren't SF friendly) and Labour coalitions and then FF pd coalitions are the norm unless we lose the near full employment that we have at the moment and slip into high unemployment and recession which would be the only way that I could see the current affluent majority voting for socialism here and its not very likely in my view.0 -
What other armed groups have disarmed or disbanded? None.
How many milititant parties have enjoyed SFs electoral success? People are concerned by the possiblity that a political front for a terrorist group could impact on the governing of a liberal democracy.I'm sure the vast majority of people would like to see the IRA disbanded - but realistically it will not happen when there are Loyalist death squads roaming the streets of the six counties
Irish people and Catholics in particular are in far more danger from the IRA than from loyalist deathsquads. Of the 1800 or so people the IRA have murdered, 1400 were Irish. No organisation, including the UVF, the British Army or the UFF has killed more Catholics than the IRA.
http://www.cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.plReefbreak since the good friday agreement how many deaths have been to the IRA. How many to the others?
Depends on whether you consider the Real IRA to be IRA. Does it mean anything that the RIRA was founded by IRA men, staffed by IRA men, used IRA equipment and enjoyed the protection of the IRA from the police, even after Omagh when republicans refused to co-operate with the investigation - most likely because deep down republicans couldnt see the problem with Omagh....wasnt that what they had been doing for years?The IRA commited attrocities, many members of Sinn Fein (in the north in particular) were members of the IRA. So the links are there but are you still saying that Sinn Fein ARE the IRA? Surely you must realise that different people are in control of both
Nope, 4 members of the IRA army council are SF political leaders. So SF has a majority of the votes on the IRa council, controlling it, or the IRA runs SF - whichever way you look at it, one is the subsidiary of the other and given SFs history its most likely SF is taking the orders from the Army Council.What issue have I dodged with false offence????
Your entire response to my post identifying the SF leadership as being IRA men or heavily IRA connected was a hand wringing 2 lines about a throw away remark. Thats not dodging the issue?Refusal to condem the IRA shows avoidence of tricky issues!! How exactly? What would republicans condemming one another do for the cause?
It might, just might, demonstrate that republicanism as a political idealogy is not one and the same as a murderous campaign of abduction, torture, bombings, shootings and beatings. Republicans who fail to condemn clearly those acts are just reinforcing the connection between republicanism and terrorism - which is what SF have done for the past 30 odd years, effectively alienating anyone who disagrees with absuction, torture, bombings, shootings and beatings.0 -
I don't accept that the vote SF got was purely a protest vote, SF are working hard on the ground and people repayed them for that with their votes.
Yes there are members of Sinn Fein who in the PAST were involved in illegal activitys, but these people has chosen the political route and I'm willing to give them a chance.
People see SF as a party that will actually work for the people, and do it honestly, the people of Ireland are fed up of the arrogant and unfulfilled promises of the current government and people also remember the last time FG were in Government.
I don't think SF is really taking anyone elses vote, imo they are simply getting people who previously haven't voted out to vote for them, you can have all the support in the world but if you can't them to the Ballot box on the day it counts its not worth anything.
The gap between the rich and the poor is very large and this was shown in the recent UN report, the same report also showed that we are not spending enough on either health or education despite the great ecomony. To be eligble for a medical card you have to be earning less than half the minimum wage!!! Ireland is a very unequal soceity and SF wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.
Sand says4 members of the IRA army council are SF political leaders
Can you please prove that?0 -
Originally posted by irish1
To be eligble for a medical card you have to be earning less than half the minimum wage!!!KERRY TD Martin Ferris has hit back at weekend newspaper allegations that branded him "a scrounger" for continuing to use a medical card after his election to the Dail in May.
Sinn Fein officials in Kerry have vehemently dismissed the allegations that branded the TD "a scrounger and a hypocrite" for continuing to claim free medical care despite earning close on 100,000 in salary and expenses.
But according to SF:
SourceSinn Fein says the Kerry North TD Martin Ferris is fully entitled to hold a medical card.
This is despite the fact that he is alleged to be earning nearly €100,000 annually.
Source0 -
cork are you contradicting the statement about needing to earn half hte minimum wage to get a medical card? one td in kerry's eligibility doesnt answer that. i dn't see hte hypocrisy btw. sinnfein's policies are certainly arguable but their tds dont keep all of their earnings from politics right?0
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Originally posted by NinjaBart
but their tds dont keep all of their earnings from politics right?
