Can you restrict residency based on Irish-language fluency?

Sand

Well its xenophobic, discriminatory and counter productive. The Gaeltachts are dying, bitter last stands arent going to change anything.

That said, the only people being punished are the people trying to seel the appts as theyre going to get a lesser price than they would normally as their demand is dramaically slashed. Its actually a textbook case of how bigotry is punished by the market.

spongebob

In May 2003 Galway adopted a county development plan , there are conditions for developments in Gaeltacht areas and in other heritage type areas, not all relate to language .......

In Jan-July 2004, less than a year later, the PLANNERS have completely ignored the guidelines in that plan and decided not to enforce them. The total failure of the planners (again) to enforce planning in Galway is the issue that has people up in arms.

This would be a good one for An Taisce, tasked as they are with the protection of heritage in its broader sense. Next thing the Galway the planners will allow holiday apartment complexes in National Parks if they get away with this one.

A more corrupt and inept bunch of sleeveens I have never seen

M

AmenToThat

This is not people in Irish speaking ares forcing people in English speaking areas to speak Irish, this is people trying to protect the heritage of their own area.
So personally I really dont care what laws are being broken by this ruling!
Anything that helps (within reason) preserve the Irish language within regions that still speak the language is ok in my opinion.

de5p0i1er

Well if this is the way the country is going I'll stay the hell away from these areas if were not good enough to live there because we don't speak Irish then I'll spend my money else where.

spongebob

They cost about €300k for a 2 Bed Apartment . Most people cannot afford to live in them anyway.

M

sceptre

Originally posted by de5p0i1er
Well if this is the way the country is going I'll stay the hell away from these areas if were not good enough to live there because we don't speak Irish then I'll spend my money else where.

Nice chips from Nico's in Moycullen though. Can't remember whether Moycullen is Gaeltacht or Galltacht. Either way if you're in Knocknacarra and notice that no-one speaks Irish in this current Gaeltacht area of Galway city, it's worth the five mile trip.

All joking aside, is Spiddal one of those areas (like Furbo, HQ (I think, could be wrong) of An Roinn Gnóthaí Pobail, Tuaithe agus Gaeltachta) where daily usage has dropped below 50%? Is the TG4 outfit there keeping it above the waterline?

In 1926 it was recommended that Gaeltacht areas be defined as areas that had more than 80% Irish usage. By 1956, the last boundary revision, standards had dropped somewhat to any area a local councillor could get into the grants scheme. And lots of 50%+ Irish-language areas as well. Knocknacarra came under the latter description before they started building hundreds of houses there. These days it's down to about 1-2% there. Still grant-enabled though. Muck would obviously know far more about this than I (given that he presumably doesn't live 80 miles away like diddums here does). He speaks the language too so he's two up.

Holy sweet mother jacob, three hundred grand for an apartment in Spiddal? Pay me three hundred grand in small unmarked bills and I'll happily speak urdu for the next fifty years but easy access to nice chips and no motorway isn't worth that much to me. And there's only a Supermacs in Spiddal. Last time I passed through (months ago) I noticed a big development sign there with a mention of apartments available to me if I spoke the language of my great great grandfather but I didn't think they'd be that much.

robbie1876

Haha, I think the developers are trying to pull a fast one here. They know there is a certain Irish speaking minority population that would love for a chance to pass a test and be able to ask their neighbours "An bhuil tu ag cup o' Suicra" or whatever.

So the developers have lashed up the price, using Gaeilge as their marketing gimmick. While I am no Irish speaker, I am saddened that the language is being used to line the developer's pockets.

arcadegame2004

The Government is wasting taxpayers' money by refusing to redraw the boundaries of the Gaeltacht. It is unbelievable, in particular, that they insist on parts of Co.Waterford remaining designated Gaeltacht areas. It would be sheer lunacy if they were to bring in restrictions on residency in Co.Waterford on the basis of not being an Irish-speaker. Is this planned??

spongebob

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
The Government is wasting taxpayers' money by refusing to redraw the boundaries of the Gaeltacht.

Correct. Half the population of the Official Gaeltacht nationally is in Galway City . There are more Nigerians and Romanians in the 'official ' Gaeltacht than daily Irish speakers .

At the moment the pace of development in Moycullen Barna Claregalway and Spiddal is frantic . All 4 are in the Gaeltacht but only Spiddal is worth the lingusitic exception and therefore worth the enfocement to the letter of teh County Development plan. Galway County Council have the same legal obligation in all 4 villages but to all practical purposes it is pointless enforcing it in the other 3 villages as they ceased to be Gaeltachts by the 1970's .

