Govt wants Irish declared EU language

ishmael whale

Feck Irish language tests for flats in Spiddal – what’s this all about?
I had the worry when the Government parties got wiped in the elections for dumb ideas like decentralisation, Official Language Act, E voting and so on, they’d wrongly conclude that it was because they hadn’t foisted enough dumb ideas on us.

WTF is this? I mean WTFingF?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0714/irish
Govt wants Irish declared EU language
July 14, 2004 16:28
The Government is to apply to have Irish declared as an official language of the EU.
A decision was taken at today's cabinet meeting.
Discussions will begin with other EU member states and with the European Commission with a view to seeking official and working language status for the Irish language in the EU under the EEC Regulation 1/1958.
The Regulation is the legal instrument that governs the EU Institutions official and working language regime.
Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Eamon Ó Cuív, announced the application.
He said: 'The focus in the discussions will be on securing agreement on the practical modalities in relation to this objective.'

Batbat

another stupid idea, time for FF to go, thay have gone mad with power, oh no wait that would leave FG ah crap

aidan_walsh

I'm sorry, is there really somethign wrong with the government wanting to help keep our culture alive in the midst of the growing European federalisation?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the EU, but at the same time we have to be able to maintain our own identity, and having Irish offically recognised will help that.

Batbat

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the EU, but at the same time we have to be able to maintain our own identity, and having Irish offically recognised will help that.

How does speaking irish maintain our irish identity, ive never spoken it (except at school) and Im irish, am I less irish for not caring about a dead language?

De Rebel

Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Eamon Ó Cuív said
'The focus in the discussions will be on securing agreement on the practical modalities in relation to this objective'

Ahem could we have that in Irish please?

Champ

having Irish offically recognised will help that

I agree ideally speaking; though practically it's rather ambitous given only a small percentage of the population can speak it reasonably well.

dictatorcat

Financially it's a bad idea, all EU documents will have to be translated into Irish which would be a waste of time and money considering the maximum of 5 people who would be interested in reading said documents in Irish. It's just silly, by the same logic every EU document would have to be translated into the following :Abaza, Abkhaz, Achterhoeks, Adyghe, Alemannisch, Aragonés, Arbëreshë, Armâneashti, Arvanitika, Asturianu, Bairisch, Balgarski, Bokmål, Bosanski, Brezhoneg, Calabrese, Campidanese, Castellano, Català, Čeština, Corsu, Cymraeg, Dansk, Dolnoserbski, Deutsch, Drents etc. etc.

It's time we got over our own selfimportance and realised that Irish is not the only minority language in Europe.

sceptre

I'm not against this per se but assuming he's doing this in part to help the Irish language (and knock in about 200 (at a guess) jobs), I'd rather he did something useful instead/as well. Preferably instead to be honest but my vague ideas on keeping the blips of the Irish language life monitoring and preservation machine going are slightly outside the thread as it currently stands.

As I said before, I do think this is a mistake in that Irish will presumably have to be removed from the minority language category, which currently gives it EU funding for preservation measures. Apart from the pittance of extra jobs and the people being happy at being able to get translation work with two official EU languages (er, Irish and English), it's substantially on its own now. OK, I think it's a big mistake from the point of view of preservation. Just my opinion though. I don't even have to run with the "think of all the money this will cost for so little a return" line.

flogen

There are many things the government could do to encourage Irish, this is not one of them. This is just lip service to anyone who got their backs up when we all realised it wasnt an official language, it wont make the future of Irish any more safe.

Saying that, its not a terrible thing, once people realise there is so much more to do if you want to see Irish actually survive and be a part of the country.

flogen

thejollyrodger

Its BRILLIANT NEWS !!!:D

never mind all these Nay -Sayers :mad:

Yoda

From eubusiness.com

The Irish government said on Wednesday it would seek recognition of Gaelic as an official working language of the European Union.

