Motion to disband?

viking

Just out of mad curiosity, does anyone have a record of how many people turned up at last years AGM?

viking

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by Moriarty
There would almost certainly have been more people attending if the AGM wasn't sprung on people with less than two weeks notice and the possibility of shutting down the organisation less than two days before hand.

Here here. Actually I only saw the emails to the mailing list now.

This bit I think is of interest to anyone that isn't on the list:

To address this deficit, an organisation is needed to advise, train and support communities set up their own networks in much the same way that group water schemes were established. This has been shown to be a viable solution around the country, most notably the Knockmore Community Network in Co. Mayo (on which Paul Cunnane, the chair of the KCN, will be making a presentation at the AGM).

This is not a task of which a voluntary lobby organisation such as Ireland Offline is capable. To this end I and others have established the Group Data Scheme Society, a non-profit co-operative formed in June to assist and support communities around Ireland establish and run Group Data Schemes - community-owned, community-run networks.

So erm, how many of those that want to shut down IOFFL are part of this new Group Data Scheme Society ? Can those who post here or that are on the IOFFL committee and are in the Group DS Society step forward ? It's be interesting to see who you guys are.

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Not wishing to be negative, but if only a small number turn up, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks IOFFL should do anymore. Nobody outside will take it seriously - and quite rightly so.

Right so if a small number of people turn up which it seems you have acklowledged could happen, then IOFFL will be shut down ?

It is possible that only a small number will turn up and this may mean the closing down of the organisation

Seems to me lads that the AGM has been set up for low numbers in order for there being no other choice but to end IOFFL and so this new organisation can be concentrated on.

The fact that an email from IOFFL about a shut down is sent out less than two days before the AGM means they really didn't want people to go: "Shít IOFFL will die if I don't attend and I don't want that" and make their way to Athlone.

If I had known the shut down plans last week or two weeks ago I would have changed my plans and come along with da boyz from Cork. The initial AGM statement never mentioned the ending of IOFFL was on the cards. I really was under the impression it was going to be some presentations and a little get together in the pub after.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
If I had known the shut down plans last week or two weeks ago I would have changed my plans and come along with da boyz from Cork. The initial AGM statement never mentioned the ending of IOFFL was on the cards. I really was under the impression it was going to be some presentations and a little get together in the pub after.

Look, feel free to believe what you want. A number of the committee have been here on boards encouraging people to attend. I've been in touch with a couple of people myself directly.

In my last post I was trying to get across the importance of attending.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
So erm, how many of those that want to shut down IOFFL are part of this new Group Data Scheme Society ?

It would really help if you would stop misrepresenting people. Claiming that anyone wants to shut down the organisation is misleading at best. It's a proposal, to be put to the members at general meeting. There's a sane argument for the proposal. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do; I'm saying we need to discuss it. Calmly.

Can those who post here or that are on the IOFFL committee and are in the Group DS Society step forward ? It's be interesting to see who you guys are.

I'm one. Christian has made it clear he's another. What's your point, exactly?

Right so if a small number of people turn up which it seems you have acklowledged could happen, then IOFFL will be shut down ?

It's very simple. If the AGM votes to disband the organisation, it will be disbanded. If you don't want it disbanded, and you can't be there, then make sure someone who feels as strongly as you is there to make the case on your behalf.

It would be a help if the proponents of continuation were prepared to put in the effort to make sure the organisation is capable of achieving the goals it sets for itself.

Seems to me lads that the AGM has been set up for low numbers in order for there being no other choice but to end IOFFL and so this new organisation can be concentrated on.

As SkepticOne has said, believe what you want.

The fact that an email from IOFFL about a shut down is sent out less than two days before the AGM means they really didn't want people to go: "Shít IOFFL will die if I don't attend and I don't want that" and make their way to Athlone.

Now you're not even making sense. Can't you see that this paragraph directly contradicts itself?

