What IS the cost of designing a (DW4+) site?

clearz

cleareyed, how if I were to tell you that your comments seem as amature as the sites listed in this thread. Yes I am an amature (done 4 sites) but I have learned alot about dealing with people when it comes to computers. About 90% of small business owners bearly know how to switch on a computer let alone spend a couple of hours on google learning HTML javascript ect.

As for your comment on doing it on a Sunday afternoon. Yea if you had all the photos and info on hand. That doesn't happen by magic. You have to talk with the persons involved. Discuss what direction they want the site to go and take the photos. This all takes time.

I charged 500 + hosting fees for glendown and believe I earned every penny of it and if you have a problem with that BITE ME.:p

jank

Seems to me that there is a lot of begrudery out there when ot come to costs of doing a website, especially from fellow web desingers.

Its one thing being critical but another to be just a pain in the ass cause "I can do better for cheaper":rolleyes:

There are still a lot of computer illiterate people out there and to them making even a basic website seems like rocket science!

However we have to take everyting into context ie how much do plumbers, carpenters, mechanics for foxers that seem simple to them but complicated for us.......!?

I find it amazing that we keep selling ourselevs short when it comes to doing jobs like this. If you charge too much and do a crap job then thats your problem not mine and I have no intention of of begrudeing anybody $$$$$$ because of that, the lack of quality may bite you back in time but as I said thats your busines

PS not directed at anybody on this thread, just a general observation

RicardoSmith

Thats a good point.

I think the problem is that most people think doing it cheaper is better, and will give them a sales advantage which in return will lead to more sales, which then allow them to charge more. So some people do it as a loss leader.

Whereas in fact doing it cheaper mean that the clients will expect it done that cheap all the time. As theres always a lots of people who will undercut you or do it for free, and everyone always knows someone, a relative or a friend who can do throw a few pages together.

Whereas doing it as a business you have to charge more but then you have to provide a professional service. Some clients prefer to pay more, and ensure they get a professional service. Some will pay more because they like dealing with you and they like your designs and how you manage the project.

Horses for courses I guess.

p

Originally posted by jank
Seems to me that there is a lot of begrudery out there when ot come to costs of doing a website, especially from fellow web desingers.

I think if there's any begrudgery it's because there's far too many cowboys out there selling web design services and just plain ripping off their clients.

Too many people learn a bit of HTML & dreamweaver and thinks that makes them web designers.

It's like thinking if youknow how to use a paintbrush you're an artist. Knowing tools does not make you a good craftsmen.

Webmonkey

I agree

jank

It's like thinking if youknow how to use a paintbrush you're an artist. Knowing tools does not make you a good craftsmen

That can be said about EVERY profession

How many cowboy builders are out there and to be honest if somebody picks one of these cowboys then its their own fault to be honest

p

Originally posted by jank
That can be said about EVERY profession

Some yes, others no.

Many professions require qualifications, and a large investment.

The problem exists because there's such a low barrier to entry for webwork, and because of the general lack of awareness of good design.

I agree that at the end of the day it's the clients responsibility, but that doesn't solve the problem.

I guess I'm just shocked there's so many con artists out there.

RicardoSmith

Its a problem with all graphic disciplines if you ask me.

Capt'n Midnight

"there's always room at the top"
If you are very good or working for a reputable company you can charge the higher rates. As an independent all you customers have to go on is your previous work.
As you gain experiance you can produce better work faster. If you are only learning it will take a lot longer to produce the same quantity of work and you might not even get to the same level.

One option would be to charge a volume based price - ie. say x amount per page on the basis that the customer is not being charged for the time it takes for you to learn. Also you can tell the customer that if it takes longer the you take the hit but if it takes less time then they get their site developed sooner.

hostyle

Originally posted by JustHalf
I see a lot of people mention 500 euro a day. If anyone can get me work at anything from 250 a day upwards, I'll gladly give them a 20% cut.

I've done a few websites recently for < €200 a day. They did usually take me a less than a day each. Every thread I see here about "what I should charge" lead to rip-off prices being touted. What is your time worth? What do you need to pay your bills? If you're employed by a company you have much higher overhead; if you're a freelancer, keep the price low and you'll have much more customer referrals.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by hostyle
I've done a few websites recently for < €200 a day. They did usually take me a less than a day each. Every thread I see here about "what I should charge" lead to rip-off prices being touted. What is your time worth? What do you need to pay your bills? If you're employed by a company you have much higher overhead; if you're a freelancer, keep the price low and you'll have much more customer referrals.