The minister for Gaeltacht (Irish) affairs, Eamon O Cuiv, said in a statement the government would "initiate a process of discussions with the other EU member states and the EU commission with a view to seeking official and working language status for the Irish language in the EU under EEC Regulation 1/1958".

The regulation is the legal instrument that governs the EU institutions' official and working language regime.

Pressure to gain recognition for Gaelic mounted earlier this year when Ireland held the EU's rotating six-monthly presidency, during which time 10 mainly east European countries joined the bloc.

One of the main Gaelic language lobby groups, Stadas (Status), argued that it was an anomaly to have the languages of entrant countries such as Malta and Latvia recognised while Irish, the tongue of a long-standing EU member, had still to get official status.

Irish language enthusiasts picketed EU meetings in Dublin, marched on parliament and circulated a petition.

Enda Kenny, leader of the main opposition Fine Gael party, said that since the EU's historic May 1 enlargement to 25 nations, 20 languages were now recognised as official EU languages .

Gaelic was Ireland's predominant language up until the middle of the 1800s, when it was supplanted by English.

Irish spoken today dates back to at least the ninth century and has survived despite attempts during British colonisation to completely anglicise the country.

Various efforts have been made to revive Gaelic but the number of speakers continues to decline.

A 2002 census showed about 1.4 million of Ireland's four million people had "an ability" to speak Irish and over a quarter of those were reported as speaking it on a daily basis.

sceptre

A 2002 census showed about 1.4 million of Ireland's four million people had "an ability" to speak Irish and over a quarter of those were reported as speaking it on a daily basis.

..which again skews the percentage by including those of school-going age who obviously speak it on a daily basis (and at that for about 50% of the year when you take out holidays and weekends). Same view is reflected here for what it's worth (down near the end but the article's worth a scan). The figures they refer to are the 2002 ones so eagle-eyed elephants who read my post in the Irish houses for Irish speakers in Spiddal thread will note that Ballyvourney and Ballingeary (both in Co Cork) appear to have overtaken Ring in Waterford since 1996 for the highest proportion of daily Irish speakers in the designated Gaeltacht area. I'd look up the census figures and do a quick comparison/analysis but I'm too lazy at the moment.

Capt'n Midnight

Best thing the Gov't could do for the Irish language is to ban it.

People would start speaking as gailge out of spite.

Yoda

Had the first Dáil government made Irish the language of the Dáil, it might have had the effect of inspiring people to do a better job at the Athbheochan (Revival). That would be a question of status. As it happens, that didn't happen, and the schools were left with the responsibility for the language – and they didn't do such a great job with it.

Still, the Revival continues, and use of the language is increasing all the time. I may be cynical about our rather disgraceful FF/PD government, but if for whatever reason (shame, likely enough) they do anything to increase the status and visibility of the Irish language, so much the better.

thejollyrodger

FFS its like posting on a English Board with all these anti Irish posts:mad: :mad:

Whats your problem? If you dont want to speak your own language, then fine, but dont try and stop everyone else.

Even Malta has Maltese, FFS ... WAFJ

oscarBravo

Originally posted by De Rebel
Ahem could we have that in Irish please?

To be fair: of all FF ministers, Ó Cuív is one of the most likely to be able to do so effortlessly.

spongebob

Originally posted by dictatorcat
:Abaza, Abkhaz, Achterhoeks, Adyghe, Alemannisch, Aragonés, Arbëreshë, Armâneashti, Arvanitika, Asturianu, Bairisch, Balgarski, Bokmål, Bosanski, Brezhoneg, Calabrese, Campidanese, Castellano, Català, Čeština, Corsu, Cymraeg, Dansk, Dolnoserbski, Deutsch, Drents etc. etc.

A disingenous list if ever I saw one .

None of those are government languages in their own countries save Catalan in Catalunya and Cymraegin Wales. .

Many are not in the EU at all such as Abkhaz ... in Georgia.

Catalan Basque (Euskadi) and Welsh should have the same status as Irish .