I really think their TDs, MLAs and MPs are entitled to do what ever they want with their money.
It is their choice. If they want to give it to SF, buy fast cars, holiday villas...........It is their choice.0 -
apart from dodging the original point again, i see what your saying and i agree with you. however, hypocrisy doesnt mean picking your point of view on one thing and their ppoint of view on another and pointoing out the inconsistency of those. what i mean is that while subscribing to one socialist ideal it doesnt seem hypocritical to take the benefit of another socialist ideal (in this case one which th current covernment seems to entitle him to). socialism isnt all about flogging yurself. are you saying that hes a hypocrit?
actually i don't know what ht ehll your saying or what point your trying to make since i read your post again.0 -
Can you please prove that?
Im glad you asked Irish1, Id have hated to go to all the trouble of copying and pasting that evaluation of the Sf leadership for nothing... here we go again.Gerry Adams, President:
Convicted IRA bomber Dolours Price, described Gerry Adams as her commanding officer at the time of her involvement in a 4 car bomb on London, March 8th, 1973 at a republican event in February 2001 – Irish Echo Newspaper Corp, March 2001.
His father was a IRA member convicted for shooting RUC officers.
He was interned in 1971, but was senior enough in some republican organisation to be released in July 1972 to take part in secret talks between the IRA and NI Secretary Whitelaw. He was 23 years old. He did not become president of SF for another 11 years.
Has refused to confirm or deny his IRA membership, claiming he could get 10 years for it.
Joe Cahill, Honorary Vice President:
Self confessed IRA member. Sentenced to death for murdering a RUC man, commuted to life, released after 7 years under an amnesty program.
Commander of the Provisional IRA in west Belfast during the 1970s. Arrested in 1973 for smuggling arms into Ireland on board the Claudia.
Founded Irish Northern Aid in the US to get funds for the IRA murders.
Pat Doherty, Vice President:
Born in Glasgow, Nicknamed Papa Doc, His brother was a member of the IRA Balcombe Street Gang. Identified by police intelligence to be a member of the PIRA army council, which he has always denied.
Mitchel McLaughlin, Chairperson:
A friend of McGuiness’ from back in the days when they were hurling petrol bombs in Derry 1969. As leader of SF in Derry he’s gone on record at the Bloody Sunday inquiry as never asking his colleague McGuiness what he was doing as part of the IRA delegation for the 1972 talks. Presumably he never asked Gerry Adams either. He is clearly the prototype of SFs new wave of supporters – either very stupid, or very naïve.
Despite this he is one of the more respectable faces of SFs leadership – has even gone on record as claiming that SF want to get rid of the IRA. May want to include the disclaimer: sometime, in the undefined future.
Gerry Kelly, Belfast:
Given life sentence in 1973 for killing 1 person and injuring 250 in bomb attacks in England.
Escaped from the maze prison in 1983, one prison warder died after being stabbed with a chisel. Kelly shot another in the head. Escaped to Amsterdam where he was recaptured in 1986. His flat contained cash, fake passport, maps and the keys to a container that held 14 rifles, 100,000 rounds of ammunition and about a ton of nitro-benzine.
Has spent 19 years in prison. Served only a short sentence after his extradition from Holland due to conditions on the extradition.
Has stated he has no regrets about the death of the prison officer who died during the escape from the Maze.
Martin McGuiness, Derry:
2nd in command of the IRA in Derry from the early 70s. Travelled as part of the IRA delegation that secretly met with NI secretary Whitelaw in 1972.
Imprisoned several times in the Republic in connection with IRA activities but has always denied he ever became Chief of Staff for the IRA, despite many claims to the contrary. Renowned for promising informers who had fled IRA threats that they would be safe if they returned and had a little chat with the boys.
Persuaded Frank Hegartys mother to get him home to Belfast with a promise of safety – within two weeks he was abducted, tortured, murdered and dumped in Castlederg, Country Tyrone.
Francie Molloy, Tyrone:
Stated on November 22nd 1998 at an address to Cullyhana republican , that ‘negotiations is simply another phase in that [republican] struggle’ and if the IRA did not get what they wanted at the talks ‘we simply go back to what we know best’
Note that its him saying we, not me. He may need to receive further education in Sfspeak and brush up on his naivety before he’s allowed to speak in public again.
