Willy O'Dea's reply to Sinn Féin criticism

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Hobbes
Saying SF and IRA are linked? They certainly are a level. However to claim that Gerry Adams et al is ordering to have people kneecapped and killed is reaching.

But you see you can't prove that he didn't order it either so your own defence of position works both ways.
My position on this , is that inteligent people perceive the links to be too strong for them to stomach them.
Adams certainly condoned, bombing,shooting and maiming in my lifetime and yours.
If he did it before,he can in my view do it again and thats not the sort of character I and many like me want in government.

If we were to dismiss a party based on its terrorist ties, it would exclude most if not all of the Irish/NI parties.

Has any existing TD/Senator for Labour,FF or FG ever condoned murder?
I wasn't around 60 years ago so I couldn't speak for the dynamic of that society.
But in 2004, the character of a politician is in my view and in the view of most in doubt if they have condoned something as fowl as that.
I just couldn't trust them to take decisions on my behalf knowing that they are capable of condoning something so fowl.

When was the last time the IRA killed someone? Can you tell me?

Thats not the issue here.
The issue is that , people who have condoned all this killing against the wishes of the Irish people at the time (and still condone it) want my vote and the votes of the people whose wishes they ignored by condoning such fowl acts.
Thats no good on the CV of anyone who wants the votes of people who regarded the IRA campaign as Vile.
The underlying perception is always going to be there that at some point, because they have done it before, they will do it again.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
But you see you can't prove that he didn't order it either so your own defence of position works both ways.

No. If a person makes an accusation it is generally up to that person to prove it or STFU. I certainly know that SF connections to IRA are certainly stronger then FF (who have also had IRA ties in the past). But to say he is a leader of the council.. well hows about some proof to back that statement up?

Adams certainly condoned, bombing,shooting and maiming in my lifetime and yours.

Again, proof he condoned it. But you have to remember that all political parties (certainly in the North) as well as the British condoned shooting and maiming (and some bombing too).

If he did it before,he can in my view do it again and thats not the sort of character I and many like me want in government.

But there has yet to be proof shown that he has done this.

Has any existing TD/Senator for Labour,FF or FG ever condoned murder?

Arms shipment to the IRA by FF?

Thats not the issue here.

It certainly is the issue. You (by your words) made out that the IRA are still active. So please tell me the last time you have heard that the IRA have killed/attacked anyone.

Now compare that to other paramilitary organisations in N.I. and tell me who has and who hasn't given up?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Hobbes
No. If a person makes an accusation it is generally up to that person to prove it or STFU. I certainly know that SF connections to IRA are certainly stronger then FF (who have also had IRA ties in the past). But to say he is a leader of the council.. well hows about some proof to back that statement up?

Why isn't the paper sued?

Again, proof he condoned it. But you have to remember that all political parties (certainly in the North) as well as the British condoned shooting and maiming (and some bombing too).

Hobbes are you seriously asking me to provide proof that Gerry Adams condoned the IRA campaign from the late 60's to the 90's???
Thats elementary , he was in jail for them and carried their coffins when their bombs killed them as well as their innocent victims.
Theres a photo of him carrying an IRA bombers coffin, did he carry their innocent victims coffins too??
Not to mention all the times, that Sinn Féin held "in camera" parts ( ie behind closed doors and out of the glaze of cameras ) of their Árd'fheiseanna to discuss the IRA campaign.
Those were regular during the 1980's.

But there has yet to be proof shown that he has done this.

Theres plenty of proof that Gerry Adams condoned the IRA campaign One need only even read some of his books to pick up a taste of his approval of the IRA.

This extract is from Adams' 'Scenario for establishing a Socialist Republic' published in An Phoblacht April 19th, 1980.©
Many Republicans appear to have a rather simplistic, some would say elitist, attitude about the manner in which a socialist Republic will be established in Ireland. The most popular scenario - fortunately not as readily accepted now as it was a few years ago - appears to go something like this.Phase 1: The IRA's armed struggle in the six counties will succeed in bringing the British to the conference table and will secure a Declaration of Withdrawal (or a declaration of the British Government's intention to withdraw)Phase 2: In the interim, or perhaps the post-withdrawal period, Republicans will either talk with, or fight with Loyalists. Indeed, Republicans may have to do both if the situation so develops. Eventually, however, the Loyalists (robbed of the British prop) will see sense and come to terms with the new situation.Phase 3: A National Irish Convention representative of all political opinions and loyalities will be held. Republicans, flushed with the IRA's successful achievement of British withdrawal, will win a significant electoral victory and will then establish a socialist Republic for the people. This then is the popular, if hazy, and now, thankfully, debated, projection of the way in which peace (with justice) will be achieved.
Let us examine it in some detail...
That is, a British withdrawal can be secured more quickly and in more favourable conditions if it is achieved not only because of the IRA's military thrust but also because resistance to British rule has been channeled and built into an alternative political movement capable not only of articulating the Republican position but also being representative of all those with a commitment to a socialist Republic.

That last bit there is particularally telling.
Source

You (by your words) made out that the IRA are still active. So please tell me the last time you have heard that the IRA have killed/attacked anyone.