The developer in Spiddal has ridden roughshod over the planning process to such an extent that I can only conclude that the Council Planners have actively connived with him in so doing. Alternatively they are gross incompetents and should be sacked en masse. In order to bring some clarity and balance back into the planning process I hope the Council will draw the line here before they are brought to the High Court to have a backbone stiffening mechanism inserted forcibly from below. The County developement plan...for better or worse...has to last another 4 years. It will be crippled during that time if not enforced now.

The Developer was blasting on the site in March while there was a school open across the road. He was not even supposed to START the development until the Language plan was in place.

Thats why I think An Taisce should step into this particular argument.

BTW Sceptre , the same 2 Bed apartments are €350k in Barna (€500k in one location) , Spiddal is cheap

M

sceptre

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
It is unbelievable, in particular, that they insist on parts of Co.Waterford remaining designated Gaeltacht areas.

Indeed. Ireland's smallest Gaeltacht area. - 3 electoral divisions (the total number of EDs in the entire Gaeltacht is 154). However, and this will probably surprise the hell out of some people, the Waterford Gaeltacht is not only not at the bottom of the pile in terms of daily use, but of the Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht who speak Irish on a daily basis as a percentage of the population of those areas, An Rinn is actually at the top with 53% (1996 figures used by the 2002 Coimisiún na Gaeltachta report (I've a pdf, a quick google will get you the report) as they were the most recent at the time). It's Mayo taking the hammering at 36%-odd. Of course the default language in Ring is English (or at least it appeared to be last time I was there, same with Ballyvourney). These days, we're largely measuring ability and willingness.

There's obviously a good reason for this. The Waterford Gaeltacht is so small compared to the others (particularly Galway but Mayo as well) and relatively sparsely populated (Dungarvan is the nearest town, bit of a difference between that and Spiddal's relationship to Galway) that there aren't hordes of English speakers racing down there to sell nick-nacks or talk as Béarla while making glassware. Having said that, Ring still doesn't make it into the top 18 highlighted list of places where people actually speak Irish on a regular basis (the bulk of the glory there goes to Co Galway as you might expect).

Of course the usage in school by kids is still skewing the figures. We don't really have a million and a half people who "use" Irish on a daily basis if you eliminate the classrooms. the fgures are just as skewed in many of the Gaeltacht areas. The 1996 census revealed that in the 3-4 age group (just before school-going age) the percentage of dailt Irish speakers in the entire Gaeltacht was 44.4%, jumping to 76.1% in the 5-9 group as the kids go to school. The first figure is a fair indicator of the percentage of Gaeltacht kiddies learning the language at home. Drop a wee bit for the people who are lying about it and there you go.

As you say, it's a waste of taxpayers cash by refusing to redraw (or even reconsider) the Gaeltacht boundaries. I'd come at it from the additional point of view that it's pretty hard to send resources to help a language when you're duty bound to send those resources to areas where people never use it as well (in other words, apart from the odd additional tourist an English-speaking area might get because it gets a green blob on the map, the lack of focus of resources on the necessary area is hampering the progress of the area that needs and/or deserves it). That's regardless of whether the resources should be sent - if they're being sent they should really be going where they're supposed to be, for the purpose they're supposed to be. I'm reasonably sure that most people would agree with that.

Realistically there are very few fíor-Gaeltacht areas left. Little area of Kerry, a little nod in West Cork, an island off SW Cork with a population under 200, reasonable bits of Donegal, a few other small areas and a fair chunk of west Galway. We're honestly talking under 20,000 people at this point. Add in a few individual houses, omit all the schoolkids who won't be using it later (and that's most of the Gaelscoil kids as well) and it isn't much to speak of. Keeping the cash pointed at areas where Irish is never used and will never be used and it's making a mockery of the fund even on its own terms.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by Hobbes
Should I expect people in Germany to speak English for me? Or that all documents, etc should be translated to English for me just so I can move there?

This is really not the point. The point is that part of the commitment we take on as members of the EU has to do with freedom of movement. Irish people can move to anywhere in Germany, buy a home and generally go about our business. We are not obliged to learn German to do this.

Now you might find that not speaking German while living in Germany would be a practical obstacle to getting around, but there is no legal impediment. In the case of Spiddal, lack of knowledge of the Irish language is less of a practical obstacle but there is an attempt to put in a legal impediment that would, on the face of it, seem to conflict with our EU obligations not to discriminate on the basis of language.