Arnie O'Connell, Cork:
Served 18 years in Portlaoise for the murder of Eamonn Ryan, during a bank robbery in Waterford, 1979. Also charged with membership of the PIRA and armed robbery arising from the same incident.
At the commemoration of Hugh Hehir in 1997, a fellow IRA man shot dead by Garda Special Branch in 1988, he stated that there will be no decommissioning until the British leave Ireland.
Martin Ferris, Kerry:
Convicted of gun running, IRA membership and assault.0 -
Originally posted by Sand
Im glad you asked Irish1, Id have hated to go to all the trouble of copying and pasting that evaluation of the Sf leadership for nothing... here we go again.
LOL
I asked you to prove
and you paste that previous post in, lol.4 members of the IRA army council are SF political leaders
Did you actually read what I asked you to prove, oh and note you didn't say 4 members of the IRA army council WERE SF political leaders you said ARE.
So now go and prove to me that 4 current members of the IRA army council are SF politcial leaders0 -
I know you don't,I didn't say I did either.Originally posted by irish1
I don't accept that the vote SF got was purely a protest vote,
Yes indeed, those are the "marginalised mostly.SF are working hard on the ground and people repayed them for that with their votes.
The trip to find the votes of the more affluent majority will be very difficult because people are essentially selfish.
You have to give them something or be perceived to be giving them something that they want rather than be perceived as taking something away from them
They are very likely to perceive from SF's spending list that they would have to pay more taxes.
That is Something I wouldn't envy the job of selling to them.
Thats very true but...I don't think SF is really taking anyone elses vote, imo they are simply getting people who previously haven't voted out to vote for them, you can have all the support in the world but if you can't them to the Ballot box on the day it counts its not worth anything.
It also has it's limits.
Remember that over 60% of the voters voted at the last election,SF captured roughly 8% of that.
That was a high turnout.
The devil of course is in the detail.The gap between the rich and the poor is very large and this was shown in the recent UN report, the same report also showed that we are not spending enough on either health or education despite the great ecomony. To be eligble for a medical card you have to be earning less than half the minimum wage!!! Ireland is a very unequal soceity and SF wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.
You can be pretty sure that those who will be made or who perceive that they will be made poorer by SF policies will not vote for them.
Thats the selfish nature of people again and as long as you have a majority of people in that category, you have a catch 22 for Sinn Féin.
As was pointed out before, the 1980's were poverty stricken years compared to today in Ireland with high taxes,high public debt and mass emmigration...yet socialism didn't thrive.
Now we are working from a position where the unemployment rate is 4.5% or thereabouts.
At weekends, lads my age are out partying every night and I know loads of them working on buildings taking home €500 or more a week and under pressure to spend it.
I know guys training in the local Gaa club working on buildings ,carpenters,electricians,tradesmen and all driving 03 or 04 cars.
Thats all reality just as much as there are those marginalised or for some reason don't follow the same opportunities.
These are young people who should be on SF's list of potential voters, but I can tell you that if you want to take money out of their pockets, even an extra €50 , they won't be impressed.0 -
Fair enough, I thought you were a little more clued in to the republican encampment than that - but whatever.
The IRA Army Council is made up of Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris,Brian Keenan, Thomas Slab" Murphy, Pat Doherty and Martin McGuinness who took up the post of IRA Chief of Staff. Compare that list - which is published openly without a challenge by those involved - to the list of SF members I provided......
OH MY GOD!
Surely there must be two each of Adams, Ferris, Doherty and McGuinness!!! Surely known, admitted and convicted IRA men couldnt possibly be still leading the IRA. No, couldnt be - I mean SF have said theyre committed to the peace process, they said so, they wouldnt lie.....0 -
Originally posted by Sand
Fair enough, I thought you were a little more clued in to the republican encampment than that - but whatever.
The IRA Army Council is made up of Gerry Adams, Martin Ferris,Brian Keenan, Thomas Slab" Murphy, Pat Doherty and Martin McGuinness who took up the post of IRA Chief of Staff. Compare that list - which is published openly without a challenge by those involved - to the list of SF members I provided......
OH MY GOD!
Surely there must be two each of Adams, Ferris, Doherty and McGuinness!!! Surely known, admitted and convicted IRA men couldnt possibly be still leading the IRA. No, couldnt be - I mean SF have said theyre committed to the peace process, they said so, they wouldnt lie.....