Where did I by my words say the IRA are still active?
( although like it or lump it, it has been documented that they are involved in punishment beatings and haven't got rid of their illegally held weapons which are part and parcel of the "private" army persona that most people have a distate for )
My posts are addressing the perception that people have of the links between SF and the IRA and peoples distaste for their murderous campaign much of which was carried out without any permission from the people of this island during my lifetime and yours if you were born in the 1980's or before.
The victims relatives are still very much alive which adds strenght to the reality of that perception.

Arms shipment to the IRA by FF?

I asked if any existing TD or senator from FF,FG or Labour condoned murder.
Because there isn't, they *might* get my vote based on their policies as would any other politician who didn't condone murder at any point.
But those who I perceive to have links with a private Army or who have condoned the murderous use
of that "army" falsely in my name as an Irish citizen won't.
It's going to take many, many moons of persuasion to counter that .

Hobbes

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Why isn't the paper sued?

Just because the paper isn't sued doesn't mean it isn't true or false.

Hobbes are you seriously asking me to provide proof that Gerry Adams condoned the IRA campaign from the late 60's to the 90's???
Thats elementary , he was in jail for them and carried their coffins when their bombs killed them as well as their innocent victims.

He was in Jail during internment. He wasn't in jail because of the IRA. During internment a large number of people assocaited with Civil reforum, were jailed as well as people with similar names.

As for carrying the bombers coffin. Certainly carrying it doesn't mean anything. However it is known that the IRA routinely used funerals as meeting places (so the British would put a wire on the coffin).

As for carrying the innocent victims coffin. We both know what would of happened if he had shown up, as similar has happened to both sides.

The BBC piece reads more like a personal biograpghy rather then a non-subjective one. Wikipedia seems to have it better..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Adams

Your sources also say that he was charged with being a member of the IRA but was dropped due to not having the evidence to prove it.

Your sources also mention that he turned the IRA/SF away from use of weapons and to turn into a proper political party.

Theres plenty of proof that Gerry Adams condoned the IRA campaign One need only even read some of his books to pick up a taste of his approval of the IRA.

I don't have his book, but you have appeared to have read it. Can you quote a part?

That last bit there is particularally telling.
Source

What last bit do you refer to? to a document that is no longer used?

Where did I by my words say the IRA are still active?

"It might given about 30 years by which time faces will have changed and if theres no further bombings and shootings, people will have learned to accept that SF has had a history but has moved on.
Right now though that history is all to real and all too present."

You make it sound like they are still active.

( although like it or lump it, it has been documented that they are involved in punishment beatings and haven't got rid of their illegally held weapons

Again do you have documentation of this? They have disarmed, they just haven't made it public what they have disarmed (except to the British government).

As for punishment beatings, according to CAIN the last attack hasn't happened in quite some time (from the IRA, loyalists is another story).

Also you said "Has any existing TD/Senator for Labour,FF or FG ever condoned murder?". Charles Haughy is existing and he was napped over gun running for the IRA. Does that mean all of FF are working with terrorists? Or were in Charleys reign?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Hobbes
Just because the paper isn't sued doesn't mean it isn't true or false.

I never said it was true or false and hence for the purpose of this discussion do not have an onus to go about finding proof of what was printed in the Sunday Indo.
As you know I'm talking of the perceptions of the vast majority of inteligent people, including I can safely say two of the moderators on this board regarding Sinn Féin having a private army.

In answer to my question as to where I stated that the IRA were still active.. you replied using a quote of mine and commented as follows:

"It might given about 30 years by which time faces will have changed and if theres no further bombings and shootings, people will have learned to accept that SF has had a history but has moved on.

Right now though that history is all to real and all too present."

You make it sound like they are still active.

Thats quoting me out of context.
I said their history is all too real because their victims families are still alive.
Thats not the same as saying the IRA are active.
Although I did state (when I questioned you about where you were getting me saying that the IRA are active, in my last post) that there is evidence that they are active in punishment beatings and that their un decommissioned arms are a trapping of the perception that they are a "private army" associated with Sinn Fein.

That last bit is particularally telling
What last bit do you refer to? to a document that is no longer used?

I was refering to Gerry's analysis in 1980 (at which time the IRA campaign was at it's height) as to how things were going to pan out.
In the piece he was analyising in his article in an Phoblacht he reckoned that "a British withdrawal can be secured more quickly and in more favourable conditions if it is achieved not only because of the IRA's military thrust but also because resistance to British rule has been channeled and built into an alternative political movement capable not only of articulating the Republican position but also being representative of all those with a commitment to a socialist Republic."
From the source I refered to above.
Thats the bit I was saying is quite telling, ie the bullet combined with the ballot box strategy.

As for carrying the bombers coffin. Certainly carrying it doesn't mean anything.

Well as I've stated already,I'm discussing peoples perceptions here which have a direct bearing on the way they will vote.
Carrying an IRA bombers coffin( days after blowing up himself and innocent shoppers in a butchers) definitely does lend to the perception of not only links to the IRA but tacit support for them.

