Motion to disband?

po0k

From an email sent to my account on IOFFL mailing list:

Dear Members,

Although I don't want to touch on matters that are more properly dealt
with at the AGM, and though it is the attendees of the AGM that will be
the arbiters of any decisions taken, I think it proper that you be
notified in advance of my intention to propose a motion at the event
that Ireland Offline disband.

While other commentators on the Irish Internet market for their own
reasons would point to the reduction in price and increase in
availability and take-up of broadband offers as an indication of the
turnaround of the market after years of stagnation, an objective
evaluation would make plain the fact that the country continues to
languish in the doldrums by international standards, with EU accession
countries outstripping Ireland in this area, and is likely to remain
playing catch-up for some time to come.

In the context of the consistent, albeit voluntary, efforts of Ireland
Offline over the last three years to address this situation, it is
clear that this is not having an effect. Throughout the existence of
the organisation we have pursued the strategy of focussing on
individual issues that would drive the market forward in general, and
while our part in the introduction of flat-rate Internet access
services would be considered a success, our pursuit of the objectives
of support for community networks and the availability of affordable
backhaul, although adopted by the government, have been implemented
with negligible consultation with us and in a manner inconsistent with
our intent.

That the government and the department of communications have
demonstrated progressively less interest in our opinion on measures to
drive the Internet access market as it affects the residential and SME
user would further call into question our legitimacy as the
representative of these groups.

Given that, it is clear that there remains no further objective for the
organisation to focus on that can be expected to have an effect on the
availability of proper Internet access nationwide - our core remit -
and that the only reasonable course of action should therefore be to
disband, in the hope that the expansion and development of services
offered by wireless providers, bringing true platform competition to
the market, and the proliferation of community-owned, community-run
networks, addressing rural needs, will succeed where we have failed.

Should the decision be made to disband the group, this mailing list
will be deleted to prevent misuse.

I, for one, am no longer willing to act as a bulwark for where
responsibility for our current situation ultimately lies: with the
government and the department of communications, marine and natural
resources. Neither, I believe, should Ireland Offline.

Regards,

Christian Cooke
Chairman, Ireland Offline

?

oscarBravo

If you've got an opinion on this, you really ought to try to make it to the AGM and debate the motion.

iwb

I would like to attend but can't. I think the time has come for IrelandOffline to disband but not for the same reasons as the Chairman. I am in fact wondering if the statement was made as a bit of a publicity stunt? It might just work too.
I think that the organisation has become less energetic of late and possibly because it has lost some focus. In truth, the number of issues facing any organisation trying to further the cause of broadband in Ireland are multiplying rapidly. With this in mind, it would be very difficult if not impossible for IrelandOffline to continue to be as successful as it has in the past.
My hat is off to the guys who have done all the work and achieved so much over the past few years. Perhaps not too many people realise the commitment and dedication that went into what has been achieved. I think I have a fair idea and am in awe of the effort made and the results achieved.

dahamsta

Is this, like, reverse physchology?

adam

segadreamcast

I actually would've thought IOFFL would be now disbanding because it was successful in its initial two primary objectives.

IOFFL was the reason I joined these forums some 2-3 years ago...and I think it has done a great deal to force the widespread availability of broadband and flat rate services, which many of its members now avail of.

De Rebel

If there is to be talk of shutting up shop, there are two things we should think about:

1. As Moriarty said in this thread, "I'd be loath to see IO just fizzle out slowly instead of a decision being made to shut up shop if that's what the majority of the membership wanted." If we go, we should go out on a high note. Christain's e-mail is unusually downbeat for him. IOFFL has achieved a lot, especially for a small, voluntary, unfunded lobby group. We have a lot to be proud of. If the will of the membersip is not to broaden our remit, and not to pursue the remaining objectives, then we should go with our heads held high, proud of our achivements.

2. We should use the opportunity to put down one last set of markers. There is still work to be done, gaps to be filled and international benchmarks to be surpassed. If we are not going to be around to monitor the situation, then we should put on the record the key outstanding issues. IOFFL has brand recognition and external respect. Our swansong would be guaranteed airtime.

