Govt wants Irish declared EU language

Paladin

Yes. Ireland is so much better off than those poor backward Danes, Swedes, Norwegians, and Finns.

Cmon now Yoda. Pointless comment. I didnt want to explain the pointadly obvious.
I guarantee american investment is higher in Ireland than any of those countries.
Other things helped them develop their economies but this aint an economic lecture. English language is a MAJOR reaon for foreign investment in ireland.

Paladin

They're going for other native-english speaking nations like China, Romania, and so on.

Costs in ireland rose incredible high for manual labour. However, at the time of initial investment other locations had equally good reasons to invest. Speaking english won the investment for Ireland. Yes tax breaks helped too, workforce etc.

You will find that high end jobs in design are not moving as of yet.
Intel made big new investments in Dublin actually, not abandoning us just yet.

English speaking encourages tourism here also. Probably many more reasons then that but cant sit here and think of cause Ive to go home.

Yoda

Originally posted by Paladin
Truth be told English was never preserved (since ye olde english) and neither was real Irish for that matter. Irish was a derivation from old celtic (I think). Why not try and revive old celtic? We could work with France(Normandy) and Scotland and Wales. But we wont. Because its useless and its dead. Languages grow and evolve. English in Ireland has lots of colloquial words. Thats about the only way I see any piece of Irish being preserved.

I'm sorry, but this example of linguistic naïveté is pure hogwash. You've got the facts about the history of the English language wrong, you've posited an "Old Celtic" language which isn't attested as a literary language (and could not be reconstructed, really), and you don't know that the part of France which has a Celtic language is Brittany. And you salt this with "languages grow and evolve" as though that makes it OK for you to say that Irish is dead (which it isn't) and that it should be abandoned? Nonsense.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Yoda
I'm sorry, but this example of linguistic naïveté is pure hogwash. You've got the facts about the history of the English language wrong, you've posited an "Old Celtic" language which isn't attested as a literary language (and could not be reconstructed, really), and you don't know that the part of France which has a Celtic language is Brittany. And you salt this with "languages grow and evolve" as though that makes it OK for you to say that Irish is dead (which it isn't) and that it should be abandoned? Nonsense.

I saw that coming...

tricky D

There's poor logic in this proposal.

If Irish is to be made an official language, ~200 ppl will be employed translating European docs into Irish. The result of this is ~200 ppl get employed, at Europe's expense, to translate bureacratic Eurospeak into Irish. Given that it is presently painful enough reading these docs in English suggests that just about no one is going to be reading these docs in Irish. So that's ~200 ppl wasted on translating a subject matter many times less interesting than Peig as opposed to being used on better projects at home which could actually promote Irish, though at our Gov's expense (read that as no real Gov commitment to Irish, if you llike)

Whatever about the Gestapo label, there is imho a lot of poor focus when it comes to promoting the language:
Yesterday's news had an item on apts in Spideal, where 70% will have to speak Irish. This exclusion actually limits the opportunities for tenants who might want to move to the area to learn Irish to only 30% of the complex. (Nevermind the obvious discrimination on basis of language). Now if the 70% had to have some Irish promotion remit, that might be different.

The Irish-only signs policy in some Gaeltacht areas means fewer ppl can find their way around. This lessens the opportunity to hear the language in action for non-Irish and limited-Irish speakers. If ppl can't find their way around the area, it acts as a disincentive to visit, damaging the local economy, ultimately pushing ppl out leaving fewer Irish speakers as happened before.

The plain facts are that just about everybody can communicate in English but not in Irish. Languages are about communication first and foremost, languages that don't communicate, die and get condemned to academic dungeons. Irish is a fine language and needs to promoted properly, in the right areas, in the right way (no Peig). The bowels of European bureacracy is absolutely the wrong place for promoting it as a language useful for communication.

mo dhá phingin (?)
\r

Yoda

Originally posted by luckat
Yoda, 'reinforce' is a term used by behavioral scientists to describe how a result improves the probability of an action being repeated.

I was unfamiliar with this technical term.

What I'm asking is this: how would you make it attractive for people to learn and speak Irish?