Even I though in knowing what I perceive do recognise the road down which Adams has been traveling in recent years and wish him the best of luck bringing many characters connected with unsavoury deeds down that road with him.
However my perception and belief is at this stage that I would not trust people associated with the whole nasty IRA campaign to be representing me and I'm far from alone in that view.

Thats where I say again[ and note the context ] "It might given about 30 years by which time faces will have changed and if theres no further bombings and shootings, people will have learned to accept that SF has had a history but has moved on."

bonkey

Originally posted by Rock Climber
As you know I'm talking of the perceptions of the vast majority of inteligent people,

Firstly, this gives me an excellent opportunity to remind people that the forum rules ask you to be clear when you are stating opinion, and not to try and pass them off as fact.

If you are talking about what people abelieve, and what you believe, as opposed to what you know and/or can show to be true, then please make it clear. Irish1 hasn't - that I can see - gotten up on his high horse about anyone commenting that they believe something about Adams et al. He is getting up on his high horse on the repeated insistence of a small number of individuals to continuously state their belief as fact.

This has led to a multitude of carbon-copy Punch and Judy shows - another instance of which we are enjoying here - which ultimately does nothing but ruin the discussion. Personally, I'm beginning to get the impression that many/most of the problem is being deliberately caused by people who don't like Sinn Fein to the extent that they simply cannot pass up the opportunity to try and destroy any conversation about them which isn't already headed down the "nothing but scorn and criticism" line.

Also, I should ask you to prove that you are, in fact, doing what you claim to be doing here. i.e. I should ask you to show how you can know what it is what the vast majority of intelligent people perceive.

Because if you can't show that, then you're not only passing off more opinion as fact, you're probably doing it with teh deliberate intention of being disparaging to anyone who doesn't share that view.


jc

Mighty_Mouse

As you know I'm talking of the perceptions of the vast majority of inteligent people,

Are you? I never knew vast majority of intelligent people could be measured!! Also, I take it those people who support Sinn Fein are unintelligent so? Wow, hope Berti reshuffles education because there's a rapidly increasing number of unintelligent people in Ireland in the last 5 years!;)

including I can safely say two of the moderators on this board regarding Sinn Féin having a private army

Surely, your not saying that a moderator status equals higher intelligence or knowledge! :dunno:

I said their history is all too real because their victims families are still alive.

So we're talking about pain and attrocity versus attrocity again!! What should we do, wait unil the troubles generation has died before starting a democratic government? No hope for Rwanda, Palestine, Israel, Congo, Northern Ireland so! Are you argueing that Dev should not of participated in the Irish government because the pain would of been too much ? It didn't take 30 years for Ireland to get over the Civil War when the whole country was involved in conflict!

that their un decommissioned arms

million 1st time of asking. Your solution to decommissing pls? And the reason for constantly referring to decommissiong while your at it. Again, what is the purpose of decommissioning?

Carrying an IRA bombers coffin

Sinn Fein is a republican party primarily from republican communities in the north. Republican communities which supported the activities of the IRA. I can't speak for G Adams but I'm sure he doesn't have a problem with the voilent struggle at the time. I don't see how any of that is relevant to Sinn Feins political struggle and its trustworthiness though.

Ps
I like your reference to reality, speaking for majorities,intelligent people, democratic values etc yet refuse to accept the GFA or Sinn Feins democratic mandate and the right to hold one.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by bonkey

Because if you can't show that, then you're not only passing off more opinion as fact, you're probably doing it with teh deliberate intention of being disparaging to anyone who doesn't share that view.


jc

I'm basing my opinion on the fact that (a) 92% of voters at the last election didn't vote for SF despite there being a large disappointment with the current government and (b) I'm assuming that 92% of the voters is the vast majority of the voting public and that the vast majority of these are inteligent
And (c) that I've seen two moderators on this board state that they would not vote for Sinn Féin while it has a private Army and I know from their posts that they are inteligent.

I'm not dissing SF voters as un inteligent by extention,I'm merely basing my opinions on the facts as I see them.

ecksor

And you know the reasons for those 92% voting the way they do how exactly? How did you break the reasons down in terms of perception and tolerance of paramilitary links I mean.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I can't speak for G Adams but I'm sure he doesn't have a problem with the voilent struggle at the time. I don't see how any of that is relevant to Sinn Feins political struggle and its trustworthiness though.

Firstly welcome back
I thought your weeks ban was up on thursday, 7 days being a week not 6 but how and ever welcome back none the less.
Again,I'm talking about peoples perceptions here and not whether there is adequate proof for those perceptions.
G.Adams is as entitled as any Republican to hold their view on the IRA campaign, but he should and you should expect Some people to exclude politicians who are perceived to be associated with a campaign of murder (that never had the support of the Irish public) from their list of who they are happy to vote for.

I like your reference to reality, speaking for majorities,intelligent people, democratic values etc yet refuse to accept the GFA or Sinn Feins democratic mandate and the right to hold one.

Where did I say I didn't respect any Sinn Féin mandate or their right to hold one?
All I'm speaking about here is what I would regard as their difficulty in being accepted by a large amount of people who regard a condoning of murder as something that should not be on a politicians CV in Ireland.