M

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
Even Malta has Maltese, FFS ... WAFJ

One of many Italian dialects, certainly closer to Tuscan than many Sardinian dialects. Tuscan ie. standard Italian was only spoken by about 2% of the population when Italy was re-united.

BTW: I've said it before, more people in the EU speak Catalan than Danish. So until Catalan is made an official language... and any argument about them speaking Castillian ... apart from that lad Yong Ming what Irish speaker can't understand enough english to get by.

If they worked out what it would cost and support TV3 by the same amount - more Weather Girls & continuity announcers

sceptre

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
FFS its like posting on a English Board with all these anti Irish posts:mad: :mad:

Hmmm, apart from a few at the start of the thread I can't see all that many anti-Irish language posts. Unless you're including the few people who are criticising successive governments for making a flamingo-up of the Irish revival effort. These would be the people who have brought more to the discussion table than a whinge or a delightful bouncing Tigger.

zt

The expense of this exercise would be considerable. If it was truely useful then I would support it 100%.

However, how many users of EU documents would receive the Irish version and request an English translation...

Also because of legal issues related to 'source documents', it maybe necessary to translate the Irish versions into English for legal review.

This is a complete waste of money.

chewy

big up the catalans and basque and welsh

thats an interesting point your made about keeping it as an minority langauge for funding, what have any of the gaelgoars said about that...

with all this caint of gaelige , has there been a recent full onreview of how irish is thought in schools ?

(i'd be in favour of removing it from being compulsory, it was the bane of my schooling life failing all the way..)

had a discussion there recently about how the revival of the langauge was partially being held (turnign people off) back because of the political colour and associations of the most vocal proponents

Yoda

If Irish was the bane of your schooling, it was because of how it was taught, not because there's anything wrong with Irish. There's no reason for it not to be compulsory in Ireland; it just needs to be taught sensibly (with regard to what's expected on the exams too).

I understand that it is being taught better in many places.

sceptre

As I understand it, it isn't really compulsory in secondary school in any case. The requirement to have a pass in Leaving Cert Irish to get an official pass in the Leaving Cert has gone. It remains effectively compulsory for two reasons: the NUI colleges (and Trinity AFAIK) require it for entry if you lived in the country before the age of 12 and the Department of Education won't pay the capitation grant to the school for any pupils who were resident in Ireland before the age of 12 if they aren't learning Irish. Any given school may itself have a policy but a lot of this will be tied in with the ching ching of government money. It still makes it effectively compulsory for most but then I'm not a fan of the NUI requirement as I rather like the UL/DCU approach of requiring either Irish or English from the Leaving Cert.

As Yoda said, if it was the bane of anyone's schooling (and it wasn't (except for the nod to etymology) a favourite of mine), it's a teaching problem and some schools have a better approach compared with others. The last review of the LC Irish course facilitated a far better approach to teaching than was previously there (and thankfully made it more possible for that awful book most of you learned to hate (if you're about 30 or older) to be thrown out).

ishmael whale

Let me freely admit that anytime I see reference to the Irish language memories of Peig Sayers cheery autobiography come flooding back. I still don’t know if she was boasting when she described her father as a man with the grass of two cows (‘People with one cow are next door to knackers’) or whinging (‘three cows, there’s posh’). Books can change history and that slim volume gave many thousands the lasting impression that there was more to be gained in life from learning to play the oboe than from reviving Irish.

There seems to have always been an amount of self delusion about the Irish language, like the pretence that Peig embodied some great cultural message. It seems like the official response is the more awful the reality becomes, the greater the necessity for illusion. I really can’t see how this fits in to any responsible approach to Europe, and I don’t see how it helps either the language or the EU to have official translations of EU documents into Irish when our representatives and officials will, necessarily, continue to use English.