One thing which I do is to try to raise the bar on the quality of Irish books when I typeset for Coiscéim. The Irish edition of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland which was published last year is (if I may say so) beautifully presented – and it is a stunningly superb translation as well.

Obviously there isn't a magic formula. That new Gaelscoileanna are founded each year is a sign that some people at least are interested in the Revival (often parents who don't have Irish themselves send their kids to a Gaelscoil). I'm told that all things being equal, education at the Gaelscoileanna is superior to English-medium schools not only because bilingual children have a measurable advantage over monoglot children, but also because the teachers tend to be more motivated. Perhaps a serious investment in many new Gaelscoileanna throughout the country could be considered. It would take a lot of teacher training; we ought to have a Gaelic university to help with that.

One thing which would, I think, help learners, would be the provision of Irish subtitles as an option on Irish television programming. Many people read before they can speak, and find that subtitling in the same language helps reinforce connection to the spoken language.

Dancing duck

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

If you have no love for the language, fine. The people who have love for their language slipped through the education system's *almost* foolproof plan to kill it off through bad teaching and a bad curriculum, and I can say for myself and others I know, that for the most part we're pained by others lack of passion and even personal ambition.

Those of you who have absolutely no interest in it, would you still not agree that if it could be taught properly (for instance concentrating solely on speaking the language until secondary school) then having it as a second language on almost the same level of English, would not be of any harm to anyone?

As someone has already mentioned with The Netherlands, virtually all the Central and Eastern European countries somehow manage to produce students completely fluent in English, their native language, and reasonable at usually one or two others (French, Spanish, German, Italian). Their intellect could not be that different to our owns, why then do we settle for 3rd best? As it is, even judging from the internet alone, the standard of written English used by Irish people is below the average, ridiculous considering it is what most of us have spoken, written, read for all our lives.

What we need is a revival of the Gaelic League and declaring Irish an official EU language should be a beginning of this. It is the official language of the country, it is a beautiful language, with or without Peig Sayers, and there is no reason it could not become a useful language used with confidence by the population, sociably at least. If the system could implement new methods onto the incoming generation, then there are few reasons why these guinea pigs would react badly to it

FOR GOD'S SAKE, why are people so happy to replicate this part of the English culture? We had our own, it was older than theirs and we fought long battles to get back all that was once ours. Why then did we say, ah, you know what, let's just keep their language it saves a bit of hassle and means we can move around with more ease. The Irish look at the cultures presented to them in the programmes, films, etc. and since the British, Americans, Australians... speak only one fluent language we've come to think it okay that we can too. We spoke Irish for thousands of years, we've spoken English for 150 and already it's our language of choice. What's wrong with this picture? What isn't?

I agree with Yoda on the importance of the Gaelscoil. My greatest regret is that I never went to one (and I've at least another 5 friends who feel exactly the same).

Dancing duck

An apt link: (see pride)

http://www.rnw.nl/special/en/html/gaelic011221.html

Paladin

I'm sorry, but this example of linguistic naïveté is pure hogwash. You've got the facts about the history of the English language wrong, you've posited an "Old Celtic" language which isn't attested as a literary language (and could not be reconstructed, really), and you don't know that the part of France which has a Celtic language is Brittany. And you salt this with "languages grow and evolve" as though that makes it OK for you to say that Irish is dead (which it isn't) and that it should be abandoned? Nonsense.

Nicely dodged. Avoid making any valid points about why we should have national pride and preserve the language, and yes, jump up and down pointing out Im not a language expert, whilst my point the whole time is that I dont NEED to be and almost nobody needs to be when it comes to irish. Hence it declining.

Whilst I dont go diggin up facts on Bretons my point is this: at what point did old english become a dead language? It can be reconstructed to a large degree, but who the hell cares? Nobody except scholars. Saying that languages grow and evolve makes it PERFECTLY ok for me to say the Irish language is DYING (didnt say it was dead I dont think).

Best comment Ive read so far to promote Irish is

quote:

---

What I'm asking is this: how would you make it attractive for people to learn and speak Irish?

---

Ni Bheolain.

Naked.

Translating EU documents does F all (not that I care about the revival, just the wasted money in the translations).

