Norn Ire - Why Not Let 'em At Each Other?

pdh

All the republicans / provisionals or whatever they call themselves posting here need to take a reality check and get with the program.
When Gerry, Martin and the rest of the lads signed up for the GFA, they accepted the status of Ulster as the sovereign territory of the United Kingdom. The support for the amendments to Art 2 & 3 also accepted the fact that Ireland officially comes to an end at the internationally recognized border.

So please give up that pipe dream and just recognize the fact that Ireland consists of 26 counties ONLY, the other 6 are British.

Even the SF members in Belfast accepted this when they agreed to accept positions as Ministers of the Crown in the NI devolved government.

ionapaul

David-[RLD]- wrote:

Maybe because:

1) The north is part of Ireland. We are Irish, are we not?
2) The north is home to a large portion of the people of Ireland.
3) Many people in the south have friends and relatives in the north and vice-versa.

1) The 6 counties are also part of Britain.
2) The 6 counties are home to a majority of people who see themselves are British
3) Many strong links between the island of Great Britain and the people of the 6 counties

I know you were not refuting any of the above statements but I just wanted to point out that there is a flip side to the NI situation, which needs to be fully accepted by all these two islands. As long as the majority of those in the 6 counties see themselves are British/prefer to remain part of Britain that is how it should stay.

NinjaBart

Sand wrote:

This is also for Angel and the feigned innocence of Mouse and Irish 1 along with NinjaBart.

what innocence am i feigning? you appeared to be claiming something and i asked for a reference. if you are saying that the ira are trafficing drugs, then i would like to see a concrete reference for it because ive never seen one.

Villain

The Island of Ireland was divided by the invasion of Britain, Northern Ireland is just that Northern Ireland i.e not Northern England or Britain. I understand that there is a large number of people living in the North that consider themselves British but I would hope that within the next 15 years agreement could be reached to have Ireland RE-UNITED.

Villain

NinjaBart wrote:

what innocence am i feigning? you appeared to be claiming something and i asked for a reference. if you are saying that the ira are trafficing drugs, then i would like to see a concrete reference for it because ive never seen one.

Ah come on you expect him to prove something like that? lol

He knows it not true but instead of admitting it he just go's on a rant, anyone that knows anything about the IRA knows they do not deal in Drugs and people who have been found to have broken this rule have been punished badly in the past.

sceptre

irish1 wrote:

The Island of Ireland was divided by the invasion of Britain

Because it was united before that? Did I imagine the argument between Rory O'Connor and Diarmuid McMurrough that led to the latter going cap in hand to Richard de Clare followed by Henry II sending troops?

Here's a 1014 map. Look at all the different colours.

Villain

What about before that?

dubhthach

pdh wrote:

they accepted the status of Ulster as the sovereign territory of the United Kingdom.

The united kingdom consisits of Great Britian and Northern Ireland i don't see Ulster mention anywhere, it's not on the Union Jack (the so call Cross of St. Patrick is) nor do we see the red hand on the British Royal coat of arms instead we see the Irish coat of arms (blue field with a harp)

Calling Northern Ireland Ulster is a mistake after all part of Ulster is in the Republic.

dubhthach

sceptre wrote:

Because it was united before that? Did I imagine the argument between Rory O'Connor and Diarmuid McMurrough that led to the latter going cap in hand to Richard de Clare followed by Henry II sending troops?

Here's a 1014 map. Look at all the different colours.

Well technically it was between Ó Ruairc of Breifne and MacMurrough and was to due to Diarmuid running off with Ó Ruairc's wife. Ruari allowed Ó Ruairc to have his revenge after all not only were they allies but techincally both were related by tribal connection. The O'Connors been the head family of the Úi Bruin Ai and Ó Ruairc been head of the Úi Bruin Breifne.

As regards the north i couldn't care less tbh, but people going on about british oppression etc. are been abit simplistic, after all when the british army was sent in late 69/70 they were greeted by nationlists as if they were liberators from the B-Specials.

sceptre

irish1 wrote:

What about before that?

Relatively speaking, Ireland was far more united by 1014 than it had been before (and you can see from the map above how united the country was). In other words the answer to your question (it is a question isn't it?) is "even more divided". To find a "united Ireland" you'll have to go all the way back to the very first settlers and hope Fred and Barney weren't having an argument about who got to drag the woman by the hair on the walk over. Even the Vikings didn't manage to subdue any more than the cities we're all aware of. It wasn't significantly more united by 1169.

(thanks for the correction dubhthach. I can remember the general inter-tribal aggro but I wouldn't know enough to know who was carrying on with whose chick)

pdh

dubhthach wrote:

The united kingdom consisits of Great Britian and Northern Ireland i don't see Ulster mention anywhere, it's not on the Union Jack (the so call Cross of St. Patrick is) nor do we see the red hand on the British Royal coat of arms instead we see the Irish coat of arms (blue field with a harp)

Calling Northern Ireland Ulster is a mistake after all part of Ulster is in the Republic.

