Willy O'Dea's reply to Sinn Féin criticism

Rock Climber

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I love to have a loyalist-bashing thread. Problem is, is that there are no loyalists on Boards.ie/politics.

I can't believe the obvious hasn't been pointed out.

Ex or currently reforming loyalist paramilitaries aren't running for office in the Republic of Ireland.
So theres no immediate political cause to give them the level of scrutiny that Sinn Féin are getting here.

Other than the usual comment that one could have on them with regard to NI and what they are up to there.
Theres a relative amount of loyalist/paramilitary bashing, relative that is to their existance politically.

I mean it's like asking for a ming the merciless bashing thread( if you don't like canabis or that guy that was elected up in Roscommon or was it Leitrim or sligo...)
Theres no need or demand for it, it would be a speciality request.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I find your logic strange Reefbreak. You questioned my knowledge and understanding of NI. What kind of a response did you expect?

Well, I'd question it given that you have accused the SDLP of being a "whatever Britain wants party" and ergo your nationalist /Republican brethren of being the same in that they voted Hume in such numbers as to bring his vote in the Euro Elections close to that of Paisley.

Not to mention the fact that prior to the peace process and while the IRA were actively shooting and bombing , it was the SDLP that were getting MPs elected and not Sinn Féin, for obvious reasons, the IRA campaign did not have majority nationalist/catholic support.
It certainly also had negligible support on the island as a whole.

Mighty_Mouse

Ex or currently reforming loyalist paramilitaries aren't running for office in the Republic of Ireland.

Suppose depends how you view the Island of Ireland

ecksor

Originally posted by Rock Climber
Ex or currently reforming loyalist paramilitaries aren't running for office in the Republic of Ireland.
So theres no immediate political cause to give them the level of scrutiny that Sinn Féin are getting here.

That's a fine reason if all you are interested in is the politics in the Republic of Ireland and that all the posters on boards are only resident and interested in the Republic of Ireland.

(note, I don't want a 'loyalist bashing' thread, just not quite getting the attitudes here).

Rock Climber

Originally posted by ecksor
(note, I don't want a 'loyalist bashing' thread, just not quite getting the attitudes here).

LoL
I know,
Nightmare scenario, given the crack with this thread

That's a fine reason if all you are interested in is the politics in the Republic of Ireland and that all the posters on boards are only resident and interested in the Republic of Ireland.

It seems to be the case alright, that there is an ambivalence towards Northern Ireland in the South, except where it directly affects people.
I'd have made my comment in relation to the obvious fact that posters here aren't starting a thread a minute dealing with loyalism or loyalist violence.

I'd guess too that the age profile here means that most posters don't have an imminent knowledge of the day to day shootings that went on in NI, ( ie they were kids when it was on the news regularally in the 80's and early 90's and more interested in watching CITV or summat back then )
That would make a working knowledge of some of what went on as a result of loyalist terrorism fairly hazy too.
Put that together with the fact that people related to them don't directly want to enter politics here, and it amounts to an ambivalence or a "it just doesn't matter"

I'm presuming at this stage that Mighty mouse is ignoring my valid comment on his sweeping statement regarding the SDLP.

ecksor

Originally posted by Rock Climber
LoL
I know,

Hm, I don't think you do.

Was that an agreement with the assumptions I put forward? I wasn't putting them forward as universally true.

Mighty_Mouse

I'm presuming at this stage that Mighty mouse is ignoring my valid comment on his sweeping statement regarding the SDLP.

Now, now Rockclimber! You know I would never ignore you!

Thats a sweeping statement ,care to back it up?

"I, [namel, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God." I'll have to come back to this when I get more time.

Feel free to remind me!

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Now, now Rockclimber! You know I would never ignore you! "I, [namel, do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God." I'll have to come back to this when I get more time.

Feel free to remind me!

The oath of allegiance to the queen for to sit at westminister?? thats a condition of sitting in the chamber its the same for all mp's who want to vote on legislation for the whole of the UK, not just NI
Thats a bit lame.
You do realise that it is herself that will have to sign the legislation uniting the 6 counties back into a 32 county Republic.
I'd also hazzard a guess that many nationalists hold two passports and I know at least one Republican friend of mine that does( yeah I have friends who are Sinn Féin supporters, I never let political disagreements get personal, but I wouldn't have anyone that supported murder or who still venorates murder as a friend )

So have you any where to show me where the SDLP historically have done the bidding of the British Government?
By the way if you want to get that technical, You'd have to say that SF also do the British governments bidding and are firmly in her majestys pocket.
Indeed I do believe her majesty is one of Sinn Féins biggest financial contributers currently.
I doubt they leave the cheques uncashed.
That kind of nullifies your point.