*edited to include the word not in my last line above-I've put it in bold to emphasise where I made the edit*

Rock Climber

Originally posted by ecksor
And you know the reasons for those 92% voting the way they do how exactly? How did you break the reasons down in terms of perception and tolerance of paramilitary links I mean.

To be fair I don't,It's just my perception
But a good way of taking it would be to analyise transfer patterns from the first preferences of other parties to Sinn Féin.
They don't do well there.
Now obviously that could be just ideological on the socialism front but it is a fact that the transfers do not happen in any great number.
Another way would be to ask in an opinion poll whether this is a problem for voters.
I do recall but haven't to hand opinion polls confirming that Irish voters do believe that Sinn Féin and the IRA are linked and thats as I've said already a perception that only a good deal of time a nd a lot of forgetting would cure-like it did for FF and FG's forebearers.

ecksor

Originally posted by Rock Climber
But a good way of taking it would be to analyise transfer patterns from the first preferences of other parties to Sinn Féin.

You say it's a good way, but then you say why it isn't a good way here:

They don't do well there.
Now obviously that could be just ideological on the socialism front but it is a fact that the transfers do not happen in any great number.

Another way would be to ask in an opinion poll whether this is a problem for voters.

This seems like a better way ...

I do recall but haven't to hand opinion polls confirming that Irish voters do believe that Sinn Féin and the IRA are linked and thats as I've said already a perception that only a good deal of time a nd a lot of forgetting would cure-like it did for FF and FG's forebearers.

But this isn't the question that needs to be asked.

I don't need opinion polls to make me believe that most people think the two are linked, but are you not trying to demonstrate that that's the reason that intelligent people don't vote for them? Showing A and B occuring doesn't show that A caused B.

Apart from your comment about how "intelligent people" behave, I'm not really taking issue with your beliefs, but your justification doesn't seem to stand up.

Mighty_Mouse

I thought your weeks ban was up on thursday, 7 days being a week not 6 but how and ever welcome back none the less.

Had it marked in your diary, did ya!:D

All I'm speaking about here is what I would regard as their difficulty in being accepted by a large amount of people who regard a condoning of murder as something that should be on a politicians CV in Ireland

See I have a problem when you refer to the "vast majority", "most intelligent people", "everyone bar couple of protest vote!" etc etc. You actually don't speak for vast majority Rockclimber. The fact of the matter is that in 5-10 years time the vast majority of irish people (especially the increasing numbers of disenfranchised) won't give a fiddlers about the Troubles or the fact that the IRA haven't been active for over 15years. With a fully functioning northern democracy, a large Sinn Fein presence in government, huge community welfare work and Irish people returning to their socialist ideals your "vast majority of intelligent people" will dwindle, me thinks.

To be fair I don't,It's just my perception

at last and IMO!

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
a large Sinn Fein presence in government, huge community welfare work and Irish people returning to their socialist ideals your "vast majority of intelligent people" will dwindle, me thinks.
at last and IMO!

LoL
Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it.

See I have a problem when you refer to the "vast majority", "most intelligent people", "everyone bar couple of protest vote!" etc etc. You actually don't speak for vast majority Rockclimber.

And neither do you.
Qué sera sera, we'll see as the fellah says

bonkey

Originally posted by Rock Climber
I'm basing my opinion on the fact that (a) 92% of voters at the last election didn't vote for SF .

You were initially discussing allegations about SF members being on the IRA Army Council. You qualifgied this in the reply which I responded to by referring to :

...regarding Sinn Féin having a private army.

Now, you want me to believe that this is because 92% of the nation didn't vote for them.

Can I therefore assume that you believe that 90-something percent of the nation believe that the Greens also have a private army. After all, we didn't vote for them in coimparable numbers.

In fact, there isn't a single political party who isn't believed to have a private army by in excess of half the country if we use that logic.

So either I can conclude that you believe that every single political party in the country has a private army (in which case one would wonder what your problem with SF having one is), or that you don't seriously believe that these voting patterns in and of themself point to the existence of a private army.

Which leaves us with :

(c) that I've seen two moderators on this board state that they would not vote for Sinn Féin while it has a private Army and I know from their posts that they are inteligent.

So two people, whom you consider to be intelligent have said that they at-least-partially attribute their non-voting for SF to it having a private army. I don't think either have said that its the only reason they don't vote for SF...I seem to recall them simply saying that they would never vote SF while it retains links to its private army. (Or while they believe it retains links, at least).

In either case, extrapolating the opinions of two people to generalise about the though-process of the majority is critically flawed. I'm pretty sure I can find at least two intelligent posters here who think that the major politicos in FF are criminally culpable for something. I can show that FF received less than 50% of the vote in the last election.

By your logic, this means that the majority of intelligent voters in Ireland believe FF politicians are criminals !!!

I'm sure you'll agree thats pretty shaky as proof goes.

I'm not dissing SF voters as un inteligent by extention,

You're directly implying that they're in the vast minority of intelligent people, or not intelligent. If you didn't explicitly want to include the latter option, then the "intelligent" qualifier in your comment was redundant.

