Ray Burke says "Guilty your Honour"

mike65

This snippet from unison

Former government minister Ray Burke has pleaded guilty to two counts of knowingly furnishing incorrect tax information. Mr Burke, from Griffith Downs in Drumcondra, entered the plea before Dublin Circuit Criminal Court this morning. The charges relate to alleged tax offences involving a total of more than £175,000 in and around December 1993. Mr Burke, a former Justice and Foreign Affairs Minister in Fianna Fail-led administrations, was remanded on continuing bail until December 14th of this year.

There was a third charge which related to not declaring his ill-gotten gains during a tax amnesty but this was struck out.

The sentencing will not take place until December. He could be jailed for up to 5 years and be fined something like 127,000 euro on each charge.

I'm not holding my breath (naturalment) but I really hope he gets a custodial sentence plus maximum fines.

Mike.

De Rebel

Have to say I find it very difficult to contemplate that thieving (he robbed the rest of us by not paying his fair share to the tax man) s***bag (he was minister for justice, ffs) walk (swagger) free having seen the pictures in the press at the weekend of a mother of 5 who was off to the clink for not having a tv licence.

I remember the 80s well, and remember seen many genuine hard working people on meagre wages trying to feed and educate families while paying top rate tax. Scrimping every penny. And all the while this toad was living the highlife and robbing the taxman (i.e. us).

He sold his house some years ago for €3,000,000, yes three million. He has plenty more money left. The dropping of the charge relating to non-declaration when availing of a tax amnesty was a shame, that one carries some particularly nasty penalties. These fines, assuming he is fined to the maximum, even when combined with revenue penalties, are a pittance.

A custodial sentence would indeed be welcome, and richly deserved. It would certainly be a comfort to those who endured real pain and hardship to pay their tax while Burke cheated his way through life. But much much greater retribution should be exacted. This man made a mockery of the nation and of one of the most important offices of state. He inflicted hardship on others for his own personal gain. There is no greater abuse of power and privilege.

I genuinely find it difficult to think of a punishment appropriate to his crimes.

Fianna Fail abu.

Xterminator

It was reported on the news he paid 600,000+ to the cab to settle his tax bil.

He will have to pay any fine on top of that. Added to that it was done in the full glare of the media, ( as it should be!).

I dont think anything will be served by Burke getting a protracted jail sentence. Perhaps a short message' to tax evaders might be benifical, but given the cost to the tax payer, and the fact he's not a danger to society, i think our jail spaces need to be used on those who are a danger to society.

His 'good name' has been taken away, he has had to pay the money back, with interest, so a fine is sufficient.

X

Villain

This man should serve time for his crimes and to think he was Minister for Justice!!

MrPudding

Originally posted by Xterminator


His 'good name' has been taken away, he has had to pay the money back, with interest, so a fine is sufficient.

X

So he robs hundreds of thousands and a fine and the loss if his good name is sufficient, and a mother gets jail for not paying her tv licence which she probably couldn't afford? Yeah, nice. That really won't enforce the view that there are 2 different sets of laws.

He knowingly and repeatedly stole from the taxpayer. Something will be served by putting him in jail, he will get the punishment he deserves and it will send a message to other. The fact that Burke and his ilk are still walking free and still owe money to the state is an offense to PAYE workers and honest people that pay their taxes.

MrP

Xterminator

errmm did either of you read my post?

but given the cost to the tax payer, and the fact he's not a danger to society, i think our jail spaces need to be used on those who are a danger to society.

Thata why i think a jail sentance is probably inappropiate, except perhaps for a week or so, like Liam Lawlor.

Yes he's deceived people and is guilty of brass balled hypocracy, but on the other hand he plead guilty, which saved the state the cost of a trial, and paid his fines.

X

MrPudding

Is he less of a threat to society than a mother of 5 who didn't pay her tv licence?

MrP

Xterminator

The answer is neither.

However sometimes people need to be sent to jail for contempt of court, failure to pay fines etc. This is to uphold order, or those fined would never pay.

I m not aware of the specifics of the case you refer to, and yes it seems extreme to jail someone for debt, unless there were aggravating circumstances like those mentined above.

X

swiss

I dont think anything will be served by Burke getting a protracted jail sentence. Perhaps a short message' to tax evaders might be benifical, but given the cost to the tax payer, and the fact he's not a danger to society, i think our jail spaces need to be used on those who are a danger to society.

In the current justice system, I must concur.

Let me put it this way. It is completely understandable that we want to see this man go to jail for his crimes. He was elected to one of the highest positions of trust in the land, and he repaid that trust with betrayal. When this is compared with a situation in which a woman was jailed for an exceptionally minor offence, we wonder why we should settle for less for Ray Burke.