Paladin

Those of you who have absolutely no interest in it, would you still not agree that if it could be taught properly (for instance concentrating solely on speaking the language until secondary school) then having it as a second language on almost the same level of English, would not be of any harm to anyone?

Harm is a strong word. It doesnt harm anyone having knowledge. However, given that you said:

As it is, even judging from the internet alone, the standard of written English used by Irish people is below the average, ridiculous considering it is what most of us have spoken, written, read for all our lives.

would it not be better to devote the time given in schools to Irish to English instead? Or math? Or computer skills? Or music, science or history (of ireland perhaps).
Or at least give students the CHOICE? (Think our level of english is not bad compared with the awful state of basic enlish in English and US education - Aus and NZ might be par or better, I dont really know)

Of course it harms nobody. Its just its relative usefulness compared to other fields and languages is limited.

As for other countries abilities in foreign languages...
They NEED to learn english more than we need to learn any non-english language. All their neighbours speak different languages and english has become a happy medium. Fortunate for us indeed. However beyond english and their own language, they are no better than us at "foreign" languages. French, german and spanish are probably the most popular in Ireland, and one of these is a requirement to enter most universities here.
[edit] Actually they are probably a little better, having had the experience of learning another foreign language, which helps with learning future languages imo.[/edit]

Yoda

I didn't dodge, Paladin. I pointed out that your argument wasn't even specious, since none of your points relate to the position Irish is in.

Irish is no longer in decline. There was a time when it was moribund, but it seems clear that that time has past. Irish is well-established, and has many speakers, even if they are clearly in the minority. Even if you consider parts of the census response as "wishful thinking" in terms of Irish-language competence, still a significant percentage of the population of Ireland considers Irish-language competence to be a laudable thing. (If they didn't, why would they report themselves as active or passive users of Irish? They're not obliged to.)

I don't know whether or not you are a monoglot English speaker or if you have learned some other language in addition to Irish. In my experience monoglots tend not to understand the value of speaking more than one language. That's especially a problem with monoglot English speakers, whether they are in the US, in Britain, or in Ireland. A lot of "the ugly American" metaphor is not restricted to North Americans as it has to do with the rather imperialistic "everyone speaks English" attitude some of those people evince when travelling. Does monolingualism benefit Irish people?

No. monolingualism doesn't benefit anyone.

Old English is a West Germanic language similar to Icelandic which was transformed into Middle English by an enormous introduction of French vocabulary and a concomitant collapse of its inflectional system. This transformation occurred between 1100 and 1300. Middle English looks like Modern English because the spelling hasn't changed much, but was pronounced very differently; the transformation in pronunciation from Middle to Early Modern English occurred in the space of a generation before 1500. OE c1000 "Fæder ure, þu þe eart on heofonum, si þin nama gehalgod" > ME c1400 "Oure fader, that art in heuenis, halowid be thi name" > ENE 1611 "Our father, which art in heauen, hallowed be thy name" > LNE 1928 "Our father in heaven, hallowed be your name".

But this historical process has nothing whatsoever to do with the position of Irish as a spoken language in 1851 vs in 2004. The replacement of Irish by English is not a case of "evolution", so again, your argument about linguistic change is simply misinformed. The British Government in Ireland forbade the teaching of Irish in schools, and the Famine which hit Irish speakers in particular had a devastating, but not fatal, affect on the status of the language. It did not die out, and it did not transform into another language, as is the case with Old English that you cite.

Dancing duck

would it not be better to devote the time given in schools to Irish to English instead? Or math? Or computer skills? Or music, science or history (of ireland perhaps).
Or at least give students the CHOICE? (Think our level of english is not bad compared with the awful state of basic enlish in English and US education - Aus and NZ might be par or better, I dont really know)

There is adequete time devoted to English and Maths in schools, the reason Irish people are better at speaking than writing English is because of how it is taught. We have no problems with how Maths is being taught at present, and in fact, my primary school (can't comment on others) spent twice as much time each day doing it as they did Irish or English.