MarcusGarvey

Jesus, that is a very downbeat e-mail. I've got to wonder like Adam suggested whether it's a way to get others to go "No no no" and fight and kick and scream to keep IOFFL going.

If IOFFL does go away I think it needs to be quickly replaced with something else to represent us the consumers. I also think if IOFFL shuts up shop it's extensive contact list should be given to another group or individuals that could make use of it. It would be a massive shame if another group started and had to build all its contacts and facts from scratch.

shinzon

this is a ridiculous e-mail to send out, just because some of the aims of IOFFL were met, doesnt mean you can say ah well we met what we set out to do, so now we can bugger off and let some other person take up the fight

Theres still so much to do, alternative last mile et etc etc

Shin

De Rebel

Originally posted by shinzon
Theres still so much to do, alternative last mile et etc etc

That there is more to do goes without saying.

This will come down to whether or not there is anybody to do it. I guess we will see answers at the AGM

Paddy20

Motion to disband ?...

:eek: Are you insane ?...

seamus

Originally posted by De Rebel
That there is more to do goes without saying.

This will come down to whether or not there is anybody to do it. I guess we will see answers at the AGM

I think this is the crux of the situation. This forum has been quite in the last months - certainly when compared to the feverish times around the end of the DSL trials. It's certainly an indicator of something that we all hoped wouldn't happen, but knew would anyway - those involved who got their hands on DSL/Cable/Flat-rate simply forgot about IOFFL. Their personal goal obtained, no reason to fight anymore. Tis human nature I guess. Unfortunately, IOFFL being a mostly online organisation, these people are leaving, but aren't being replaced by others in similarly dire straits - mainly becuase they either aren't online, or haven't the necessary savviness to find us.

So as far as I can see, and as others have pointed out here, there's really only two options; Disbanding, which I wouldn't be in favour of - we may be losing momentum, but there's still a lot to fight for - or Redefinition.
Now, I won't be at the AGM, so this all hot air, as I haven't got the time to get involved, but I can see a direction that IOFFL could go in.
For most of it's life, IOFFL has found itself as an unwitting pressure group on the telecoms industry as a whole, even when it tried to stay focussed on just internet issues.
Perhaps it's time to embrace the telecoms industry as a whole. After all, our internet situation has improved from 3 years ago, but our telecoms one hasn't. We still have one incumbent charging over the odds, holding all the cards, telcos involved in illegal/unethical/fraudulent practices against customers, and no real competition in the sector. Most importantly, despite all the hoo-ha, we still have a regulator with no balls, despite having a court full of them.

It's a lot of work. That's all I have to contribute

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by De Rebel
This will come down to whether or not there is anybody to do it. I guess we will see answers at the AGM

But don't you think this could have been discussed prior to the AGM on this very forum where everyone contributes ?

Call me cynical but it's like this AGM was set up with the only purpose being to disband IOFFL. Short notice and not a great location means fewer people. Some of what I would think are the high profile contributors already stated they can't go. Consultation with the membership might have been nice.

When it's put to those at the meeting that if they want IOFFL to continue they have to run it there is a high probability that right there under that pressure they might not commit. Whereas if it was discussed here in advance I'm sure people would step once more into the breach and help.

I can't go this weekend due to prior commitments and am really disappointed I can't go now. I still would have liked to have seen the future of this group debated in this forum where so much other stuff has happened rather in a small room with a handful of people in Athlone.

iwb

While I don't care to speculate further on the timing of the announcement or the location of the AGM for now, I do think further discussion is a good and healthy thing.
What about a poll here in the forum. I know we can't create one but the mods can.
We still have over 24 hours to see if there is a consensus among the wider membership, whether or not they can attend tomorrow.
1. Straighforward - disband the organisation
2. Redefine its goals.
3. Disband but pass on the 'torch' to those willing to continue it. (Could be the newly formed not for profit, headed by the Chairman)
4. look into the creation of a new entity which would take on the task of being a broader telecoms watchdog. Would have to have full time staff to achieve anything meaningful.
Just my suggestions. There are of course many other possible options for a poll. If we can be quick, we might get meaningful data back before the meeting tomorrow.

ekehoe

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey

Call me cynical but it's like this AGM was set up with the only purpose being to disband IOFFL. Short notice and not a great location means fewer people. Some of what I would think are the high profile contributors already stated they can't go.

