Govt wants Irish declared EU language

Batbat

Batbat, you can either cling to such prejudice or get over it.

get over it?, what are u talking about, whats the point in speaking a language that noone speakes, except in the countryside, its just a waste of time, better to learn chinese or something useful

luckat

Context:

"...It is happening all over the planet, from the snowpeaks of the Himalayas to the humid rivers of West Africa and the shantytowns of great cities in South America. The phenomenon is not new, for languages have always been in flux; languages have always died. No one alive today can hold a coversation in Hittite or Nubian. But the sheer pace of change is unprecedented. On every inhabited continent, languages keep falling silent. New replacements are rare. Linguists believe that about six thousand languages still flow into human ears: the exact total is a matter of debate. By some estimates, a maximum of three thousand are likely to be heard at the century's end, and fewer than six hundred of those appear secure. Within our children's lifetimes, thousands of human languages seem fated to dwindle away...

"...The price of that loss is beyond estimation. We have grown used to giving cultural artifacts a dollar figure: so many thousand for a Yeats manuscript, so many million for a Ming porcelain. But a language is more than any artefact. You can't slap a price tag on a language, no matter how small and obscure, any more than you can pin down the financial value of an ivory-billed woodpecker or a bill of rights."

(From Spoken Here - Travels Among Threatened Languages, by Mark Abley, published 2003 by William Heinemann, London)

Yoda

Originally posted by ReefBreak
It's the best way I can describe those that want to push rather than encourage the language into places where it's not yet suited.

It's a clever catchphrase which dismisses the efforts of real, honest people to work for change in the status quo: to work for Athbheocan or Revival.

It's true that those people have a different perception of the language than many of us. Many of them are native speakers (I'm not) which certainly is deserving of respect. All of them have a historical perspective on the language, on the richness of its vocabulary and of its literature, and on its meaning from an "ethnic" perspective.

The Swedish minority in Finland is really rather small. But Finnish law ensures real equal status to both languages, on packaging, for instance, and in a range of other services. "Push" rather than "encourage"? Sometimes you have to push for equality. I don't know what dread will befall our nation if Irish is not made an working language of the EU. But the loss of the language due to neglect and indifference would be dread indeed.

Yoda

Originally posted by Batbat
get over it?, what are u talking about, whats the point in speaking a language that noone speakes, except in the countryside, its just a waste of time, better to learn chinese or something useful

Or English, even. Count the corrections:

Get over it? What are you talking about? What's the point in speaking a language that no one speaks, except in the countryside? It's just a waste of time. Better to learn Chinese or something useful.

It isn't true that "no one" speaks Irish. Nor that it is only spoken in the countryside. (Begging the question as to why countryside dwellers are less real than town dwellers.) I live in Sutton, and used to live in Camden Street; I learned Irish as an adult. I speak it pretty much every day. And I'm an immigrant. No language is a waste of time. I'm sorry your education gave you a poor view of and respect for Irish, but clinging to dislike for it is neither noble nor useful. Get over it.

luckat

How would you reinforce people for learning and speaking Irish?

Yoda

Can you ask your question another way? I don't understand what "to reinforce someone for doing something" means. Do you mean, how would I help them to learn, or do you mean something else?

grumpytrousers

Get over it? What are you talking about? What's the point in speaking a language that no one speaks, except in the countryside? It's just a waste of time. Better to learn Chinese or something useful.

Another person who hasn't read Hard Times by Dickens then, I see.

Just because there's no 'use' per se, isn't a good enough reason not to teach it, or not to want an it to survive.

To apply your logic, there's absolutely no point in learning Music in school either, or Art.

Consider that there are, as time goes by and the world gets smaller due to improvements in communications, less and less things that make us unique as Irish people. Basically we've got diddley-eye music, and the Irish language. that's about it...

I'd hate to lose 'em completely

ishmael whale

Originally posted by Yoda
But the loss of the language due to neglect and indifference would be dread indeed.