I'm merely basing my opinions on the facts as I see them.

And I've no problem with that - as long as you make it clear you are expressing an opnion and not a fact....which is the very point that spurred me into making my comment. Wasn't being done.

Mighty_Mouse

SF and the IRA are pretty well linked.
SF are a political group with an illegal army..

Another little gem from you Cork. Tell me you can't figure out why both these sentences don't run together!

Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Thank you very much!

And neither do you.

I never purported to, though.

Qué sera sera, we'll see as the fellah says

Yes, we will. At this stage I'd love to do a few searches on Boards finding threads with people stating how Sinn Fein will never win more than a couple of seats in the dail, irish people will never vote for them, IRA will never decommission (not a ounce, not a bullet), IRA will never say war is over or offer apologies, cease-fire will always break under pressure, republicans won't remain committed when frustrated, etc etc I must admit I'm confident in my position are you?...........................next election or two, PD's ousted, Berti looking around........ who's he gonna bring into government?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by ecksor
You say it's a good way, but then you say why it isn't a good way here

Actually ecksor,I see your point.
But I don't think it would be unfair to draw conclusions( other than incompatable socialist ideals) from say a lack of transfers in great numbers from labour to Sinn Féin

but are you not trying to demonstrate that that's the reason that intelligent people don't vote for them? Showing A and B occuring doesn't show that A caused B.

No ,
To be honest,I only introduced the description "inteligent" for the simple reason to say that voters are inteligent and capable of deciding whether SF and the IRA are linked or whether SF is the natural home to go to to match up with their beliefs and that 92% of them did not vote for them.

I do recall mentioning "economic issues" and voter well being as being a factor also here

Rock Climber

Originally posted by bonkey
You were initially discussing allegations about SF members being on the IRA Army Council. You qualifgied this in the reply which I responded to by referring to :



Now, you want me to believe that this is because 92% of the nation didn't vote for them.

Can I therefore assume that you believe that 90-something percent of the nation believe that the Greens also have a private army. After all, we didn't vote for them in coimparable numbers.

Seriously Bonkey.
The greens were never ever linked in any way that I am aware of with a private army, how could a linkage be used to form any opinion on their vote.
There are plenty of links between SF and the IRA, that being the underlying reason for the perception that I am talking about.

In either case, extrapolating the opinions of two people to generalise about the though-process of the majority is critically flawed. I'm pretty sure I can find at least two intelligent posters here who think that the major politicos in FF are criminally culpable for something. I can show that FF received less than 50% of the vote in the last election.

Fair point.
but let me say as I replied above,the word inteligent was introduced to mainly point out that people are capabable of making up their own minds on an issue and only a minority of them have gone with SF.
You'll appreciate that on this thread,I've put foward economic reasons as well as perceptions as to linkages to the IRA as to why I think that 92% didnt vote SF.

ionapaul

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
next election or two, PD's ousted, Berti looking around........ who's he gonna bring into government?

That would indeed be a horrifying prospect to many in Ireland. I'll be out of the country at that stage I hope. Fair play to Sinn Fein if they can do it!

swiss

The whole "intelligent people believe X so it must be true" philosophy is a bit of a misnomer, IMO. It implies that if people believe otherwise they must not be intelligent, which in many cases is simply not true. Thus taking this position can not only be construed as intellectually conceited, but downright condescending to those with opposing viewpoints. That may not have been your intention, but the implication is still evident.

Since you mentioned moderators (and I assume you meant moderators of this board) I will say that my views on Sinn Féin are a matter of record. In their current state, I have a strong distrust of SF/IRA (and yes, I believe their links are so deep and inextricable that they can be reasonably viewed as one and the same).

Originally posted by bonkey:

Personally, I'm beginning to get the impression that many/most of the problem is being deliberately caused by people who don't like Sinn Fein to the extent that they simply cannot pass up the opportunity to try and destroy any conversation about them which isn't already headed down the "nothing but scorn and criticism" line.

I have noticed this trend also, and frankly I think it is a shame. I believe it detracts from what I consider to be the very legitimate concerns which many people share concerning SF when those concerns color the policies and actions of the organisation as a whole.

I'm not claiming to be unbiased, but I am wary of being partisan regarding this issue. To be frank, I found myself in almost complete agreement with what Sand had to say. His comment about Sinn Féin supporters may have been somewhat unwarranted, but I understood the impetus behind his assertion that average Sinn Féin voters may not be aware of what exactly they are voting for when they cast that vote. I accept that some may vote for SF, fully cognisant of their links to the IRA, of their policies and manifesto. However, in my own limited experience, others vote for SF as simply a protest vote, with limited knowledge of the party as a whole. I don't know if this is the group to which Sand was referring as the "average Sinn Féin voter". For the moment, I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

bonkey

Originally posted by Rock Climber

but let me say as I replied above,the word inteligent was introduced to mainly point out that people are capabable of making up their own minds on an issue and only a minority of them have gone with SF.

If people are capable of making up their own minds, then why is there so much anti-Sinn-Féin sentiment so loudly and oftly expressed.

I can probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of threads which have been started in the last year by people wishing to praise Sinn Féin for something.