"Not a great location"? It's pretty darn central to the country, isn't it? We've always gotten flak from the country for having the AGM in Dublin, so for once we set it up outside Dublin, and we get flak for that?

When it's put to those at the meeting that if they want IOFFL to continue they have to run it there is a high probability that right there under that pressure they might not commit. Whereas if it was discussed here in advance I'm sure people would step once more into the breach and help.

Over the years, it has been mentioned in here that we need people on the committee, someone to run it, vice chair, etc. And some have stepped forward. Most, however, don't. I'm going to say the same thing I've said over the past few years...it's unpaid, thankless (to a point), and a lot of work to keep up with. Check the archives...

I can't go this weekend due to prior commitments and am really disappointed I can't go now. I still would have liked to have seen the future of this group debated in this forum where so much other stuff has happened rather in a small room with a handful of people in Athlone.

Me too...I'd like to have hashed this out with you :-). Are you willing to join the committee? You don't have to be there to join right now. We can vote you on in absentia...

E

ekehoe

Originally posted by iwb

What about a poll here in the forum. I know we can't create one but the mods can.
We still have over 24 hours to see if there is a consensus among the wider membership, whether or not they can attend tomorrow.

I say worth a try....

E

oscarBravo

Originally posted by seamus
those involved who got their hands on DSL/Cable/Flat-rate simply forgot about IOFFL. Their personal goal obtained, no reason to fight anymore.

Cards on the table time. I got broadband recently. I got it through the hard work and dedication of members of IrelandOffline and others, and no thanks to Eircom, ComReg or the DCMNR. Based on my experiences, I have no intention of giving up the struggle - I'm going to use my experiences to help others in similar situations. Want to know more? Come to the AGM and throw popcorn at me during my presentation.

I'm not convinced that this can be achieved by a general-purpose telecommunications lobby group/consumer representative body. That's not to say that I don't believe such a body isn't required.

These are the issues, folks. They need to be discussed. Make an effort if you can, and be there on Saturday.

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
But don't you think this could have been discussed prior to the AGM on this very forum where everyone contributes ?

Isn't that what we're doing? Discussion is well and good, but the real work gets done behind the scenes by the committee (and, to be fair, mostly by a minority of them for various reasons). The direction of the organisation should be decided by those who are willing and able to put in the effort to meet in person.

Call me cynical but it's like this AGM was set up with the only purpose being to disband IOFFL. Short notice and not a great location means fewer people.

It's a fantastic location - I don't have to drive to Dublin!

When it's put to those at the meeting that if they want IOFFL to continue they have to run it there is a high probability that right there under that pressure they might not commit. Whereas if it was discussed here in advance I'm sure people would step once more into the breach and help.

No offence MG, but it seems to me that the commitment required to get to the AGM is a useful measure of the commitment required to run the organisation.

I can't go this weekend due to prior commitments and am really disappointed I can't go now. I still would have liked to have seen the future of this group debated in this forum where so much other stuff has happened rather in a small room with a handful of people in Athlone.

It doesn't need to be a handful of people. How many people read this forum? How many subscribe to the mailing list? There will be people there. The organisation will continue, or another will be formed in its place.

I don't have time to go - but I'll be there. I accept that others have prior commitments, and I'm lucky that I don't. But please folks: if you can attend, then do. If you can't, get someone else to go and speak for you. If this is as important to you as it seems from your post, then do something!

seamus

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Cards on the table time. I got broadband recently. I got it through the hard work and dedication of members of IrelandOffline and others, and no thanks to Eircom, ComReg or the DCMNR. Based on my experiences, I have no intention of giving up the struggle - I'm going to use my experiences to help others in similar situations. Want to know more? Come to the AGM and throw popcorn at me during my presentation.