Why worry about another companies expenses? What you're doing is keeping your income low. You charge what the market will stand. The bigger the profit the better. I mean you are doing it to make a profit yeah? Not just to cover any costs. Only contractors charge by the day. A freelancer or even a company would charge for completion of the project, or on bigger projects, completion of project milestones.

hostyle

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Why worry about another companies expenses? What you're doing is keeping your income low. You charge what the market will stand. The bigger the profit the better. I mean you are doing it to make a profit yeah? Not just to cover any costs. Only contractors charge by the day. A freelancer or even a company would charge for completion of the project, or on bigger projects, completion of project milestones.

Ehm, its been a few years since I worked for a web-design company per-se (been in web application development for a time), but the main one I worked for went out of business for the simple reason they charged what they thought they could get away with rather than what the project should realistically cost (plus profit margin). They ripped people off left, right and centre - so while the clients had a nicely designed, well programmed, functional websites: they weren't too happy in the end with the price they paid. We got no new work via referrals from anyone. In retropect, I know for a fact that teh company went down the drain because of this. Fleecing your clients is not a good way to do business. Therefore I always decide how much time a project will take and charge accordingly, but I charge per day because most jobs only take a day or two, and some only take hours. They're small enough jobs yes, but some were as big as smaller projects at the company I mention above who would charge 2 - 3 grand for a two day job (the client wouldn't know it was done this quickly and wouldn;t be told either), whereas I charge 2 - 4 hundred for the same. I;m happy, the client is happy and I'm not broke.

Having said all that I'm only doing these small jobs while I'm seeking employment. I suck at marketting, but do get referrals from happy clients.

RicardoSmith

Fleeching and ripping off your clients is not charging what the market will stand is it.

Seanie M

So, there is still division among the masses as to what to charge. Although some people have strayed to what I hoped was an open and close string, I have seen some insight into my small plight.

For those of you geniuses out there who say you can do a site like some of those mentioned in this string in a small amount of time, good for you. You're a big shot, full of hot air, and not making any money out of it. Kudos.

Then, some of us are trying, like me, and wanted to get feedback on them.

Dun, the Glendown House sight is pretty good. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. Some of those schmucks criticising your work while not having anything of theirs published, either don't have a clue, are jealous, or are very hypocritical. Keep up the good work.

As for the criticsm on my 2 posted sites. Thanks for the feedback. Though I don't see how it was constructive per say, only that font is not great or that background sound screams amateurish. I did say that they were for fun, and in no way reflect the content that was going into the 2 potential customer sites I am working on. So, in a way, some of the feedback was useless. But noted none-the-less.

I have worked out myself what to quote the customers in question. They are pleased with the numbers, and the work that I have put in. And, I will soon have a fat wad of notes in my backpocket.

Needless to say, I think Dreamweaver (in its latest form) does work very well, if you can get to know and use most of the functions it has to offer. Use the Tutorial and Index to help you along the way - you don't need to spend a couple hundred on a course etc.

Thats my feedback!

Thanks,

Seanie.

RicardoSmith

I've spent the morning trying to make edits to a dreamweaver (dunno the version) site and I have to say it produces the most dire HTML you can imagine. On a page that require no more than about 5 tables (not that you should be using tables) it has created about 25 and there are spacers and empty cells and blank gifs all over the place. Half of the HTML tags, aren't closed and theres no way from looking at the code where anything is. The designer has used the same page as a template so the came carp is on every page. Its horrendous stuff.

Seanie M - whats the point in asking for people opinion then being critical of the critisim that you asked for! Theres no point going on about sites that you haven't linked to. Its like the emperors new clothes. Theres a world of a difference between the http://www.glendownhouse.com site and the ones you posted. End of story. As for pricing theres a big difference in what an amateur, freelancer, or a web designer company should charge for their work. Even if amny clients can't appreciate the difference. Thats their loss.

But if you happy going what you are doing and can make some money, even a living from it. Then thats great. I hope that you continue to work on your skillset and learn to accept all forms of critisim as good experience.

hostyle

Originally posted by Seanie M
For those of you geniuses out there who say you can do a site like some of those mentioned in this string in a small amount of time, good for you. You're a big shot, full of hot air, and not making any money out of it. Kudos.

I like that. Flame the professionals - maybe they'll go away. In the end this is all just differences of opinion from people who are involved in the industry. As long as both you and your customers are happy, so am I.

Batbat

yuck, well i supose could be worse via frontpage or something, but im not a big fan of dreamweaver either, I would not pay those rates for that site, does everything have to be justified left or right?

maxheadroom

The new version of Dreamweaver can be very handy if you already know how to code a page well by hand. In that situation it helps you cut down your development time, allows you to use features like nested templates and template properties, has nice syntax highlighting in source view, etc.

If you just use the wysiwyg part, you'll end up with tag soup.