I'm pretty sure I couldn't count - on the same fingers - the number of threads which have been started in the past 3 months order to inform the rest of us about how bad Sinn Fein is, or which have been taken in that direction regardless of the original intent.

If people are so capable of making up their own minds, (and the vast majority of intelligent people vote against them) why is it that the knockers see the need to be far more vocal than the supporters, and why is Sinn Fein gaining in popularity on an almost-constant basis in the past few years despite this?

So it woudl seem that either idiots are coming out in force like never before, or there's something wrong with your logic....and you've already clarified that you weren't implying the former when you said that you didn't mean to imply that Sinn Fein supporters were idiots.....

You'll appreciate that on this thread,I've put foward economic reasons as well as perceptions as to linkages to the IRA as to why I think that 92% didnt vote SF.

Yes, but you also used the 92% as a basis for the argument why the majority think Sinn Fein still has "a private army", which was (strangely enough) in response to comments made about the Army Council of the IRA being members of Sinn Fein.

And this is what irks me....you originally answered the army council with a point about the existence of "a private army".

When the "vast majority" was mentioned, it was defended with logic about "not having voted for"...which rests on an assumption.

You now clarify this "didn't vote for" to mean "probably partially because of the army thing, but there were other reasons too".....which seems to be undermining even further the entire basis for it being a solid ground for making the assumption in relation to the army link.....

...and you're doing all of this - including pointing out the assumptions that you're making, because I made a comment about proving that the point was more than just an opinion because it wasn't presented as one!!!

Seriously, dude. Can't you just accept the point I was making - that too many people are passing off opinion as fact here when it comes to dissing Sinn Fein. All I'm looking for is a bit more honesty in the wording of things....and lets not forget that this is a double-edged sword.

jc

ionapaul

Originally posted by bonkey
If people are capable of making up their own minds, then why is there so much anti-Sinn-Féin sentiment so loudly and oftly expressed.

If people are so capable of making up their own minds, (and the vast majority of intelligent people vote against them) why is it that the knockers see the need to be far more vocal than the supporters, and why is Sinn Fein gaining in popularity on an almost-constant basis in the past few years despite this?

So it woudl seem that either idiots are coming out in force like never before, or there's something wrong with your logic....and you've already clarified that you weren't implying the former when you said that you didn't mean to imply that Sinn Fein supporters were idiots.....

Seriously, dude. Can't you just accept the point I was making - that too many people are passing off opinion as fact here when it comes to dissing Sinn Fein. All I'm looking for is a bit more honesty in the wording of things....and lets not forget that this is a double-edged sword.

To be fair, you could point to a lot of political parties over the years in Europe and elsewhere becoming popular and yet in hindsight being both dangerous and undemocratic in intent. I believe that historical precedent is why so many people have an intense dislike of Sinn Fein, a concern at their continuing and growing popularity, and a reason why people feel the need to speak out loudly and emphatically against them. At least that is the reason I do.

I understand the democratic process, listen when people mention the democratic mandate, but if I think people are making a serious mistake shouldn't I offer my view on that? I suppose it brings up an interesting question on whether you should intervene when someone makes a mistake or let them make it and suffer the consequences.

I honestly believe in my heart that my future (most important to me), my loved ones future (important to me) and the future of the citizens of Ireland (less important to me) are at risk in the face of Sinn Fein's rise and possible obtainment of power. It is hard for people with this view to hold back our opinions on this topic - look at the replies this thread has received! (I should also mention I have an intense feeling of distrust and dislike towards many of the Sinn Fein politicians I have seen/heard and that obviously clouds my perspective)

You are 100% correct that people are passing off opinion as fact.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by bonkey

Seriously, dude. Can't you just accept the point I was making - that too many people are passing off opinion as fact here when it comes to dissing Sinn Fein. All I'm looking for is a bit more honesty in the wording of things....and lets not forget that this is a double-edged sword.

jc

Oh fair enough, it is my opinion and probably of some others on the way things are just as it's only Mighty mouses opinion and that of some others that we are in for an SF government down here one day.
Maybe we are but I'd hazzard a guess that it would be one much different from the SF , we know of today because I don't think affluent people in the south are willing to flock to socialism in the way he thinks they are.
They didn't when things were really bad in the 80's and they certainly won't when times here are as good for most as they are.

So it woudl seem that either idiots are coming out in force like never before, or there's something wrong with your logic....and you've already clarified that you weren't implying the former when you said that you didn't mean to imply that Sinn Fein supporters were idiots.....

It was never my intention to lable SF voters as idiots.
But Irish one told us here on this thread that a lot of them are voters who otherwise wouldn't bother.
To which I countered that , SF are good at getting this vote out but it's a finite pool and the real challenge for SF is how they adapt their policies to make them acceptable to those who are better off and would perceive them as having to raise taxes to impliment them.

By the way I've noticed from being at election counts that a lot of SF votes are non transferable, further inforcing my view that a lot of them are a unique vote.