Like many Irish people the language is something external to me, and I rarely think about it with any affection. But I can appreciate that it is a part of our cultural heritage and we should make some effort to preserve it. I admit its like the feeling you might have if you inherited your granny’s old dog. You hate the bloody thing but you feel you have to look after it for her sake.

I think you would have to accept that the language suffers from indifference rather than neglect. Resources have been invested both in Gaeltacht areas and in teaching the language in schools. The outcome of this has been declining numbers of native speakers and a legacy of hostility among the Peig generation.

There seem to be two aspects to this issue. One is preserving the amount of native speakers. The other is encouraging more people who are not speakers to learn and use the language. The Official Language Act and now this decision to apply for EU recognition don’t seem to address either concern, and seem utterly fantastic when the real extent of Irish usage is considered. I think that is the core point you might take from people acting negatively to this proposal. Its not saying that we want to kill the language, although it is unloved by many. Its saying we’d like to see sensible ideas as to how it might be preserved.

The Corinthian

Regrettably a tiny proportion of the population speaks Irish. Statistics for this vary, and should also be taken with a pinch of salt as they are often correlated by public bodies that have a stake in keeping the numbers up in the first place. And while in recent years there’s been an increase in interest for the language, in particular with for Irish speaking schools, the level of this interest is both questionably limited in size and consistency (there is no evidence to say that it is a fad rather than a longer term trend).

Of course, as much as we would like to blame the English, the reality is that we did it to ourselves. After all, the Finns spoke Russian when they got their independence at the same time as us, yet they managed to turn Finnish from an obscure and almost extinct language into the national spoken and written word. What have we achieved?

Much of the reason for this is that Irish is treated with lip service, from what I can see. Signs are bilingual almost as an afterthought. It is a prerequisite for many qualifications and grants, yet we’ve learned how to cram and circumvent the examinations. It is taught as English is - as a first language - when in reality it as foreign as French or German to most (actually, there’s ironically and probably more native German Speakers in Kerry than there are Irish).

Not that the Gaelic Gestapo would really care to admit any of this. Irish is on its way back, we’re told. Wake up and smell the coffee guys. At this stage, it is their romantic intractability that has become the languages final executioner.

Demanding that Irish be recognised as an official EU language is just more lip service, most likely for the most cynical of political reasons. It won’t save the language, but sure we’ll have done our duty and can go back to being Oirish while Irish continues to decline.

luckat

Yoda, 'reinforce' is a term used by behavioral scientists to describe how a result improves the probability of an action being repeated.

You switch on the TV and it produces instant entertainment; you are reinforced for the behaviour of clicking the switch. You thank the bus driver and he is reinforced for driving well. You text a complimentary message to someone who's afraid of mobile phones, and he's reinforced for trying out texting.

What I'm asking is this: how would you make it attractive for people to learn and speak Irish?

Batbat

people keep saying "get ovet it", that I should get over my dislike of Irish, why?, I dont so much dislike it, I just have no use for it, I do dislike that I was pressganged into learning it at school, a massive waste of my time, I shudder thinking of Peig.

There is nothing noble in learning something that has no use, languages die, its the nature of things. RIP irish language

Bri

Surely studying a language of any kind in school is not an utter waste? Any foreigner i've met abroad generally knows more languages, was taught better and is able to learn quicker...seeing as my experience of learning school languages was poor I don't see how making students do even less linguistic work is beneficial to them!

I'm going to try an avoid quadratic equations for the rest of my life - doesn't mean it didn't help me improve in the broader sense.

Paladin

You should all be very glad that English is our first language. It has allowed us to thrive economically.

American firms wouldnt not have invested in Ireland if we did not speak English, and like it or not they did create a lot of growth in our economy.

The translation of thousands of documents to Irish serves only to waste government money on a pointless translation job. Nobody (almost) in the public even reads the English ones!