That said, to change these rules you would have to find an EU national refused the right to buy one of these apartments because of failure to meet the Irish language requirement who was then willing to take the case to the Courts. That’s hardly likely. On balance I’d be willing to let Galway County Council follow its own lights.

Repealing the ludicrous Official Language Act of 2003 is a far more pressing concern.

Originally posted by Dancing duck
They're getting desperate, latest statistics show that only roughly 33% of Gaeltacht dwellers speak Irish on a daily basis. Hundreds of millions have been thrown at these areas in a bid to keep the natives speaking as Gaeilge. Grants are given for speaking Irish, for trying to speak Irish, for building a house in the area, for setting up a business in the area, for teaching your workers Irish, for keeping students, and for keeping tourists. The result has been an unmitigated failure; the creation of a virtual Gaeltacht that exists primarily in the minds of those who attempt to administrate it; Dublin-based bureaucrats.

I agree with almost everything you say. But I think you’ll actually find this does not have to do with ‘Dublin based bureaucrats’. The headquarters of Údarás na Gaeltachta is in Galway. It has to do with people ag caint as Bearla gach lá but wanting to retain the financial incentives that go with living in a Gaeltacht.

spongebob

Originally posted by ishmael whale
It has to do with people ag caint as Bearla gach lá but wanting to retain the financial incentives that go with living in a Gaeltacht.

There are far more Skanger speakers in Dublin than daily Irish speakers in Ring. It is undoubtedly THE most charming dialect of Hiberno English , lets get it its deserved recognition in the Constitution and then lets get it recognised as an Official working language of the EU too while we are at it .

'Giz a fag Anto '

M

This is really not the point. The point is that part of the commitment we take on as members of the EU has to do with freedom of movement. Irish people can move to anywhere in Germany, buy a home and generally go about our business. We are not obliged to learn German to do this.

But the thing is that this restriction is not being applied to a country nor a county as a whole. Its being applied to a development of housing. There are plenty of other housing schemes in the region that non-irish speakers can purchase. There is no discrimination here. If there was no other option, then yes, I'd agree with you, but there are other options.

And besides, at 300k apiece, its a limited segment of the country that's going to be excluded. And I don't know how many of the posters here on boards that are so against this issue, actually have the money to purchase such housing, or would be interested in Spiddeal if they did have the cash.....

ishmael whale

Originally posted by klaz
But the thing is that this restriction is not being applied to a country nor a county as a whole. Its being applied to a development of housing. There are plenty of other housing schemes in the region that non-irish speakers can purchase. There is no discrimination here. If there was no other option, then yes, I'd agree with you, but there are other options.

If a rule limits the choices of people on the basis of some ground – in this case language – then its discrimination. Now I agree a sense of proportion is needed. The language requirement only applies to this particular development at present. You could correctly say it does not greatly reduce the housing options open to non-Irish speakers. But it is wrong to say it has no impact.

It would equally be wrong not to appreciate that there is an issue of principle at stake. Presumably, if unchallenged, this could represent the shape of things to come. If a language criterion was established generally for new housing developments or even other fields of activity in areas deemed to be Gaeltachts this would have significance. This has no personal impact on me, but persons living and moving to Gaeltacht areas who do not have Irish could very well ask what is the meaning of freedom of movement in the EU if it can be restricted in this way.

oh come on. People are seeming to take this to extremes. freedom of movement is a farce. Its a lovely Idea, but its not currently in force. Can you honestly tell me that you are able to visit any part of the EU without some restriction being in place?

AS for this expanding outwards to affect other areas, I don't see how it could. This is for an irish speaking area. The people who desire to live in this area should have a capacity to speak irish. Otherwise why aren't theys seeking housing in any of the other housing developments in Galway or other parts of Ireland.

The people who are complaining about this are complaining for the sake of complaining. It doesn't have any affect on them. If any of the posters here can tell me that they'd honestly consider Spiddeal for their house, (and they're willing to pay 300k to buy it), I'll withdraw my objection to these complaints, but, until I do see someone claiming this, I'll consider this to be scare-mongering (or seeking trouble) for its own sake.

spongebob

They are free to move into the 90% of housing in Spiddal that is not subject to any restrictions on ownership or tenancy ....assuming they can afford to .

The 6 months qualification for Rent Relief has a FAR greater national impact on persons mobility......if you are poor and live at home then **** off back there even if there are no jobs where your home is . This regulation may be phrased in the first or second national languages but has the same impact in either .