Where is the proof that Adams, Ferris and McGuinness are
????members of the IRA army council0 -
Well Im glad youre at least accepting Doherty is an Army Council member. Shows progress.
Now - If you are convinced Adams and Co arent army Council members how come this can be printed about them http://observer.guardian.co.uk/nireland/story/0,11008,582078,00.html by a well known paper and Adams doesnt dare sue?
If I was accused of being on the IRA army council Id sue and have that article removed/altered. Adams is well known, he must have witnesses able to account for his whereabouts if he wasnt meeting with the other 6 members of the Army council?
Accept reality - the SF leadership is heavily dominated by known, convicted and admitted IRA men. 4 of the SF leadership sit on the 7 man IRA Army council. Whichever way you look at it, either SF run the IRA or the IRA run SF.
And before you cast doubt on the paper, remeber you say that we should trust Adams when he says republicans have committed to the peace process - even though the IMC decided that republicans had not committed - but Adams is a known liar and opportunist. He denied that Garda McCabes killers were IRA men - hes know campaigning for their release as IRA men. The hypocrite.0 -
I didn't accept Doherty is an Army Council member, I simply forgot to type his name.
That 2001 article offers no proof, and if Gerry Adams was to sue a paper everytime they printed lies about him he would be in the courts full-time.
I asked for proof and you can't offer any can you??0 -
Originally posted by Sand
Accept reality - the SF leadership is heavily dominated by known, convicted and admitted IRA men. 4 of the SF leadership sit on the 7 man IRA Army council. Whichever way you look at it, either SF run the IRA or the IRA run SF.
Can't you see that irish1 is not going to accept these, or any other, facts you present? If you were to show him a video of Adams and McGuinness giving orders to other IRA members, holding guns, or even personnally knee-capping some poor bastard down a dark alley in the North, he wouldn't believe it. After all, the video could easily be faked by the British special forces who are out to scupper Sinn Fein and their love of peace, right?! If irish1 were Doubting Thomas, even sticking his fingers into the wounds of Jesus wouldn't convince him - he could always be hallucinating!
irish1, nothing like this can be proved absolutely, or disproved absolutely. Prove that dragons exist. Prove that ghosts don't control Bertie Ahern, who himself is an undead zombie masquerading as an anorak-wearing Dub. Prove that the Sinn Fein leadership are honest politicians. It is impossible to do any of the above.0 -
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Originally posted by ionapaul
Can't you see that irish1 is not going to accept these, or any other, facts you present?
I am sure he will when he posts the facts.
ionapaul sleeps with donkeys. But hey we can't prove or disprove that, so it must be true right? And if you ask me for evidence I will just quote this paragraph again.
Generally if you can't prove something it is not true.0 -
Originally posted by Hobbes
I am sure he will when he posts the facts.
ionapaul sleeps with donkeys. But hey we can't prove or disprove that, so it must be true right? And if you ask me for evidence I will just quote this paragraph again.
Generally if you can't prove something it is not true.
Exactly!0 -
Generally if you cannot prove something it is unproven.Originally posted by Hobbes
Generally if you can't prove something it is not true.
The more important question is how do you remove the perception that Sinn Féin and the IRA are linked?
I haven't seen it done on this forum and it certainly hasn't been in the outside world.
Two moderators that I am aware of, here on this board for instance have that perception firmly implanted in that they say they would never consider voting for SF while it has a private army.
I have that perception also.
These are inteligent people with a minimum bottom line of acceptability and representative of the way a majority of people think on things with respect to Sinn Féin
Furthermore I am very concerned with the background of many of it's activists/leaders etc when they were able to justify a total disrespect for human life within most of the current electorates lifetime.
The wives and families of those whose deaths were condoned are still alive, making this perception very, very real.
It's a far more restrictive perception in its implications for SF's electoral growth than any other.
I've a healthy repect for the values of socialism when implimented without riding rough shod over those that work hard to earn good wages/salaries...
But I've no wish at all to see peole governing me who were prepared to condone shooting ,killing,maiming and bombing such a short time ago.
I just couldn't trust them , not to condone it again, they have already shown their character in that regard.
Of course, you are probably going to tell me that I should trust them, like people 60 years ago did.
Good luck anyone who thinks they can in 2004 procede along those lines but , in todays civilised society it just won't wash with most.
It might given about 30 years by which time faces will have changed and if theres no further bombings and shootings, people will have learned to accept that SF has had a history but has moved on.