Sorry, no offence intended, I should have clarified - obviously some people will stay on and continue to fight, such as yourself, but for the most part, I believe people simply jump ship once they've served themselves.

Dangger

I believe people simply jump ship once they've served themselves.

Or after they feel they've served their time.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by ekehoe

Over the years, it has been mentioned in here that we need people on the committee, someone to run it, vice chair, etc. And some have stepped forward. Most, however, don't. I'm going to say the same thing I've said over the past few years...it's unpaid, thankless (to a point), and a lot of work to keep up with. Check the archives...


Uh huh yeah Archives. When is the last time there was a call to arms ? this was the last call and it just died even though there seemed to be interest and enthusiasm.

When was the last time the active membership were asked to help out with IOFFL ? A balance is needed I think between asking every week for help and asking once a year.



Me too...I'd like to have hashed this out with you :-). Are you willing to join the committee? You don't have to be there to join right now. We can vote you on in absentia...

This gets asked a day before the AGM ? Before asking people to commit to a committee position surely they should have a longer time to think about it. I'll commit some hours to IOFFL without a problem, I'll also contribute money to help run it. Committee position, no, not without a lot or preparation beforehand.

But it's not just me I'm sure there are dozens of people who'll do the same if asked !

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Discussion is well and good, but the real work gets done behind the scenes by the committee (and, to be fair, mostly by a minority of them for various reasons). The direction of the organisation should be decided by those who are willing and able to put in the effort to meet in person. ... No offence MG, but it seems to me that the commitment required to get to the AGM is a useful measure of the commitment required to run the organisation. [/i]

Actually that is a complete an utter insult to all those great people who contribute to this forum. With two weeks notice you are only measuring commitment to IOFFL by those that can attend ? You are erasing all previous work put into IOFFL ? Two weeks ?

For something as serious as an AGM where the future of an organisation is going to be debated and finalised two weeks notice is not good enough ! Neither is an email to the supporters 2 days before the AGM from the Chairman suggesting disbandment.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
Actually that is a complete an utter insult to all those great people who contribute to this forum.

Um, no, it's not.

With two weeks notice you are only measuring commitment to IOFFL by those that can attend ?

I didn't say that.

You are erasing all previous work put into IOFFL ?

I most certainly didn't say that. Calm down and read what I did say.

For something as serious as an AGM where the future of an organisation is going to be debated and finalised two weeks notice is not good enough !

With respect, I disagree. I've organised events with months' notice, and with hours' notice. Either way, some people show up, others don't.

Neither is an email to the supporters 2 days before the AGM from the Chairman suggesting disbandment.

It's just an agenda item, and in fairness it got people talking. It would be even more constructive if we were talking about the future of the organisation instead of bickering about timing. For example, have you contacted any of the people you know are attending to see if they support your viewpoint, and to ask them to represent it at the meeting on your behalf?

Moriarty

A poll has been created here. Everyone please go vote

De Rebel

Regarding consultation on the future of IOFFL, there have been a number of attempts to provoke discussion (e.g. yellum's post here and my post here ) which generally elicit a low level of response, and most of that either from people who are already committed, or people who like to verbalise but show no willingness to step up to the plate and do some work. I'm not bitching, and we do benefit from everybody's opinion, but we also need people who go beyond the talk and actually work the issues.

In terms of our core objectives, we have achieved a lot. To move these further will need energy, commitment and drive, none of which have been in evidence here recently. In terms of becoming a "Telecommunications User Representative Body" this is a whole separate discussion. My view is that any such body would need a statutory footing, broad industry and consumer support/membership, a permanent secretariat and multi annual funding. There appears to be little appetite for such a body among the powers that be and accordingly little chance of such a body being formed.

In some respects IOFFL is unique. It is almost a virtual organisation, and as such has in many ways been a very interesting and successful experiment. But it does need a small nucleus of real people who have real meetings and do real work and interact with the real people in the real world - the presence of such a group (the committee) is critical to harness the energy and opinions expressed online and lobby accordingly.