If I had known the shut down plans last week or two weeks ago I would have changed my plans and come along with da boyz from Cork. The initial AGM statement never mentioned the ending of IOFFL was on the cards. I really was under the impression it was going to be some presentations and a little get together in the pub after.

That would have achieved a lot, wouldn't it? At least this way there's some discussion about the future of the organisation.

dahamsta

Originally posted by oscarBravo
At least this way there's some discussion about the future of the organisation.

Originally posted by dahamsta
Is this, like, reverse physchology?

MarcusGarvey may be a wee bit vehement in his statements, and I guess the conspiracy theories aren't helping much, but seriously, what do you expect people to think? The AGM was announced on the 3rd for the 17th, the agenda was announced on the 11th, and then the Chairman fires off a missive that he appears to have considered long and hard on the 15th, proposing that the organisation be disbanded.

Of course there's probably no conspiracy at all, but if that's the case the handling of this is... well... a tad on the Monty Python side. I'm seeing a general wandering in from the wings saying "Stop that now, this sketch is far too silly!"

Anyway, see you all tomorrow. Looking forward to the pints if nothing else.

adam

De Rebel

Originally posted by dahamsta
Anyway, see you all tomorrow. Looking forward to the pints if nothing else.

I can confirm that the pints in Athlone are very good. Arrived an hour ago and just finished the first. Heading off to Sean's now for another one or two or six. See you all tomorrow.

De Rebel

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
So erm, how many of those that want to shut down IOFFL are part of this new Group Data Scheme Society ? Can those who post here or that are on the IOFFL committee and are in the Group DS Society step forward ? It's be interesting to see who you guys are.

I'm on the committee, I have no involvement whatsoever in the Group Data Scheme Society.

dahamsta

Originally posted by De Rebel
I can confirm that the pints in Athlone are very good. Arrived an hour ago and just finished the first. Heading off to Sean's now for another one or two or six. See you all tomorrow.

If Muck's not going to be there tomorrow buy him a pint for me, I'll sort you out when I see you.

adam

obewan

What people see mto be missing here is:

There are people who can be Committe Members because they can talk the jargon with good knowledge of Internet Access ie: DSL/ADSL/Copper Lines/Finances etc.

Then there are people like myself who wants Fast Access and cheap rates, but on most occasions "feel out of my depth" when discussing the ins and outs of Internet Access/Telecoms., etc.

What I'm saying here is most people are NOT confident enough to be in the "Firing Line" and that includes myself.

I would not like to see IOFFL disband simply because there are thousands of others like myself who still cannot get Broadband yet, maybe never if Eircon have their way. The battle may be won but the War still rages on.

I come on Boards so I can get information from people's posts so I can enhance my meagre arguments when dealing with the likes of Eircon/EsatBT. Boards is my Learning Zone, so I hope it remains alive until the War is won.

MIck.

dahamsta

For the record, you don't need to be some kind of whizkid to serve on the committee of IrelandOffline, or any other similar organisation, you just have to be /interested/.

These groups don't sit around all day talking technical jargon at each other, in fact quite often this is impossible because invariably two people that really do understand the relevant topic will take over the conversation, which can be more disruptive than anything else.

What happens is that the technical stuff gets discussed off-list or outside the group, in small gatherings in the pub, via IM, or of course email. More importantly though, the technical stuff invariably has very little bearing on the operations of the organisation, because, and this is important, really good technical people have thought of all the really cool technical stuff before.

Committees discuss strategies, implementations, and most often when the next meeting will be held, where to hold it, who's getting the first round in, where the feckin' minutes are from the last meeting, and why minutes weren't in fact taken at the last meeting.

To put it bluntly, committees are, for the most part, a pain in the hole that achieve very little in the wider scheme of things. But they're a necessary evil, and almost /anyone/ can serve on them. If you can make tea, you can make a valuable contribution. Probably more valuable than most of the other people in fact.

adam

Moriarty

Are you implying that others on the ioffl committee aren't capable of making a good cup of tea?

ekehoe

Originally posted by dahamsta
For the record, you don't need to be some kind of whizkid to serve on the committee of IrelandOffline, or any other similar organisation, you just have to be /interested/.