Mighty_Mouse

Thats a bit lame.

I'm sorry. I just don't see how Republicans can swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen.But "the stoops" wouldn't have a problem with. Historically being the party to "take what their given". A party that has managed to become more hysterically obsessed with the growth of Sinn Fein than pushing nationalist issues IMO. Every debate I've seen involving SDLP has resulted in them looking like unionists in their efforts to disagree with Sinn Fein. Using Brid Rogers as a spoiling candidate in 2002 election was typical. Their voters have typically being the catholic, upper-class (less-affected) vote which is reflected in their repetitive policies. IMO as a party they don't seem overly enthuastic about ending partition which is something I have a real problem with.(lack of interest in southern politics is also typical). They were also the party who advocated the ending of the ban on british soldiers playing GAA (way too quickly, before demilitarisation, investigations into collusion secured etc). They were also very quick to "welcome" and celebrate the last visit of queen vic!!

But I have to admit. The completely politically stupid move to join a policing board is something which has set back policing reform in the north by years in my opinion. Its the singular incident which makes me really dislike the SDLP. Another anti-Sinn Fein first, republican interests second, typical move by the SDLP if you ask me.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I'm sorry. I just don't see how Republicans can swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen.

Well I wouldn't argue with peoples "held" principals and thats one of Sinn Féins unbendables allright, but they have gone along with British government policy at times, theres no denying that, they have no record of 100% opposition to British government policy, just as the SDLP have no record of 100% support or anything like it.

Alegiance to the queen and swearing of such oaths to a person thats not God ( if you believe in God ) doesn't or shouldn't mean jack shít to be honest.
The queen poops on the toilet the same as the rest of us and as long as thats remembered, getting ones objectives democratically and by using the democratic process of the jurisdiction of the moment should be maximised in my view.

That said,we've been down the road of the policing bodies argument before.John Hume is a wise man who has the benefit of a wize old shoulder on his head and I don't see him actively campaigning against them
The way I see it, its a case of SF wanting a 100% win and the other side not wanting any budge either-CRAZY to be honest, but one has to look at the inside from the outside without the clouds of conditioning to see that and thats not to be expected from hard liners.
Neither side who have such extreme positions win they meet somewhere in the middle.
Where exactly that middle is, takes a long , long time(especially in this case) to configure.

They were also the party who advocated the ending of the ban on british soldiers playing GAA (way too quickly, before demilitarisation, investigations into collusion secured etc). They were also very quick to "welcome" and celebrate the last visit of queen vic!!

Well You must be aware the lifting of the GAA ban is very popular in the south too.
Also when Prince Charles last did a walk about in Dublin he was met with cheering crowds.
Thats the reality of the situation

ecksor

Originally posted by Rock Climber
The queen poops on the toilet the same as the rest of us

Sorry, have you got a link to back that up please?

sceptre

Originally posted by ecksor
Sorry, have you got a link to back that up please?

I'll bet she doesn't go at all. Prince Charles travels with his own loo seat (presumably he doesn't take it on planes as hand-luggage) but Betsy makes do with whatever she finds (despite the rumours of a travelling white leather seat)

Rock Climber

Originally posted by ecksor
Sorry, have you got a link to back that up please?

Now that would even contravene the illuminati charter!
I'll mail philip,he'll be able to ask someone to confirm if she poops on the toilet like the rest of us.
Common enough method of saying theres nothing special about someone though especially to a royalist.

Mighty_Mouse

The queen poops on the toilet the same as the rest of us

and the reason to swear an oath to her therefore is? No, I'm sorry the oath thing is a matter of principal. How any person could even call themselves an Irish man nevermind a republican, and swear an oath of allegiance to a british monarch is beyond me. It completely contradicts any opposition a person could have to british rule in the first place.
Again my point here is that it doesnt mean a party should abstain from the political process/debate. For example Sinn Fein are now legally challenging the oath in order to be able ot take their seats without taking the oath.