I think most people agree at this stage that students should have the CHOICE to take Irish at secondary level. I do know that attracting genuine interest in the language in a country as full of cynics as this one, is highly unrealistic. Better we give a high-standard of Irish and actual fluency to those of us who still have enough respect for their culture to know its language is something which should be preserved even if it's going to be of no benefit in the big bag workplace.

I wonder am I the only one here feeling unbelievably frustrated now knowing just how many would happily stand by and see the language die.

Batbat

An apt link: (see pride)

http://www.rnw.nl/special/en/html/gaelic011221.html

Thats an interesting article, one point is thay find it strange that most irish people hate their own language, i dont find it strange at all, when you consider how it was taught in school, that book Peig is a disgrace

Zaphod

Originally posted by tricky D
There's poor logic in this proposal.
So that's ~200 ppl wasted on translating a subject matter many times less interesting than Peig as opposed to being used on better projects at home which could actually promote Irish, though at our Gov's expense (read that as no real Gov commitment to Irish, if you llike)

\r

That's a fair comment. I guess the one idea against that, even if it is somewhat nebulous, is that giving Irish official status helps counter the notion prevalent in the Gaeltachtaí down the years that it was 'Teanga an bhochtanais' (the language of poverty). It makes it that much easier to argue to native speakers, particularly the young, abouting retaining it if you can show that it is on an equal footing with other languages throughout the EU.

Originally posted by tricky D


The Irish-only signs policy in some Gaeltacht areas means fewer ppl can find their way around. This lessens the opportunity to hear the language in action for non-Irish and limited-Irish speakers. If ppl can't find their way around the area, it acts as a disincentive to visit, damaging the local economy, ultimately pushing ppl out leaving fewer Irish speakers as happened before.

\r

The signs in the Gaeltachtaí are already in Irish, and have been since the 60's thanks primarily to the actions of groups such as Cumann Cearta Sibhialta na Gaeltachta (civil rights group). The legislation merely rectifies the situation by ensuring all maps will now use the Irish name as well.

Dancing duck

Originally posted by Batbat
Thats an interesting article, one point is thay find it strange that most irish people hate their own language, i dont find it strange at all, when you consider how it was taught in school, that book Peig is a disgrace

And when did you read that book? 5th or 6th year after already having done 12 years of the language with no mention of the Blasket Islands?

Yoda

Originally posted by Batbat
Thats an interesting article, one point is thay find it strange that most irish people hate their own language, i dont find it strange at all, when you consider how it was taught in school, that book Peig is a disgrace

"I hated the way the language was taught me in school. I hated Peig's book. So I hate the language, even though none of this is the language's fault, and I'm too stubborn and inflexible to say, "Hey, I don't have to hate the language or tell people how much I hate it."

Get over it already. :rolleyes:

bonkey

Originally posted by tricky D
The Irish-only signs policy in some Gaeltacht areas means fewer ppl can find their way around.

Really? The only people I can see it causing a problem for are what Yoda has already described as English-speaking monoglots.

Unsurprisingly, most Europeans are well-versed in travelling around countries where they don't speak much/any of the local lingo. Some European nations (like Switzerland, where I live) will have signs in different languages depending on what part of the nation you are currently in.

In my experience, the only people who would have a problem even considering that (say) La Neuville might be called something else in the German-speaking areas (Neuenburg) and so on are the "we only speak english" crew.

So call me hard-hearted, but I honestly don't see Irish signposts as a problem except for English-only speakers...and lets fdace it....the language of the signage is likely to be the least problem they face in the Gaeltacht.

If ppl can't find their way around the area,

...then they haven't figured out how to buy maps in the language of the area they're visiting, or that they need to learn the local name for the major places.

The Swiss-Germans know Geneva as Genf. Thats how they signpost it too. You think they're wrong, seeing as they haven't put the Romansch, French and Italian words up there on every sign too???

it acts as a disincentive to visit,

I don't believe so. I think the problem you're seeing is one that is something most of the population of Europe live with on a regular basis and don't spare a second thought to.

The only people who have a problem with it are those who just aren't used to dealing with more than one language and realising that there is a bit of work associated with it. Personally, I'd rather see those people exposed to the problem so that they learn how to deal with it....

languages that don't communicate, die and get condemned to academic dungeons.