I think I'm proof of that. I really don't have a clue over what the tech side is. I do know how to fight for people tho, and to get info from people (DH says I'm an excellent social engineer).

E

DonegalMan

FWIW, I don't think this is the right way to decide the future of IOFFL.

What it boils down to is that the current Chairman and committee believe that IOFFL has no real future and should wind down gracefully rather than wither away.

They may be right. I'm not entirely convinced of that but I give a lot of credence to those who are carrying out the real work and know what the real situation is.

It's easy for people on the sidelines to say "Do this...do that" but it takes people who believe in those issues and have the commitment to carry them out.

I do not believe, however, that the decision should be taken today with probably a limited attendance at the AGM. We are right in the middle of the holiday season and a it is simply not practical for quite a few people to make the meeting.

I suggest that the final decision on this be deferred to an Extraordinary General Meeting to be held early September. This will give plenty of time for the issues to be debated and people who care to arrange to attend the meeting.

Most importantly of all, it will allow time to see if a new committee can be formed who will carry the organisation forward.

If such a committee cannot be formed, then the issue will have resolved itself.


Martin Harran

dahamsta

Originally posted by Moriarty
Are you implying that others on the ioffl committee aren't capable of making a good cup of tea?

Nope. In fact I can confirm that at least two of them make an excellent cup of tea!

I like the way Martin stats off with, "What it boils to is..."

I think Martin has a very good idea there btw. Speaking personally, I'm half-and-half on the idea of IrelandOffline disbanding, however the negative half only comes out of a wish to see a new-and-improved IrelandOffline, and a consideration that it might be an idea to start afresh. However I think that it's neither wise nor appropriate to be approaching it today.

Anyway, I'm just about to hop into Otto, see you later.

adam

De Rebel

Originally posted by DonegalMan
What it boils down to is that the current Chairman and committee believe that IOFFL has no real future and should wind down gracefully rather than wither away.

Good post Martin.

Oddly enough, the committee has not expressed a view. The committee has not met recently. The committee has not recently debated the future of IOFFL and is not making a proposal.

The e-mail which was sent by the Chairman earlier this week was not seen by or discussed with the committee in advance. It was composed and circulated by the Chairman without the knowledge or approval of the committee. In a more formal environment, it would be reasonable to say that the chairman was acting ultra vires.

Your overall proposal makes a lot of sense. While I am skeptical about the likelihood of IOFFL continuing in any meaningful way, I certainly believe that winding up should be given some thought, and done in an orderly way. And those who have a different view should be given the opportunity to prove their commitment.

I will attempt to put your proposal forward this afternoon.

Paddy20

Group Data Scheme Society ?...

Never heard of it before this thread Is it a big secret ?... and why if an e-mail about it was sent out to members, did I NOT receive one :eek: .

As someone who mentioned before on this forum the advantages of the co-operative movement. A bit more information would be appreciated .

Thanks,

Paddy.

BTW, Martin/DonegalMan's proposal that this motion be deferred is IMO the only sensible , mature and respectful solution to what looks like a 'fiasco' at this juncture

DonegalMan

Originally posted by De Rebel
Oddly enough, the committee has not expressed a view. The committee has not met recently. The committee has not recently debated the future of IOFFL and is not making a proposal.

The e-mail which was sent by the Chairman earlier this week was not seen by or discussed with the committee in advance.

In those circumstances, I would find it extremely disturbing if a decision were taken today to wind up the organisation.

One issue that springs immediately to mind is that The Chairman in his email said that if the organisation is wound up, the database of members will be destroyed. He is quite correct in this - I was largely instrumental in assembling the original list and gave a commitment to people that the database would never be passed to anyone outside IOFFL. I do not think, however, this should be done immediately after any vote today to wind up. There is at least a possibility that any decision today could be reversed by the rank and file membership and the membership database is a vital part of the organisation.