John Hume is a wise man who has the benefit of a wize old shoulder on his head and I don't see him actively campaigning against them

Theres many old wise men around. Because John Hume doesnt do it......its ok? What about recently deceased Joe Cahill? He was old and wise?

The way I see it, its a case of SF wanting a 100% win and the other side not wanting any budge

See, I have to smile everytime you say this. Sinn Fein are asking for a transparent, democratic, non-corrupt, trustworthy police force for all. How exactly do you wish them to compromise on the fairest demand ever made?

CRAZY to be honest, but one has to look at the inside from the outside without the clouds of conditioning to see that and thats not to be expected from hard liners

"Clouds of conditioning" ........
Patten: there should be a "new dawn in policing".
Sinn Fein: yes lets have a new dawn for EVERYBODY INCLUSIVELY
UUP/DUP: No way. How can you dismantle on of the most effective police forces in the world.
Sinn Fein: Republicans won't stand for anything less than a trustworthy police force and won't participate unless necessary changes are made. If the SDLP stand with us the unionists and brits wont have a choice but to implement Patten.
SDLP: Them Shinners are always making extreme demands. Lets "stoop" and take what were given. Maybe it will work out for the best. Sure we can wait and maybe in 50 years we'll have a police force

Well You must be aware the lifting of the GAA ban is very popular in the south too.

Yes. But I never said the south gave a toss about the north these days. Sure, "they should cut it off and float it out to sea" view expressed in here is common enough.

It wasn't the southerners being asked to let the brits join when up to the recent years Catholics were being murdered for wearing GAA shirts.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
and the reason to swear an oath to her therefore is? No, I'm sorry the oath thing is a matter of principal. How any person could even call themselves an Irish man nevermind a republican, and swear an oath of allegiance to a british monarch is beyond me. It completely contradicts any opposition a person could have to british rule in the first place.

But it's a fact of life under legal British rule as it stands at the moment.
Good luck to anyone that wants to change it.
As I've said I've no probs with principaled stands against it, as long as you don't kill someone in the process.

Theres many old wise men around. Because John Hume doesnt do it......its ok? What about recently deceased Joe Cahill? He was old and wise?

Crucial difference between the two would be the attitude to killing people.
I lose respect for anyone that condones murder or venorates it full stop.
Did Joe Cahill ever put himself up for the public vote during the height of the IRA campaign ?
How was his support?

See, I have to smile everytime you say this. Sinn Fein are asking for a transparent, democratic, non-corrupt, trustworthy police force for all. How exactly do you wish them to compromise on the fairest demand ever made?

When you don't negotiate or comprimise with over half the people in the state you live in, it's neither fair,equal or democratic as I see it as you ignore the majorities view point.
Comprimise is a question of taking the higher moral ground.

Yes. But I never said the south gave a toss about the north these days. Sure, "they should cut it off and float it out to sea" view expressed in here is common enough.
It wasn't the southerners being asked to let the brits join when up to the recent years Catholics were being murdered for wearing GAA shirts.

Ironic that you should recognise that the people of the state you want to be unified with don't give a toss about the north.
They do give a toss actually in my view, thats why they never supported IRA violence except for a negilible minority.

Mighty_Mouse

Crucial difference between the two would be the attitude to killing people.
I lose respect for anyone that condones murder or venorates it full stop.
.

Nelson Mandela?

When you don't negotiate or comprimise with over half the people in the state you live in, it's neither fair,equal or democratic as I see it as you ignore the majorities view point.

The majority agreed to policing reform. Are you still argueing against having a completely transparent, fair and accountable police force!!!:eek: I just can't believe that anyone can see a problem with such a request.

Ironic that you should recognise that the people of the state you want to be unified with don't give a toss about the north

How is it ironic exactly? Regardless things are slowly changing with the growth of Sinn Fein.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Suppose depends how you view the Island of Ireland

As a single country, part of which is occupied by England?

Yep.

Sand

Your stance, as I understand it now, is that Sinn Fein just shouldn't be voted for, that a vote for them is a vote against democracy (is it democratic to believe that another person's vote is a wrong vote?) and any discussion that assumes they have a right to be taken seriously in the democratic process is impossible, therefore you actually prefer that they maintain their links with the IRA because you believe it is an honest representation of what demons they actually are.