Bad as the improperly enforced rules in Galway gaeltacht areas may appear to be on first reading they pale into insignificance as compared to the rules they have in Wickila `to keep the Dubs out (or to move the Dubs and the caravans down to Wexford in an orderly manner) . Yet I see no mention of Wickila here

M

ReefBreak

Originally posted by klaz
oh come on. People are seeming to take this to extremes. freedom of movement is a farce. Its a lovely Idea, but its not currently in force. Can you honestly tell me that you are able to visit any part of the EU without some restriction being in place?

Is there any other area in the EU where you are restricted from buying property because you can't speak the language? This is not sarcasm, but an actual question.

The people who are complaining about this are complaining for the sake of complaining. It doesn't have any affect on them. If any of the posters here can tell me that they'd honestly consider Spiddeal for their house, (and they're willing to pay 300k to buy it), I'll withdraw my objection to these complaints, but, until I do see someone claiming this, I'll consider this to be scare-mongering (or seeking trouble) for its own sake.

Bit of a moot point really. Plenty of the topics that we discuss here on boards.ie/politics don't affect us directly. But this issue could affect people here. It could certainly affect me, because Galway is a city that I (genuinely) may want to live in for a while in the future.

spongebob

Spiddal is not in Galway city, it is 10 miles away , you are probably thinking of living in Knocknacarra

M

Spiddal is not in Galway city, it is 10 miles away , you are probably thinking of living in Knocknacarra

Or Barna?

Bit of a moot point really. Plenty of the topics that we discuss here on boards.ie/politics don't affect us directly. But this issue could affect people here. It could certainly affect me, because Galway is a city that I (genuinely) may want to live in for a while in the future

Fair enough. However, I do think people are scaremongering over this issue. The Gaelteacht areas have been receiving aid for speaking Irish for years and I haven't seen too many people complaining about discrimination, since they're not receiving the same grants. Odd that its only when actual property comes into the equation, that discrimination becomes an issue. My family is from West Galway. I have relations in and around Cliften and Oughterard. I hope one day to have a house there. Actually, the house that my family has for generations is located near there. My Irish has almost disappeared. But I understand that if i wish to live in an all irish area, I should be able to speak Irish. Just as I'd learn German, if I wanted to live in Mannheim (near Frankfurt).

Is there any other area in the EU where you are restricted from buying property because you can't speak the language? This is not sarcasm, but an actual question.

I have no Idea.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by klaz
I do think people are scaremongering over this issue.

Just to be clear, I acknowledge that this is really just a barrier in principle and I have already said that on balance Galway County Council should be allowed to follow its own lights. The most directly impacted people will be others in Galway, and they can let their views be known to their local Councillors.

But, addressing the question posed at the start of this thread, their policy would seem to conflict with our EU requirements and this has to weigh against any more general application of this kind of principle.

I’d expect that a practical requirement to live in Germany would be to speak the language. But to live in Ireland, even in areas deemed to be Gaeltacht, Irish speaking is not a practical requirement. This imposition is a cultural thing. The German equivalent might be a requirement that you can recite chunks out of Goethe.

Originally posted by klaz
The Gaelteacht areas have been receiving aid for speaking Irish for years and I haven't seen too many people complaining about discrimination, since they're not receiving the same grants.

True, but people must inevitably point out that this policy has not preserved the language in those areas, and many beneficiaries of these resources are not actually Irish speakers.

David-[RLD]-

I don't really see a problem with it.. maybe it's because I'd gladly take the exam with the Irish that I have.

simu

I think that the Gaeltachtaí are special areas that need to be protected but I'm wary of this scheme - just because somebody passes a test in Irish doesn't mean they're going to speak the language every day.

And yes, the Gaeltacht boundaries ought to be redrawn. I also think that attempts to set up companies in these regions should be based on heritage and cultural work rather than manufacturing jobs. With the latter, you tend to get manager types who impose English coming in whereas if you have an enterprise where knowledge of Irish is one of the most important characteristics required, people are encouraged to speak and improve their knowledge of the language.

Also, parents should receive information in maternity hospitals about raising children with Irish and the benefits of bilingualism. The average person knows very little about linguistics and it appears that some parents are afraid their kids won't pick up English if it's not spoken at home.

beer enigma

For my ten penneth...or should that be cent, I find this scheme to be very wrong..