As regards your point on Sinn Féin knocking:
I look at it slightly different to you in that I would have thought minus the name calling it should be a healthy excercise for any supporter of that party because the lack of love for them is very much out there in certain quarters and some feel it's their responsibility( not me necessarally except when I see something here that I can give a view on ) to put foward what they perceive as a dangerous aspect to them.
Sinn Féin are unique in that respect.

I haven't seen too many Fianna Fáil are great threads here either but theres quite a few that turn into FF or PD bashing threads.
Theres not as much fervour in them maybe as those that include SF for the simple reason that there have been a lot of people killed as a result of those that SF have links to and people are understandably sensitive on that issue.

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber

It was never my intention to lable SF voters as idiots.
But Irish one told us here on this thread that a lot of them are voters who otherwise wouldn't bother.
To which I countered that , SF are good at getting this vote out but it's a finite pool and the real challenge for SF is how they adapt their policies to make them acceptable to those who are better off and would perceive them as having to raise taxes to impliment them.

What I meant was that there has always being a very large ammount of people who don't vote, and this is one group that SF is now getting support from, IMO thats because these people felt far removed from the politics of this country and didn't think they could make a difference. SF are working extremely hard on the ground and some of these people now don't feel so far removed and see SF as a way to have their say. To say that these people are unintelligent is simply ignorant.


I have been discussing SF here for a long time, and I'm sure people are fed up reading my posts on this topic, but I feel as a supporter of SF that it would be wrong to let people come on here and say what they like without some comeback. I present my opinion as just that "an opinion" and I have always respected those who offer a different opinion, but what gets at me is when people represent opinions as facts. I believe the main reason for this is because they can't move on they can't see that SF is now a peaceful democratic party who is helping to bring about peace and change.

Regards,
Alan

Sand

I like your reference to reality, speaking for majorities,intelligent people, democratic values etc yet refuse to accept the GFA or Sinn Feins democratic mandate and the right to hold one.

Theyve a right top a democratic mandate - no one disputes this. They do not have a right to a terrorist army that remains ready at any time to go back "to what we know best" in the words of Francie Molloy, SF politician - "they havent gone away you know" as Gerry Adams said, disagreeing with republicans who claim theyve fully embraced the peace process.

Democracy only works because people agree to negotiate rather than fight, because the public have faith in the public institutions, and every participant must have the confidence that if the other side doesnt get their way that they wont go back to murdering people.

Anybody who values liberal democracy and the rule of law, regardless of their political persuasion should be united on this point. That SF supporters and the SF party do not consider this to be a problem does not bode well for the future of liberal democracy in Ireland if SF gets anywhere near the steering wheel. Chimps have gone into space, it doesnt make them astronauts. SF can get elected, it doesnt make them democrats.

His comment about Sinn Féin supporters may have been somewhat unwarranted,

Actually I thought it was quite mild and indeed sensitive. There are 3 groups of people who vote for SF - those who dont care that theyre a front for the IRA, those who dont know theyre a front for the IRA, and those who refuse to accept theyre a front for the IRA. I only described the last two, the first Id use stronger terms for.

However, in my own limited experience, others vote for SF as simply a protest vote, with limited knowledge of the party as a whole. I don't know if this is the group to which Sand was referring as the "average Sinn Féin voter". For the moment, I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Ill bite my tongue when it comes to describing the people who vote for SF as a "fcuk you to the government". Theyll get the government they deserve, wholl hopefully hold them in about as much contempt as I do. There are plenty of lunatic fringe parties like the SWP or independants they could vote for as a "protest vote" that dont involve support for a terrorist front.

The whole concept of a protest vote is idiotic - how do you say this ballot was cast in protest because they dont like the ruling party, and this ballot was cast because they agree with the parties aims and methods. You cant. for all intents and purposes SF is entitled to say their vote was not a protest vote...anyone who values the democratic process certainly hopes it was but theres nothing beyond hearsay to say it was.

Oh and with all this talk of opinons and facts....

Fact One: Adams was part of the IRA delegation to negotiate with Whitelaw.

Fact Two: Convicted IRA bomber has said Adams was her commanding officer.

Fact Three: Adams has been named as a member of the Army Council of the IRA along with 3 other SF politicians in a well known paper, based on Irish and British police intelligence.

Fact Four: Adams has not sued to clear his good name, the article has not been retracted, the Observer has not apologised and not paid him compensation last I heard.

No one has yet presented a plausible conclusion other than Adams has been high in the chain of command of the IRA for a long time, is now on the Army Council and hasnt sued because hed lose the case. Or are some people waiting for the IRA to publish a guest list for their annual Christmas Party in the national papers before they see the truth?

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1
To say that these people are unintelligent is simply ignorant.

I never said those that vote Sinn Féin were uninteligent.
I said nothing of the sort about them.
I merely proffered the question as to why people who are inteligent think Sinn Féin have a private army.
They are inteligent people, so if they are of that impression, there must be something to it.
You know no smoke without fire etc.
All along I'm presenting that this is a perception thats out there thats as undeniable as anthing you present and difficult to counter when you see convicted IRA murderers being féted at Sinn Féin Árdfheiseanna.