Yes and Yes and Yes ( Its definitly democratic to belive another persons vote is the wrong vote - If I belived it was the right vote I would be making that vote too ) and No, I dont want them to remain linked to the IRA - I disagree with them being linked with the IRA, I dont think a party with such contempt for liberal democracy should be given a free ride about their symbiotic link to a terrorist organisation, assuming they were to break links with the IRA and militant republicanism then they would just be the SWP with ultra nationalism thrown in - not my cup of tea but then there isnt a party in Ireland which is.

What's the point of posting on the politics forum if not to try to post in a persuasive or at least a thought-provoking manner? Or too read in the hope that you'll find something that makes you think. That doesn't imply dishonesty.

Does the politics board imitate life, or does life imitate the politics board? Anyone posting here in the belief that they can persuade people over the internet to their point of view is deluded. I can think of only once where I had a discussion with someone and they ended up fully agreeing with my point of view, and that was on something far less divisive than politics.

The reason I post here, given the above, is because I want to find out what I think, and whether my view is able to stand up to criticism from others. Thats the absolute maximum you can get out of a politics discussion over the internet.

How any person could even call themselves an Irish man nevermind a republican, and swear an oath of allegiance to a british monarch is beyond me. It completely contradicts any opposition a person could have to british rule in the first place.

Really? Men respected greatly in the Republican pantheon did it or would have done it had they not been killed by fellow Republicans. Collins would have, Devalera did calling it a meaningless pledge - that was worth the lives of 700 Irishmen and untold damage to the Irish state in a pointless and foolish civil war. Bloody west Brits eh?

ecksor

Originally posted by Sand
Its definitly democratic to belive another persons vote is the wrong vote - If I belived it was the right vote I would be making that vote too

I suppose I should have used the word 'invalid' instead of 'wrong'.

The reason I post here, given the above, is because I want to find out what I think, and whether my view is able to stand up to criticism from others. Thats the absolute maximum you can get out of a politics discussion over the internet.

That makes a certain amount of sense, but it'd make more sense if your manner was less aggravating. I get the feeling that your contempt for some opposing points of views shows up in your posts in a way that doesn't help to facilitate a proper examination of your own views by others. If you at least pretended to be trying to be convincing then the discussions might be more productive or less irritating for a lot of people to read.

Villain

God is this thread still going!.

I gave up on it a while ago, I ended up having to say the same things over and over.

Sand I enjoy reading the majority of your posts, I think you should concentrate on putting your opinion forward more so than trying to knock other peoples.

SF Parrot.:D

AngelofFire

ReefBreak wrote:

The rest of the article details why Sinn Féin are no too dissimilar to the Nazis. Well done Willy O'Dea, more please.

Like I said before: Sinn Féin = The Irish Nazi Party.

Lets see

Nazi parties

*Anti Immigrant
*Anti Gay
*A general believe that their race is superior
*Racist

Sinn Fein

*Pro immigrant
*Anti Homophobe
*A believe that people are equal(hence the campagin for no vote in referendrum).
*Anti Racist.

David-[RLD]-

Well done, AngelOfFire.

And let's not forget that Sinn Féin are Left-wing, while Nazis are Right-wing. Righties generally hate Lefties and a lot of the time, vice-versa. Fear of the Left is what brought about the rise of Fascism in the first place.

So calling Sinn Féin a Nazi party is completely ridiculous.

Rock Climber

AngelofFire wrote:

Lets see
*A believe that people are equal(hence the campagin for no vote in referendrum).
*Anti Racist.

If thats the case why do they venerate/idolise people who have killed protestants while their victims families and friends are still alive?
If they are anti racist why do they idolise the killers of people whose only "crime" was either being protestant or a loyalty to the crown?
Doesn't sound very equal to me.

Mighty_Mouse

If thats the case why do they venerate/idolise people who have killed protestants while their victims families and friends are still alive?

Firstly, who's they? Are we still talking about Sinn Fein here?
Secondly, do you even accept that there has just been a war in Northern Ireland for 30 years?

I see the point that your trying to force here but don't accept it. Personally I've always thought that Sinn Fein are in the ideal situation to connect with the marginalised members of our society given that they have been marginalised themselves for so many years.
[HTML]killers of people whose only "crime" was either being protestant or a loyalty to the crown?[/HTML] Um! war?

Are you saying that because of eniskillen Sinn Fein cannot stand for equal rights?

Rock Climber

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Secondly, do you even accept that there has just been a war in Northern Ireland for 30 years?