OK, let me set out my stall, I'm English, I've been here for 10 years & am married to an Irish Woman, have two Irish children and have no intention of leaving. I also have an Irish passport through residency, not marriage (I qualify through both and although thru' marriage is easier, wanted to go the formal route).

I'm very proud that my kids are Irish, want my kids to learn Irish & have seen the decline of languages in England - Cornish etc, let alone UK, Welsh, Scottish. I fully support the programme to restrict planning permission to locally born people - grant land to the locals and their children....however, this scheme is wrong.

I've been learning Irish for the past 4 years (because I want to) & because its recent education to me, probably have a better command of it than many of the irish guys I work with....

Are you honestly telling me that its a fair way of allocation......its not its racist & unconstitutional

beer enigma

the English have hot-water bottles

David [RLD]...my Irish wife steals my hot water bottle

Lennoxschips

It's precisely this kind of attitude that caused Irish to decline like it did in the 20th century. When will the Gaelige lovers learn that forcing people into learning languages won't work? You have to make it fun and interesting.

Gleanndún

Andip wrote:

For my ten penneth...or should that be cent, I find this scheme to be very wrong..

OK, let me set out my stall, I'm English, I've been here for 10 years & am married to an Irish Woman, have two Irish children and have no intention of leaving. I also have an Irish passport through residency, not marriage (I qualify through both and although thru' marriage is easier, wanted to go the formal route).

I'm very proud that my kids are Irish, want my kids to learn Irish & have seen the decline of languages in England - Cornish etc, let alone UK, Welsh, Scottish. I fully support the programme to restrict planning permission to locally born people - grant land to the locals and their children....however, this scheme is wrong.

I've been learning Irish for the past 4 years (because I want to) & because its recent education to me, probably have a better command of it than many of the irish guys I work with....

Are you honestly telling me that its a fair way of allocation......its not its racist & unconstitutional

...i cant seem to find your argument. what is it you find so terrible? (it seems you're on the opponent side, but i'm not entirely sure of that either )

Lennoxschips

He said it's racist and unconstitutional. Which side of the fence do you think he's on?

If any non-Gaelic speaker gets disadvantaged by this ruling hopefully they'll take it to the courts or the European courts.

dermot_sheehan

It's no big deal, it's probabley unconstitutional as per the Blasket Islands case, and if not it violates the treaty of rome. Anyone who really wants to live their could simply sue the county council, the only losers would be the county council themselves with massive legal bills

Rredwell

Raskolnikov wrote:

Classified as a minority in the country but a majority in the Connemara region.

I don't see why people are getting so upset about this, if you move to the US or Canada they expect a certain degree of fluency in English and French if you move to Quebec before you're even considered. Likewise, if you move to the Gaelteacht then surely it's not not unreasonable to expect you to have some degree of fluency in Irish?

I agree totally. The whole point is that the Irish language's traditional majority in the Gaeltachts is being undermined by trendy Dublin 4 so-and-sos who swan down form Waterloo Road or wherever, and don't make a bit of effort to integrate into the local community.

And for those of you (seamus et al.) who call this measure xenophobic: for right-wing people you're getting very caught up in PC name-calling.

Memnoch

I'm surprised at the number of people who have voted "yes" in this poll, as someone who has immigrated to ireland this strikes a strongly racist tone in my view.

Bonkey - with regards to your point of it being a small area, i believe your OWN arguement with regards to the death penalty applies here. Once you accept something in principle in no matter how small a capacity then the lines become blurry. So ok right now its only in a small appartment complex, but once its considered acceptable to be like this, whats next? A small part of a town? an entire town? an entire county? all of ireland? Where do you draw the line.

And yes as someone who has been living in ireland for the past 8 years, has mostly irish friends, and who considers his belief's to be more in keeping with that of most irish people than my country of native origin, I would say that I would feel extremely discriminated by this kind of law.

I feel that the english language is a different issue. Since english is the commen language a base spoken by pretty much everyone in the country, it makes sense to ask people to learn the language in order to make effective communication possible. But please note, i'm not advocating introducing laws that people be able to speak english before they can be allowed to live here.
But the fact is that people who live in ireland DO pick up English, because its
a practical necessity.
Irish on the other hand IS a minority language, and forcing people to have to learn it is ludicrious, but I suppose not a problem for those who are opposed to a multi-cultural society (racists). As you said in the death penalty thread...
where do you draw the line?
who defines where it is?
and once you accept this attitude, how long before the line becomes fuzzy?

this kind of attitude only promotes racism and division and a xenophobic society.