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/040610024940.b26rtac5

EU enlargement creates translation nightmare

10 June 2004
Wanted: Maltese speaker capable of translating thousands of pages of legal documents from Hungarian in four days. Salary negotiable, but must be willing to share office with German go-between interpreting from Estonian into Greek.
Such is the linguistic nightmare created by the enlargement of the European Union from 15 member states to 25 countries whose citizens elect a new EU parliament this week.
Even the United Nations uses only six languages for official translations of its resolutions and for most meetings its diplomats rely on just two: English and French.
But the EU parliament insists on spoken and written versions of its proceedings in the official languages of all its members. Since the May 1 enlargement, that means 20 languages, with a total of 380 permutations when each is translated into all of the others.
To make matters worse, some new members have such small populations -- there are 1.4 million speakers of Estonian and only 400,000 Maltese -- that there are not enough qualified translators and interpreters to meet the EU's needs.
Gerard Bokanowski, head of the parliament's translation service, said only two Maltese speakers had applied for jobs. ……………….

cujimmy

What a waste of time and effort. I would like to quote the Commissioner responsible for education and culture, Luxembourg's Viviane Reding, who said giving the Irish language official status in the EU would do nothing to help it. "You know what you should do in Ireland? Speak Irish, write Irish, be proud of Irish, use Irish in everyday language and show Irish culture to the 24 nations around you .But making it an official language doesn't bring you a thing." and this comes from a country who decided not to seek official status for its language despite the fact that it is spoken by its whole population.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Yoda
If Irish was the bane of your schooling, it was because of how it was taught, not because there's anything wrong with Irish.

*shudder* Amen to that. My Irish teacher for all five years of secondary school was a disgrace to both language and profession.

I used to be routinely sent to stand outside the door for Irish class, to the extent that I got into the habit of already being outside the door when he arrived for class (until the principal found me there one day and made me go back in - that's a funny story in its own right). Out of sheer boredom I'd read the textbooks while standing outside. I reckon this fact is primarily responsible for my C in Leaving Cert Irish.

I never did get past the first few pages of Peig, mind...

ReefBreak

Originally posted by thejollyrodger
Whats your problem? If you dont want to speak your own language, then fine, but dont try and stop everyone else.

Even Malta has Maltese, FFS ... WAFJ

But making Irish an Official Working Language of the EU will not make more people speak Irish. It will simply mean that every EU document will have to be translated into Irish, and every official EU meeting will need an interpreter. This will achieve nothing, unless one of the remaining 80 year-old islanders who only knows Irish gets a plum job in Brussels.

I find it annoying when I hear the Gaelic Gestapo foaming at the mouth over this issue, especially when languages that are far more widely spoken are not Official Working Languages - catalan, welsh, etc. Maltese is an Official Language becuase it is actually spoken every day by the vast majority of Maltese people.

Personally, I believe this is just a political move - Fianna Fáil are backing this simply to retrieve some of the Nationalist vote back from Sinn Féin. I expect most TDs know that it's all meaningless, and will have no affect apart from a few Jobs for the Boys.

Batbat

one word Peig, Ive hated the language ever since

Yoda

Batbat, you can either cling to such prejudice or get over it. It's not the language's fault.

ReefBreak: "Gaelic Gestapo" me arse.

grumpytrousers

Fianna Fáil are backing this simply to retrieve some of the Nationalist vote back from Sinn Féin. I

Arf - Shinners don't talk proper Irish anyway, as anybody who has heard Grizzly Adams knows full well...

As somebody who is 'quite' pro the Irish language inasmuch as I had a fáinne once upon a time, I really hate to see the language turned into a vote grabbing politicial football. There's no point in pretending that it's going to be 'saved' because every other 900 page European regulatino will be available as Gaeilge, any more than more people will Learn Irish becuase of this

A language lives becuase living people use it - if the teaching of Irish is improved in schools then we'd have half a chance.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Yoda
ReefBreak: "Gaelic Gestapo" me arse.

It's the best way I can describe those that want to push rather than encourage the language into places where it's not yet suited. If you disagree, then say why - unless "me arse" is the best you can come up with?