I can't think of a single language in history which has died because of a lack of communicative ability.

I can think of several which have been attempted (like Irish) to be destroyed to sever a cultural tie that a conquered people had with their free past.

I can think of several (well, pretty much all languages actually) which have "mutated" over time to reflect the changing cultural makeup of those who speak it.

I can think of languages which have died becauase the civilisation which spoke them died first (e.g. Latin) resulting in the resurgence of local tongues (albeit Latin-tinted..see previous point).

But I really think you're making up your reasoning here about "lack of communication".


jc

ishmael whale

Originally posted by bonkey
So call me hard-hearted, but I honestly don't see Irish signposts as a problem except for English-only speakers...and lets fdace it....the language of the signage is likely to be the least problem they face in the Gaeltacht.

English-only speakers don't seem to have any particular problem in the Gaeltacht, as they share that language with most of the inhabitants. However, the point about placenames has to do with the imposition of redundant or manufactured Gaelic names where other names are actually the ones in daily use. It seems to be another daft imposition coming from the Official Language Act.

This issue has already attracted an amount of comment on a thread in the Commuting/Transport area.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irel...?view=Eircomnet
quote:

Placenames plan is 'ridiculous' - tourism chief
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 1st July, 2004

The Chairman of the North West Tourism Board has described as "absolutely ridiculous" the new Placenames Order (Gaeltacht Districts) 2004.

The draft order published today by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Mr O'Cuiv, means the English version of placenames in Gaeltacht areas will no longer have legal standing.

The order will no longer permit the use of the English version of placenames in the Acts of the Oireachtas, in statutory instruments, on road and street signage or on Ordnance Survey maps.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio this morning, Councillor Sean McEniff (FF), Chairman of North West Tourism, said that in many cases "the Irish names bear no resemblance to the English versions".

He claimed the new order will result in confusion for tourists from across the border as well as England and America.

"People will not know where they are going because, after all ,when they get out their maps they are in English," said Mr McEniff.

However, Mr O'Cuiv today defended the draft order, saying he didn't understand the issues raised by Mr Eniff . "The placenames have been in Irish in Gaeltacht areas since the 1970s when Bobby Molloy made the order," Mr O'Cuiv said.

"The fact was that none of them were official in the Irish language, only in English," he said. "What the new order does is reverse that in Gaeltacht areas, making the Irish form the official one in these areas," Mr O'Cuiv added.

Mr O'Cuiv pointed out that Ordnance Survey maps show both English and Irish versions of placenames.

About 2,119 placenames of villages and towns in the country's Gaeltacht areas are listed in the draft order, which was published this morning .

"The names have been recommended by the Placenames Commission, and concern the places' history, spelling etc . . . " said Mr O'Cuiv.

"Rather than sign the order, we've given a period of consultation for people of the Gaeltacht to make submissions. Most of them will not be contentious," he added.

The draft list of the Gaeltacht placenames is available on the Department website at www.pobail.ie

tricky D

So call me hard-hearted, but I honestly don't see Irish signposts as a problem except for English-only speakers...and lets fdace it....the language of the signage is likely to be the least problem they face in the Gaeltacht.

...then they haven't figured out how to buy maps in the language of the area they're visiting, or that they need to learn the local name for the major places.

You've been missing the recent news items over here where many visitors clearly stated that it is an impediment to getting around. Some of my American and European friends agree. Also many maps sold here simply don't have the Irish names or sometimes if they do, they don't always match the direction signs. To expect all of them to know the implications of this is unrealisitic, especially when there aren't good map sellers near every other crossroad.

But I really think you're making up your reasoning here about "lack of communication".

Perhaps I needed to be more precise and said 'used for regular communication'. Its pretty obvious that a language which gets no use, dies, whether that lack of use is due to cultural progress or other political factors or something else is a separate matter.

The bigger picture wrt communication, is how does making Irish an official language, promote Irish in general and for who? If nobody reads or speaks the Eurospeak in Irish except a small pretty much closed shop of bureaucrats in Europe, where's the benefit?

Yoda

A bigger problem is that there is really inadequate signage throughout the country.