So maybe you agree with me that Ireland (26 counties) should apply for readmission to the United Kingdom ?

ionapaul

The island of Ireland was fairly united and politically quiet in the last few decades of the 19th century. There were certainly large numbers in what is now the Republic of Ireland who were Gaelic by heritage but relatively content living in the British Empire. No doubt if offered a politically independant Ireland or some form of home rule under the Queen without the possibility of bloodshed, many would have jumped at the chance. But during that time the Irish appetite for armed rebellion had almost disappeared - tiny fractions of a percentage of the population in secret societies withstanding!
A good reason why Ireland was relatively content and quiet at this time was the rise of the big farmer class in the aftermath of the land wars and the emigration/death/decline of the landless peasants since the famine.

arcadegame2004

So maybe you agree with me that Ireland (26 counties) should apply for readmission to the United Kingdom ?

Why? Do you seriously believe they would have let us introduce a 12% Corporation-tax rate, which is one of the reasons for the Irish economic boom? If you are a Southerner then I consider you to be deeply unpatriotic. But if you are a Northern Unionist then I consider you as being true to form. especially with your reference to NI as "Ulster", which is a way of denying that it has a significant body of people in it that regard themselves as Irish.

The historical fact of collusion between the British armed-forced and Loyalist violence to kill Catholic lawyers and others would become 32 county-wide if the South rejoined the United Kingdom.

We didn't even join the UK willingly. The Dublin Parliament of 1690-1800 was closed to Catholics. Only Protestants were allowed to be members, and those opposed to the Union were bribed.

The British caused the famine by:

A: The Corn Laws which imposed stuff tariffs on agricultural-imports, making them too expensive for the Irish to buy.

B:The damage caused by the forced subdivision of land under the Penal Laws which didn't end until 1829, though it had laid the roots for ever smaller landholdings by Irish peasants.

C:The Royal Navy actively blocked aid ships from America from landing.

D:This reduced the Irish population from 9.1 million in 1845 to 5 million.

You can forget it!

dubhthach

pdh wrote:

So maybe you agree with me that Ireland (26 counties) should apply for readmission to the United Kingdom ?

Nawh not really, after all we are equal partners in the European Union why should we give that up, i don't see any advantages from rejoining the UK no doubt you could argue that there would be a state suppliment from Westminister such as in the North, but i don't think your average english/scot/welsh person would wish to pay more in the way of taxes.

One thing i always find funny about the branding around of "Ulster" as a term to describe the north is that at Partition Catholics made up about 50-51% population of the province, they were the biggest single religion, it's for this reason as to why the north ended up as 6counties as oppose to 9. That and as the map that sceptre posted you will note that Ulster for a long time had been relegated to just the modern counties of Antrim and Down, this was the same in the Norman era where the lordship of Ulster was of these two counties and was based out of Carrickfergus (if my memory serves me correct) Ulster by the way is a combination of two irish words Ulaid and tír so it means land (country) of the Ulaid , it's actually a term that came into english via the vikings same applies to leinster and munster.

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by DubhtachOne thing i always find funny about the branding around of "Ulster" as a term to describe the north is that at Partition Catholics made up about 50-51% population of the province, they were the biggest single religion, it's for this reason as to why the north ended up as 6counties as oppose to 9.

Actually the Protestants had a roughly 53-47 majority in pre-partition Ulster starting in 1861, according to then Census.

Also, only 4 of the Six Counties had Protestant majorities in 1920 (according to the 1918 Census), those being Antrim, Armagh, Down and Derry. But the Unionists refused a 4 county NI and insisted on grabbing Fermanagh (then 53% Catholic) and Tyrone (then 57% Catholic).

dubhthach

Awh well i was basing my figure on the 1910 census which i recall reading in "Ireland 1912 1985: Politics and Society" by Joseph J Lee of UCC however it has been a couple of years since i've read it

AngelofFire

sceptre wrote:

Relatively speaking, Ireland was far more united by 1014 than it had been before (and you can see from the map above how united the country was).

That is true.Brian Boru was credited for being the first king of the whole Ireland.However it wasn`t until the 18th century that Jonathan Swift called upon irish people to burn everything British but her coal.There was no national conscience before then.people on this island were far too tribal, instead of saying "we are irish" they prefered to say "we are McCarthy" or "we are O`Donoghue" etc.

David-[RLD]-

irish1 wrote:

The Island of Ireland was divided by the invasion of Britain, Northern Ireland is just that Northern Ireland i.e not Northern England or Britain. I understand that there is a large number of people living in the North that consider themselves British but I would hope that within the next 15 years agreement could be reached to have Ireland RE-UNITED.