Right now though that history is all to real and all too present.0 -
Originally posted by Hobbes
I am sure he will when he posts the facts.
ionapaul sleeps with donkeys. But hey we can't prove or disprove that, so it must be true right? And if you ask me for evidence I will just quote this paragraph again.
Generally if you can't prove something it is not true.
Prove that your parents love you. Can you prove it to me? Didn't think so, but I believe they do. Prove that other people exist. Can you? Didn't think so, must not be true.
Prove that sub-atomic (electrons, neutrons, etc...) particles exist. This cannot be be proved, as atoms or smaller particles cannot be seen or measured independant of their effects on other physical matter - many physicists can admit with a smile that these particles are believed to exist because if they NEED to exist for the laws of physics to remain valid. Show me a photograph of a sub-atomic particle, I'll believe it when I see the evidence. Same is true with a lot of what we accept as science - it needs to exist to explain our world, but there is no direct proof. We use 'gravity' to explain a lot of things, but what is it, can you measure it independently of its effects on physical matter? Nope.
There are a lot of things we (society) take as true that cannot be proved.
'Generally if you can't prove something it is not true' - someone suggested to me that Gerry Adams is a space alien who can shape-shift to physically mimic humans in any way science can measure. Can you prove that this statement is not true? Of course not.0 -
Originally posted by Rock Climber
The more important question is how do you remove the perception that Sinn Féin and the IRA are linked?
Saying SF and IRA are linked? They certainly are a level. However to claim that Gerry Adams et al is ordering to have people kneecapped and killed is reaching.
I didn't and probably will never vote for SF. But I would much prefer to see the parties fighting politically/peaceful means. If we were to dismiss a party based on its terrorist ties, it would exclude most if not all of the Irish/NI parties.Of course, you are probably going to tell me that I should trust them, like people 60 years ago did.
Good luck anyone who thinks they can in 2004
Certainly not.Right now though that history is all to real and all too present. [/B]
When was the last time the IRA killed someone? Can you tell me?0 -
ionapaul sleeps with donkeys. But hey we can't prove or disprove that, so it must be true right? And if you ask me for evidence I will just quote this paragraph again.
Thats just it though. If you were to run around saying that ionapaul sleeps with donkeys he can, and probably will sue you. Hell win, youll be forced to retract your comments, apologise and possibly pay compensation.
The Observer has named all of these men as leaders of a terrorist organisation charged with some of the worst atrocities in Irish and British history. Ive not heard of any successful libel case against them since, and the claim remains unretracted - the editors were happy to publish it because they can draw upon reams and reams of Irish and British police intelligence agents who will confirm that list, intelligence so good that it completely compromised the IRA to the point where even the hardcore had to accept they couldnt win, and kept the RIRAs Kilcock cell on an extremely tight leash.Generally if you can't prove something it is not true.
Generally Editors dont publish stuff if they cant back it up - or theyll get sued - ask Piers Morgan. Generally if youre the innocent victim of a smear campaign youll sue to protect your name. Adams hasnt afaik. Neither has anyone else on that list.Can't you see that irish1 is not going to accept these, or any other, facts you present?
Nah, I guess its clear by now he wont. He probably believes that FF are honest and upright.0 -
You can play that card anyway you like, I believe Gerry Adams is not a member of the IRA army council, and no-one has given me any evidence that he is.
I could say Bertie is a lying cheat after his performance in the Mahon tribunal but I can't prove it, statements without proof are opinions.Opinion:A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof:
Stating that Gerry Adams and other SF leaders are members of the IRA Army Council are opinions which can be agreed or disagreed upon0 -
I'm convinced that Irish1 (and most other people here) does actually believe that Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA, ditto Pat Doherty. But he refuses to admit as much with his keyboard. Whether they still are members is another issue.Originally posted by irish1
Exactly!
But if Irish1 really doesn't believe Adams was ever a member of the 'RA, then I think that makes him (and anyone else that thinks the same) to be naive beyond belief.0 -
Originally posted by Sand
Nah, I guess its clear by now he wont. He probably believes that FF are honest and upright.
LOL you obviously don't read my posts that often if you believe that.0 -
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Originally posted by Sand
If you were to run around saying that ionapaul sleeps with donkeys he can, and probably will sue you. Hell win, youll be forced to retract your comments, apologise and possibly pay compensation.
Unless you've got those pictures of that wild weekend I had in Tijuana...;)0
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