Everyone manages with Dún Laoghaire (not Queenstown of Dunleary) and Co. Laois.

Why we perpetuate the anglicized names like Ballynastangford (= Baile na Stanfard) and Mullaghanattin (= Mullach an Aitinn) is beyond me.

Obviously where Sutton = Cill Fhionntain it makes sense to keep both names, because they are different in the two languages. But the anglicized spellings are anachronistic (everyone has done Irish in school) and could easily be done away with.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by Yoda
Why we perpetuate the anglicized names like Ballynastangford (= Baile na Stanfard) and Mullaghanattin (= Mullach an Aitinn) is beyond me.

Apologies if I’m breaking any rules on duplicating posts, but I think this one by Mackerski in the commuting/transport thread below is particularly relevant and deserves a look.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=170855&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

This "let's revert to the traditional placename" approach is not without its snags. You see hints of it on the new Luas line, where two stops that I can think of (Cowper and Charlemont) were clearly considered not worth translating, presumably because of a lack of established Irish names. This seems very fair - just as I would be slow to insist on an Anglicised name for a place where everybody speaks Irish. Still, presumably to satisfy the rules on dual language signage, the signs at both of the Luas stops named above dutifully state the station name twice.

Let's leave aside attempted placename theft (Newbridge, Bagenalstown, Kells, even Dunleary if spelling purges count). Apart for this, the best example of name retrofitting I know of is Blanchardstown, Co. Dublin (as we once liked to call it). Not long after the foundation of the state, as the official bodies started looking to resurrect the old and sometimes neglected Irish language placenames, the name "Baile Luindín" came to be recorded for Blanchardstown. This was after quite a bit of research - finding an Irish name for a historically small place in one of the first parts of Ireland to lose the language proved pretty tough. The first historical reference to the village is a Latin one, to "Villa Blanchard", and Blanchard doesn't feel like a traditional Irish name. In any case, they got Baile Luindín out of an old woman who recalled it as the name of one of the coach stops on the way out of Dublin on the road to Navan. So signs were erected and the case closed.

During the sixties, another placename researcher had a fresh look, and discredited the name. He reckoned that the woman was thinking of Baile Bhluindín (Blundellstown, near the Hill of Tara), and went on to suggest that, in the absence of an established Irish name, the closest you could probably come was "Baile Blanchardstown". This was presumably deemed not Irish enough, and the place has been known as Baile Bhlainséir ever since. Whoever Mr. Blanchard was, his soul will no doubt receive much comfort from the posthumous gift of a name as Gaelige. An old cast-iron finger sign pointing to Baile Luindín survived into the 90s near St. Margarets.

This has been a long-winded way of suggesting that places should, by and large, be called what people call them, and not have names invented for them or thrust upon them just because one language is suddenly deemed more desirable than another. This means that sometimes it's reasonable to stick with an English-only name (as in Blanchardstown), other times an Irish-only one (Rosmuck probably offers no real benefit over Ros Muc, but does anybody really care?). I'd be as slow to send the language police out over a well-known name like Dingle (after all, München doesn't mind being Munich or Monaco).

Paladin

Whilst the signposts changing probably really isnt going to cause huge problems, the converse is true that it isnt going to cause any real gains. Why bother? More money wasted.

A bigger problem is that there is really inadequate signage throughout the country.

I second that.

Funnily enough yodo Im not a monoglot though not very fluent in other languages. I can speak a little (not near fluent) French, Italian and Irish to an extent. Was actually pretty good at Irish when I was about 11 or 12 but since gave up on it and my knowledge of it is pathetic now. My late uncle Barra ó Donnabháin was actually one of the biggest promoters of the Irish language. Found loads of google links about him. e.g http://www.beo.ie/2003-09/michealdemordha.asp?print=true
Needless to say his enthusiasm did not rub off on me. I am plodding away at italian but will have to wait till I go to italy for a prolonged spell before I get good at it (want to live\retire there).