The answer is this: our current prison system is a disgrace. We don't have enough cells to keep the violent prisoners that our gardaí are actually able to apprehend and our courts are able to convict. Hence we have the oft cited "revolving door" system, which means that these very same dangerous criminals serve pitifully small sentences for their crimes.

When it comes down to it, who would you rather see on the street? A disgraced Mr Burke, or the local violent thug? If you're walking home late in a quiet part of town, no matter what your sense of justice might be, the answer is obvious.

Since it appears all Mr Burke cared about was the money, I am all in favor of using that as a means of punishment. Therefore I hope he is fined to the hilt, that he has to pay his own legal fees, and that the disgrace this episode brings him will color his future business dealings. But leave prison spaces free for the criminals you would not want to meet at night.

I don't know the specifics of the case with the woman, but using the logic above, it also seems equally unwarranted. However, it would be a mistake to try to 'correct' one mistake with another, no matter where your sympathies might lie.

mike65

I want to see him become aquianted with "Bubba"
but it need'nt take long!

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by Xterminator
I dont think anything will be served by Burke getting a protracted jail sentence. Perhaps a short message' to tax evaders might be benifical, but given the cost to the tax payer, and the fact he's not a danger to society, i think our jail spaces need to be used on those who are a danger to society.

Whatever happened to "justice to be done and seen to be done"?

Burkes and Haugheys (and others) tax evasion cost people their lives through funding cuts to the health service. Let them rot.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Xterminator
It was reported on the news he paid 600,000+ to the cab to settle his tax bil.

A small but important point. The money paid to the CAB was not his tax bill. That was the subject of the two charges in court yesterday. The CAB is concerned with assets which derive or are suspected to derive from criminal activity.

In effect, Burke was hit on two fronts.

One, was tax evasion, which is the subject of the two charges in court. The amounts were £151,980 and £24,038. We have no idea at present of the source of these funds, it could have been a legal source, and it could also have been an illegal source. His offence here was not declaring the money for tax purposes. He will be sentence on December 14th, maximum penalties being five years in jail or fine of €127,000 (or both)

Secondly, and totally separately, he has made a €600,000 settlement with the Criminal Assets Bureau which was investigating his finances. The Irish Times expanded on it as follows:

Last November, Mr Burke was served by the Criminal Assets Bureau with a tax demand of over €2 million in respect of income it claims he received but did not declare to the Revenue Commissioners.

CAB has been investigating the former minister since September 2002, shortly after the interim report of the Flood tribunal found he received total corrupt payments of almost €250,000.

The acquisition of his former home in Swords was also found to be corrupt.

The year-long investigation by the bureau identified between €300,000 and €400,000 in income from 1973 to the early 1990s on which it believes Mr Burke did not pay income tax.

The rest of the €2 million-plus sum which was being demanded from him is made up of penalties and interest in respect of the core amount.

Mr Burke is one of a number of figures who has featured in the planning and payments to politicians tribunals to be pursued by CAB on criminal matters through the courts.

In summary, he appears to be guilty of (1) getting money from criminal activity (corrupt activity in the words of the tribunal) (2) tax evasion

De Rebel

Also from the Irish Times, 13th July 2004

At different times in his political career, Mr Burke held a number of senior ministerial portfolios, including environment, energy, communications, commerce and industry, justice, and foreign affairs. His last Cabinet position was in foreign affairs, to which he was appointed in 1997 by the Taoiseach, Mr Ahern.

I really wonder about the comments above about this guy not being a threat to society etc. He is a menace to society. I watched my parents and many others scrimp and save and deny them selves the smallest luxuries to pay their bills, pay their taxes and feed and educate their families. And all the time this creep and his like were lording over us like majesty of old and thieving from us at the same time.

The debate on whether custodial or non custodial sentences are more effective is a complex one. It is difficult to argue with Swiss’s generalisations regarding the state of prison system. However it is a fact that our judicial system doles out custodial sentences in large number, sometimes for relatively minor offences. And I can see no reason whatsoever that it shouldn’t do so in this case.

The argument whether it is best to see Burke or a violent thug on the street is nebulous; it appears as little more than a continuation of the traditional view that white collar crime doesn’t really hurt anybody. It does. And it needs to be punished. This guy undermined confidence in one of the most important institutions of state (the government), contributed to the general feeling of malaise towards politicians, and did irreparable damage to the common man’s view of the body politic. And all that in addition to being guilty of receiving corrupt payments and evading tax.

His crimes were serious, especially in the context of his chosen role in society. The punishment doled out to him should be gauged accordingly. A fine of €127,000 will hurt him not one jot. 5 years in the choky will at long last put down a marker that this society is prepared to treat white collar crime and high level corruption with the contempt they deserve.