I find it disengenous of you to be referring to me as having said Sinn Féin voters aren't inteligent when in the last several posts proior to when you have said it now, I had been saying over and over that my use of the word "inteligence" was to point out something about non SF voters and that 92% of those who voted in the last election used that inteligence to come to vote for parties or individuals other than Sinn Féin.

I believe the main reason for this is because they can't move on they can't see that SF is now a peaceful democratic party who is helping to bring about peace and change.

With respect don't you think that it is outside the bounds of your responsibility as an opinion holder to be telling those that dislike SF for whatever reason,that they should move on or stating that they can't move on when it's simply a matter that they cannot forgive and forget as easily as you seem to be.

Perhaps you cannot understand either how someone like me or the two moderators of this board that I refered to earlier cannot vote SF while they perceive them to have a private army and access to tonnes of weapons.

Mind you if it makes you feel any better, I do believe that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness probably have a big say in the running of the IRA and as such I'm fairly confident that while thats the case, the IRA won't return to bombing and shooting on the vast scale that they did before because Adams et al know SF would be fookered if they did and a major part of their central priority at the moment is electoral .

That said, I'll repeat again my other view that ultimate electoral sucess for SF would be brought about by pandering to the selfish needs of people who work hard to bring home lots of money to buy that house and drive those two cars while their kids are in that privately run creche.
Ignoring their views, ie middle income Ireland by over taxing them would be something that wouldn't bring SF up to the size of FG labour or that other party.

Villain

Originally posted by Rock Climber
I never said those that vote Sinn Féin were uninteligent.
I said nothing of the sort about them.

Maybe not directly but it was very easy to take it up that way, I think others may have taken it up the same way, apologys if I misunderstood

Originally posted by Rock Climber
With respect don't you think that it is outside the bounds of your responsibility as an opinion holder to be telling those that dislike SF for whatever reason,that they should move on or stating that they can't move on when it's simply a matter that they cannot forgive and forget as easily as you seem to be.

I simply stated my opinion as to why I believe people try to represent their opinion as fact, it's simply my opinion.

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Perhaps you cannot understand either how someone like me or the two moderators of this board that I refered to earlier cannot vote SF while they perceive them to have a private army and access to tonnes of weapons.

I have said MANY MANY times that I can understand why people would have such opinions, but that doesn't give you or anyone the right to present your opinion as facts to others.

Originally posted by Rock Climber
That said, I'll repeat again my other view that ultimate electoral sucess for SF would be brought about by pandering to the selfish needs of people who work hard to bring home lots of money to buy that house and drive those two cars while their kids are in that privately run creche.
Ignoring their views, ie middle income Ireland by over taxing them would be something that wouldn't bring SF up to the size of FG labour or that other party.

Well I wouldn't regard people earning over €60,000-€70,000 as being Middle Income Ireland.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by irish1
I have said MANY MANY times that I can understand why people would have such opinions, but that doesn't give you or anyone the right to present your opinion as facts to others.

On this forum.
However out on the stump you will face people presenting their opinions as facts every day.
Which is directly what I'm getting at.
It is indeed very like meeting people on the stump who believe as fact that all politicians are on the take, similarally you are going to meet a lot with sceptical views on SF.
Can I say thats a fact? Even though I cannot for certain or at all for that matter say who you have met.
We probably mix in different circles anyway, but in my circle of people I've met,there have been lots of opinions presented as facts with respect to everything under the sun and especially in politics.

Well I wouldn't regard people earning over €60,000-€70,000 as being Middle Income Ireland.

You might want to re adjust the figures you take as an example there as a couple living in a €300,000 house earning that amount might be paying €15,000 a year on their 20-25 yr mortgage and another five or six grand on child minding, not to mention another 15 or 20 k in tax.
The rest is what they have to live on, including feeding and clothing the kids.
I would suggest you take €80k as your cut off point to be fair.
Mind you as you know if you put the rates of tax on salaries above that to a penal rate then you obliterate incentive and cause a brain drain just like we had in the 80's.
Tax is not dissimilar to the other laws of supply and demand, you put it up too high and the incentive to progress,do overtime, and suceed in your job declines.
Keeping it at an acceptable rate maximises the take from it and therefore the coffers of the public purse from which it is spent.

Victor

Regarding the overlap between the IRA and SF, Martin McGuiness is on record as saying that the dogs in the street know.

ecksor

Originally posted by Sand
Actually I thought it was quite mild and indeed sensitive. There are 3 groups of people who vote for SF - those who dont care that theyre a front for the IRA, those who dont know theyre a front for the IRA, and those who refuse to accept theyre a front for the IRA. I only described the last two, the first Id use stronger terms for.

Oh go on, don't hold back now. Incidentally, I tend to see some irony in a post that attacks a party for not being democratic when the military strategy was borne out a deep rooted belief that the nationalist community would never been allowed to participate in that process in NI. Similarly, to quote having faith in the public institutions as a prerequisite for democracy contrasts nicely with the roots of the current IRA, born in a climate where a unionist lobby could bend the public institutions to do their bidding against the nationalist population. Stormont was a "Protestant parliament for protestant people" after all. Does the first of your groups include people who think that the necessity of the IRA is a regretable fact of life?