Just a question on the off-topic side debate on Irish...

If you discount national identity/pride etc., what purpose is there in reviving a language?

I read a reference to music as an analogy. I personally dont hear many 1920's songs on the radio these days. Times move on. A language is a form of communication and certainly has a large part to play in the arts, but more harmonious communication between the people of the world is not a bad thing either. You cant socialise with people whose language you dont speak, and you cant learn every language. English is the predominant language in the first world, and looks like it will only grow in its dominance there. I dont see there being any problem with this, rather I welcome it.

For (distant) future people that want to re-live dead languages, there will be books, not bitter former students with whom to converse. Even if Irish is taught properly in schools, most people will forget it afterwards due to it being unnecessary in their lives. For those to whom it brings joy, national pride and so on, they will always be in the minority, as the future, is Star Trek where even Klingons speak english...;)

luckat

Paladin - Indeed I am glad that we speak fluent English; I don't see why that should preclude our speaking Irish, though. In other countries this is the norm - ever been to the Netherlands, for instance?

cujimmy

Indeed I am glad that we speak fluent English;

Sorry as a nation the Irish speak a form of english they are not fluent

luckat

Well, again, I'd like to ask: since the current teaching of Irish - indeed, the way that Irish has been taught for many years - is a disincentive to loving the language and speaking it, how would you encourage its use?

cujimmy

how would you encourage its use?

I wouldnt, I think its a dead language and of little value to Ireland today.

luckat

Well, just to start you off: maybe Irish-speaking cafes would be good - there are a couple, but the staff seem a little dismayed if you speak Irish to them. The Fainne Nua was a great idea - except that when people spoke "Gaeilge briste" they were commonly "negatively reinforced" by being corrected, rather than positively reinforced by being praised and encouraged.

The Gaelscoileanna are probably the biggest reinforcer today, especially as the children who are schooled there tend to have an astonishing facility for picking up other languages.

Any other ideas?

grumpytrousers

What I'm asking is this: how would you make it attractive for people to learn and speak Irish?

Ni Bheolain.

Naked.

If you discount national identity/pride etc., what purpose is there in reviving a language?

My point would be that you *don't* discount national identity/pride

I personally dont hear many 1920's songs on the radio these days

Hmm...if we were to discuss music - a lot of the 1920's delta blues, Robert Johnson and all that was nearly lost but for the work of some guy - think his name was Alan Lomax, who did a lot of archiving. If 'the blues' as we know it had been allowed to die out, the direction of popular music would have been very very different.

More Perry Como, anybody?

For those to whom it brings joy, national pride and so on, they will always be in the minority, as the future, is Star Trek where even Klingons speak english...

I'm not a trekkie, but did the Klingons decide at some point - 'stuff this language for a game of soldiers, the lads on the Enterprise speak English so we might as well.'

Apart. Obviously. From the fat. Guy. Who can't act at all.

I think we all accept Irish will never be pre-eminent. As a pro-Irish person, I don't even think that the govt proposal to make it a 'working' language will do much for it, bar give the anti-Irish brigade (ably led by Major General Myers in the Times) another stick to beat moderates like me with!

Still haven't heard a good reason from any of you not to encourage its preservation....and 'hating it at school and having a **** teacher' doesn't count, even if you keep saying it.

cujimmy

Irish speaking cafes. What a wonderfull business idea NOT.

Fainne Nua. Now theres a blast from the past

But the one thing in common is nobodys interested in learning or speaking a dead language

luckat

I'd forgotten the obvious - Raidio na Gaeltachta and TG4, producers of some of the best programming in the country, and the brilliant Dublin station Raidio na Life, staffed entirely by volunteers and an excellent station.

cujimmy

Originally posted by luckat
I'd forgotten the obvious - Raidio na Gaeltachta and TG4, producers of some of the best programming in the country, and the brilliant Dublin station Raidio na Life, staffed entirely by volunteers and an excellent station.

and their viewing and listening numbers are??

bonkey

Originally posted by cujimmy
Sorry as a nation the Irish speak a form of english they are not fluent

In my experience, they're generally more fluent than the English.