What war?
Countries and their people declare war not terrorists.
Can you show me the mandate for this 30 years of so called "war"
SF's vote only started rising to a respectable level after the ceasefires and you know what would happen to it if the IRA went back to bombing and shooting-yes there would be a free fall especially in the 26 counties.

Personally I've always thought that Sinn Fein are in the ideal situation to connect with the marginalised members of our society given that they have been marginalised themselves for so many years.

Well to be honest, there are socialists out there who I'd have a lot of respect for and who don't have the baggage of being able to use throw away comments like " They haven't gone away you know " - yes and you know who said that!
Joe Higgins-yes he'll get my vote for socialism for quite some time to come untill the spectre of IRA un democratic killing and shooting is a dim and thankfully distant memory.

Are you saying that because of eniskillen Sinn Fein cannot stand for equal rights?

Well they can be accused of hypocrisy as equality isn't exclusive to one area of life or one sections well being.
Venerating those that killed people whose wives,family and friends are still around for example doesn't mix with the notion of equality.
It contradicts it totally.
I do understand Sinn Féins position and yours though, it would be impossible for them to abandon the very people that they have persuaded to go down the democratic as opposed to the violence route.
But you must also expect that a lot of people will take a considerable amount of time to forget their deeds during that 30 years and an equal amount of time to trust that the IRA wont go back to what they have shown they know best ie violence.

AngelofFire

actually republicanism and anti protestantism are two completely different things. Republican sinn fein`s dublin base is known as the Wolfe tone cumann. Wolfe tone was an irish republican and protestant.

i am in the church of ireland and i gave a sinn fein candidate a high preference in the local elections.

tho i am not a regular sinn fein supporter.

Cork

AngelofFire wrote:

actually republicanism and anti protestantism are two completely different things.

IRA activity of shooting members of the Irish security forces and their various rackets don't show a very high level of protestantism.

Vat lost because of fuel rackets means less money for eduacation, social welfare & health.

do you even accept that there has just been a war in Northern Ireland for 30 years?

SF/IRA accepts the reality of partition. They take their seats in the Assembly and Dail. This has indeed been a sea change for SF/IRA. I have no doubt that they will come around and also take their seats in the NI policing board.

But it was the SDLP who were the most progressive political party in Northern Ireland. They always stood aganist violence as a means to achieve change. A lot of SDLP policies ended up in the Good Friday agreement which is a debt that this country will owe them forever.

AngelofFire

Cork wrote:

.

But it was the SDLP who were the most progressive political party in Northern Ireland. They always stood aganist violence as a means to achieve change. A lot of SDLP policies ended up in the Good Friday agreement which is a debt that this country will owe them forever.

I wholeheatedley agree, John Hume really deserved the Nobel peace price he will go down as one of this country`s greatest ever political figures.

Cork

Nuala O'Loan's findings about what has become known as "Stormontgate" and her conclusion that the police search of the Sinn Fein offices was in fact justified.

The Ombudsman found no evidence to suggest the search was politically motivated or was designed to damage Sinn Fein and the peace process.

SF really has to take their seats on the policng board. The alternative is punishment beatings and kangaroo courts.

Mighty_Mouse

But you must also expect that a lot of people will take a considerable amount of time to forget their deeds during that 30 years and an equal amount of time to trust that the IRA wont go back to what they have shown they know best ie violence.

More and more each day "forgetting" by the looks of things

SF really has to take their seats on the policng board

You mean now that their trust in the justice system is increased?

Nuala O'Loan's findings about what has become known as "Stormontgate" and her conclusion that the police search of the Sinn Fein offices was in fact justified.

I'm really not sure here. But did she say the were "justified" or "found no evidence that they were not politically motivated"? Politically motivated or not there are several facts that need to be remembered:
1.No evidence of intelligence gathering was found in the raid on the Sinn Féin Offices.
2.Two disks removed by the PSNI were returned within days
3.Charges against people relating to intelligence gathering in government buildings have been dropped
4.The media were present for the raid to create maximum effect
5.It was heavy handed operation with scores of armed PSNI in riot gear
6. The operation was directed by the Special Branch
7. It resulted in huge political damage for Sinn Fein
8.It succeeded in seeing the political institutions collapsed

Again, collapsed the government for no reason. Thats why republicans are conviced it was politically motivated.