I certainly have no principled objection to IOFFL continuing in existence, with or without a broadening of its objectives, with or without a change of name. What is important is that it does not fizzle out. If there is a core of committed people who are willing to take up the baton and achieve our agreed objectives - great - stand up and show yourselves and get on with it. If not, we should wind up. Staying here as a talking shop is pointless.

Seamus makes the valid point that the people at the core will move on for whatever reason. In fairness, some of the most committed people stayed for a long time after they received broadband. Dangger, Xian, SkepticOne, BK, moi, and i'm sure other members of the current committee as well as people like Dustaz all continued active involvement long after getting broadband. But it is the case that people do move on. Posting to boards is a soft option. What i can't see is people who have fire in their bellies and are willing to commit themselves and their time to the cause.

IOFFL successes came about because some busy people made time to contribute. It's an especially onerous commitment from people who live outside Dublin. I can vouch for that that, having attended 6 or 7 meetings over the last 2 years - each one costing me anything from 12 to 24 hours. And I know that others such as DonegalMan and OscarBravo have made even more significant time and financial commitments. None of us is looking for praise, but it is time for some of us to move on.

So who is rising to the challenge?

Who wants to take over the mantle?

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by oscarBravo
I didn't say that.

You said this:

The direction of the organisation should be decided by those who are willing and able to put in the effort to meet in person. ... No offence MG, but it seems to me that the commitment required to get to the AGM is a useful measure of the commitment required to run the organisation.

Ok maybe I misread you but from your above statement it appeared to me that you were saying only those attending should decide the future of IOFFL and to me I found it to be ignoring all those people not going but who can still make a huge impact.

The likes of Sceptre and DonegalMan can't go to the AGM even though they'd like to attend. They make some very intelligent posts and to me their opinions and input would carry more weight than the average IOFFL forum punter. Are their opinions being discounted ?

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by oscarBravo
For example, have you contacted any of the people you know are attending to see if they support your viewpoint, and to ask them to represent it at the meeting on your behalf?

Yellum (retired from boards but still around) knows my viewpoints but I don't think we agree on some things. He can represent me though. I'd pretty much agree with what Dahamsta has gone for in the past too. So those too Corkonians have my support.

De Rebel

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
So those too Corkonians have my support.

And what about this Corkonian????

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by De Rebel
And what about this Corkonian????

Well in answer to your questions:

So who is rising to the challenge?

Who wants to take over the mantle?

I'll help. Give a few hours each month. Possibly set aside a day one weekend a month and I'm sure others will too but is this not a bit late to be looking for volunteers a day before the AGM ?

dahamsta

Originally posted by ekehoe
"Not a great location"? It's pretty darn central to the country, isn't it?

Not for the bloody Corkonians it ain't.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Come to the AGM and throw popcorn at me during my presentation.

Shít, myself and yellum only have a bucket of old fruit, will that do oscarBravo?

adam

Cabaal

I can't believe this, there is far to much work to do
we are no-where near a good proper service in this country, the price is right but the caps are a big issue

SkepticOne

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
Ok maybe I misread you but from your above statement it appeared to me that you were saying only those attending should decide the future of IOFFL and to me I found it to be ignoring all those people not going but who can still make a huge impact.

The bottom line is that those turning up will be demonstrating commitment, not so much to IOFFL (which is at core only a set of goals + people who support those goals) but mainly to the industry, the politicians and others outside. This is the important thing.

Not wishing to be negative, but if only a small number turn up, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks IOFFL should do anymore. Nobody outside will take it seriously - and quite rightly so. I wouldn't.

If however, people feel as strongly as they claim, then there will be a good turnout and there may be a future. I remain hopeful. This is what I think will happen, but it is out of my hands.

Moriarty

There would almost certainly have been more people attending if the AGM wasn't sprung on people with less than two weeks notice and the possibility of shutting down the organisation less than two days before hand.