Anyway, thats beside the point. Nobody has (or imo can) answer my question about why we should have national pride and preserve the language. Actually its useful to talk in irish in front of foreigners and confuse them. I conceed

Yoda

Níl sé ródhéanach chun do chuid Ghaeilge a fheabhsú, a Phaladin. Bheadh d'uncail an-sásta leis....

pork99

It's interesting that some of the most enthusiastic supporters of compulsion in the revival of Gaelic are foreigners, Yoda, the Dutch guy in the Radio Netherlands link, the English woman I once worked with who was the only person I ever heard using Gaelic at work.

This is because they chose to learn it out of personal interest and passion. Gaelic for them does not have the negative connotations it has for many (most?) Irish people. The negative impression you get from having it literally beaten (for older people) into you by extreme nationalistic, crypto-fascist, pederastic priests. I'm one of the "Peig" generation. My experience of Gaelic in school has caused me to feel physically ill whenever I hear it spoken. I'm not joking. That's a pity. There is no such thing as useless knowledge and learning a second language should make it easier to learn more languages.

I'm afraid that I consider English to be my native language. Part of the problem with Gaelic language teaching in this country is the pretence that Gaelic is everyone's native language but we are simply choosing to ingnore it. I never heard Gaelic spoken (apart from radio & TV) until I went to school. By definition your native language is the one spoken in the family you are born into. The fact is that for me that language was English. I would love to have been born into a bi- or tri- lingual family but that's just the reality. And yet Gealic was introduced as a language I already knew, as though I had some sort of Gaelic language gene that merely needed to be "switched on" - a bad start.

I have no problem with Gaelic being revived and preserved. I'm aware that it is one of the last survivors of a family of languages were once spoken across much of Europe. On that ground alone it should be preserved. Unfortunately in this country we have a tendency to prefer to do things the lazy stupid easy way. With Gaelic the lazy stupid approach is to make it compulsory for education and state jobs. The hard but smart approach is to encourage it's use in commerce and culture, to create an environment where that people want to be involved with that. That's the sort of thing which would catch my interest anyway.

I think it's interesting to look at the life and career of the writer Flann O'Brien. He grew up as a native Gaelic speaker and wrote his first books in Gaelic. However he bacame disillusioned with it and later in his life he gave up on Gaelic and worked exclusively in English. Anthony Cronin's biography of Flann O'Brien, "No Laughing Matter", descibes the situation

The first Free State Government had made Irish a compulsory subject for the school leaving certificate and it became necessary to have some knowledge of it in order to obtain an official position of any kind. Strangely enough, from that moment on the fervent enthusiasm of the first generation of language enthusiasts began to give way to widespread cynicism and apathy. The Irish people do not take kindly to compulsion and have a keen eye for all sorts of venality and jobbery.

So you have to ask yourself, which is the healthier situation for Gaelic; one were people learn it by rote in a mechanical manner to cram for exams and job advancement? Or one were an artist of Flann O'Brien's genius feels encouraged and compelled to work in it?

This country's attempts to revive Gaelic favoured quantity over quality and sadly ended up with neither.

Yoda

I'm not a foreigner. I'm a naturalized immigrant.

English is my native language too. But I guess I'm doing one of those things you think makes Irish interesting. Typesetting books is part of commerce and culture.

There's hope in your message, though. Glad to see it.

pork99

Originally posted by Yoda
I'm not a foreigner. I'm a naturalized immigrant.

My mistake, apologies!

Originally posted by Yoda

English is my native language too. But I guess I'm doing one of those things you think makes Irish interesting. Typesetting books is part of commerce and culture.

There's hope in your message, though. Glad to see it.

Had a quick look at your site, admirable work! Yes exactly what I'm on about.

Zaphod

Originally posted by tricky D
You've been missing the recent news items over here where many visitors clearly stated that it is an impediment to getting around. Some of my American and European friends agree. Also many maps sold here simply don't have the Irish names or sometimes if they do, they don't always match the direction signs. To expect all of them to know the implications of this is unrealisitic, especially when there aren't good map sellers near every other crossroad.

It's perhaps worth reiterating:

The current situation in the Gaeltachtaí is that the signs are in Irish (eg Dún Chaoin) but the maps use the "official" English version (eg Dunquin). Hence the confusion of tourists on the news reports. Once the OLA is implemented, both signs and maps will be in Irish.