Exactly. I don't want to have a united Ireland where Catholics dominate Protestants or anything like that. I just want a United Ireland of equality. I hate sectarianism; it's pointless and stupid. Little do unionists realise that a United Ireland wouldn't affect them at all, except that the IRA(s) would be completely gone, their goal accomplished. I don't believe Republican paramilitaries will disappear until Ireland is united. It's only a matter of time now.

ionapaul

AngelofFire wrote:

That is true.Brian Boru was credited for being the first king of the whole Ireland.However it wasn`t until the 18th century that Jonathan Swift called upon irish people to burn everything British but her coal.There was no national conscience before then.people on this island were far too tribal, instead of saying "we are irish" they prefered to say "we are McCarthy" or "we are O`Donoghue" etc.

Even then there wasn't much of a national conscience - Swift wrote for the tiny, tiny minority of literate and English-speaking Irishmen. Certain parts of the country have never cared much for the rest - the area that immediately springs to mind is Connemara (maybe the most Gaelic part of Ireland). No matter Pearse and other famous Irish patriots spending time there, Connemara never had much time for the rest of the island or cared much about any struggle with England. What was the difference between being ruled by Dublin or London for them?
Tribal and religious bonds have always been much more important in Ireland than any nationalistic feelings, barring certain periods.

Johnny 5

The ignorance of some users on this thread is beyond belief. You understand nothing of the facts yet still feel able to pass judgement on those involved. As expected the right wingers have managed to convert this thread into a denouncment of violence to a campaign for Ireland to enter the union again.

First of all, Belfast, July 12. Seems some of you only see what you want to see.

- No one mentioned the UDA/UVF "brigadiers" amongst the crowd that were forced through by the RUC. Press photographs the next morning clearly showed these men walkling with the Bretheren with their UDA flags waving high. For the Ardoyne residents, to see men who have killed members of their community/family walk through waving their terrorist flags in their faces, spitting on the ground and hurling sectarian insults must have been a pain indeed.

- No one mentioned the Orange Order members who were seen telling the Unionist crowd that had gathered, to step up their cheering. Again this was seen on the news the following day.

- No one mentioned the deal the RUC had made with the loyalists beforehand in direct contradiction to the Parades Commission ruling. Indeed a top loyalist was quoted in a newspaper saying a deal had been made between marchers and the RUC an hour before.

Fact is, when the Parades Commission made their ruling, it was taken for granted that loyalist supporters would not be forced through Ardoyne. There is even footage showing SF members believing that to be the case and no one challenging them. When the Parades Commissions ruling said only bandsmen would be allowed through, this would generally be taken as the truth, but alas the RUC had a different view.

The anger of the Ardoyne residents was clear to see, they had been hemmed in for 4 hours beforehand, totally imprisoned in their homes. They had been resigned to a peaceful protest, but to see the RUC deliberately flout a PC ruling and force the people who have murdered their family and friends through their area, brought them to the boil.

Then in Lurgan the next day, a known loyalist deliberately parked his car at the side of the road, then walked back into the crowd. The car was put there, so the Orangemen wouldn't be able to turn around. Well, this was good enough for the RUC to again flout the PC ruling and force the march through a Catholic area, totally away from the original route. That man was never arrested, and no charges brought against him.

The pattern of RUC abuses over the 12th of July period are numerous, and are not isolated to the two incidents I mentioned here.

Anyway, I'll let you all try and pick away at what I've written and find that the IRA broke their ceasefire, like they do with every incident that occurs in the North and that they were responsible for all this trouble.

Cork

David-[RLD]- wrote:

I don't believe Republican paramilitaries will disappear until Ireland is united. It's only a matter of time now.

I think that all paramilitarism will have to cease. But there is no gaurentee that these people won't will continue with their rackereering.

There won't be a United Ireland for many many years - thanks to the tribal carnage caused by tit for tat paramilitarism.

This has only helped deepened devision and it only made a situation of the seeking of the legitimate civil rights transend into needless carnage.

The policy of the armalite & ballot box was a flop and it was always obvious that this would be the case.

So much SDLP party policy got into the GFA and it is a testement to the vision of Johbn Hume.

David-[RLD]-

You THINK all paramilitarism will have to cease, but what you believe does not necessarily make it so.

"Here, lads, this war against the Brits has gone long enough. Time to disband."
"..f**k off."

See? You can't just tell a group of paramilitaries to "stop their endless campaign of violence".

Were we talking about the policy of armalite and ballot box? I don't believe we were. Instead of nitpicking at individual policies why not view the situation from a distance? There won't be a United Ireland for many years, not only because of paramilitarism on the Republican side, but because of the Loyalists as well, who are so obsessed with putting an end to Republicanism and hiding their bigotry (I'm not saying that some Republicans aren't bigots) that I think they have also lost all meaning of this war.

Quote from scottishloyalists.com:

"It is not the aim or intention of Scottish Loyalists to incite hatred of Roman Catholics but rather, by use of facts and Biblical truth to highlight the errors of the Roman Church, but it is our intention to promote the Protestant cause and Loyalist traditions. It is the intolerance of others who oppose our right to celebrate our culture who are the true bigots."

They're not on the offense anymore, but the defense. The last sentence is not exactly true...