But I don't see what relevance the ability to speak English has on whether or not one can speak Irish.

Personally, I'm delighted I learned Irish relatively well. All appreciation and love of my national heritage aside, and looking just from the self-interest point of view : it made learning French easier, which made learning German even easier still.

It also meant that even before I had ever gone abroad and had to fend for myself, I had the opportunity to spend time in an area where I didn't speak the native tongue particularly well and got practice with learning how to struggle by in someone else's tongue rather than (ignorantly, IMHO) insisting they speak English to me because its what I wanted.

jc

jc

luckat

Returning to the book I'm reading, Spoken Here, another quote, this time about an Australian aboriginal language. This is a quote from someone working with a particular aboriginal group:

"Everything that defines who a person is, is defined by the language: their spirituality, their identity, their relationship with the environment."

Batbat

"Everything that defines who a person is, is defined by the language: their spirituality, their identity, their relationship with the environment."

People change and so does language, languages can die off just like people, as I said before its the way of things, time to move on

ishmael whale

Originally posted by luckat
"Everything that defines who a person is, is defined by the language: their spirituality, their identity, their relationship with the environment."

I'm not saying language is a completely empty bucket, but I would have said "Everything that defines who a person is, is defined in the language." rather than "by the language".

oscarBravo

Originally posted by cujimmy
Sorry as a nation the Irish speak a form of english they are not fluent

Speak for yourself.

Mind you, substituting "type" for "speak" I see that you were.

Yoda

Originally posted by Paladin
You should all be very glad that English is our first language. It has allowed us to thrive economically.

Yes. Ireland is so much better off than those poor backward Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, and Finns. :rolleyes:

Paladin

ever been to the Netherlands, for instance?

On my way there in a week. Buddies over there for the summer. They are working in restaurants. They report the language barrier as being a pain in the hole incidentally.

So in answer to my previous question, I got:

My point would be that you *don't* discount national identity/pride

To be honest I dont have a national pride in my language.
This is, like it or not, the prevalent attitude in young people (probably most older people also) in Ireland. People, school children especially, do not 'appreciate' the language. And why should they? National pride? Thats more in sync with a countries sports teams than their language these days. Being forced to learn a language they will never ever *NEED* (barring college acceptance) doesnt encourage the language imo.

I never understood why where you are born means you should have national pride in your language. Its useful for communication yes but pride? Ask the english are they proud they preserved their language and they will say, "uuh, wtf?".

Truth be told English was never preserved (since ye olde english) and neither was real Irish for that matter. Irish was a derivation from old celtic (I think). Why not try and revive old celtic? We could work with France(Normandy) and Scotland and Wales. But we wont. Because its useless and its dead. Languages grow and evolve. English in Ireland has lots of colloquial words. Thats about the only way I see any piece of Irish being preserved.

That said, it doesnt bother any dis-interested parties like myself that others want it preserved. It does however irk the pro-preservation parties because they need to interest people like me. But they wont interest many. No real incentive. Like I said, national pride is more linked with sports these days than anything else.

bonkey

Originally posted by Paladin
You should all be very glad that English is our first language. It has allowed us to thrive economically.

Maybe you could then explain how Ireland is also a world-leader in localisation skills, multi-language call-centres etc. and managed to achieve this status long before the Celtic Tiger economy forced us to start importing non-native-English speakers to do the job?

Being able to speak English has undoubtedly helped us. Having it as a first language is of questionable benefit, especially compared to the tax breaks we offered.

After all, if you look at the likes of Dell, Intel et al, they are no longer concentrating on Ireland as the main location for their "out of America" operations. They're going for other native-english speaking nations like China, Romania, and so on.

jc