Bearing in mind that IOFFl has a somewhat vague constitution, I would strongly advise the current officers to tread carefully.

Martin Harran

De Rebel

Martin

Your proposal was put to the meeeting pretty much as you worded it, and was accepted following a vote.

An interim committee has been appointed to hold sway until the egm in early september.

The consensus at the meeting appeared to be in favour of winding up, but not necessarilly today.

So..............

The challenge is................

If peolple want IOFFL to continue, then a committee with a long term objective and a long term committment must emerge by the time the egm takes place. If it does not, IOFFL will be wound up.

Paddy20

I should have thought that the 70% + voting for IrelandOffline to continue and even -expand - it's pro-active influence on the future of Irish telecom services. On Motiarity's poll, should already be a strong enough indication as to how IOFFL members feel, about the "Winding Up" proposal :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Paddy20
I should have thought that the 70% + voting for IrelandOffline to continue and even -expand - it's pro-active influence on the future of Irish telecom services. On Motiarity's poll, should already be a strong enough indication as to how IOFFL members feel, about the "Winding Up" proposal :rolleyes:

Of the (at my last count) 77 people who voted that the organisation should continue, the really telling figure will be just how many show up at the EGM, and how many will be prepared to put in the work required to achieve results.

damien

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Of the (at my last count) 77 people who voted that the organisation should continue, the really telling figure will be just how many show up at the EGM, and how many will be prepared to put in the work required to achieve results.

You're dead right. I bitched and moaned enough on this forum and yesterday I put my money where my gob was and stepped forward. As did the rest of the interm committee.

But even say 8 passionate enthusiastic people on the committee will still result in failure for what we all want. We need the people who post here and keep saying they want changes, we want these people to come forward and commit. Commit to coming to the EGM and commit to giving time every week to help IOFFL. Only then can we make an impact.

Yoda

Some things to be said about the Chairman's motion to disband. It was a long time coming, his decision to make that recommendation, and it didn't come easily. But it did come as a result of a year of extremely hard work, most of which was frustrated by the fact that Government simply doesn't want to listen. (It should be noted that the letter to the membership was written in the first person singular, not the first person plural, and simply informed the membership that the Chairman was going to make a motion to the AGM and the reasons why. This is not, as DeRebel suggested, ultra vires. But let us not get bogged down with that, or in the question of its original timing. Today is today.)

Government ignored IOFFL's submission on the USO. Government took the Group Data Scheme idea and turned it into the chimera of the Group Broadband Scheme, which is unlikely to be able to do what it says on the tin. That is why the Group Data Scheme Society is being formed: because Ireland cannot wait for Government to realize that it's scheme isn't anywhere near as sound as the original. Rural communities don't need Government to get them broadband. They can get it themselves.

I saw a number of posts of protest from people who can't get broadband in their area from Eircom. Well, as far as I can see, the only thing IOFFL could do to try to get all those exchanges enabled and all of that is to lobby to get the Government to force Eircom to spend bezillions on laying new copper or cable or fiber, in all of those places where the infrastructure is so poor now anyway because they're marginal to Eircom's profits. That doesn't make sense to me, because wireless technology is better, and will remain better and more innovative in the future. And the GDSS cooperative will enable people to do it themselves. It will surely snowball, and Ireland will become wireless. Before the rest of Europe.

I can see that there was sense in the AGM not deciding to take summary action to disband. An eventual disbandment should be crafted carefully, should first outline IOFFL's successes, and then its failures, and the reasons for them. (Which seem to be "Government stopped listening and relying on IOFFL's expertise".) So now you've got a new interim committee. I don't envy them the frustration they will be in for if they decide to go forward after the EGM.

I guess in the interim period their task will be to outline an agenda of coherent, actionable, achievable goals (it should be a short list – a realistic one, not an idealistic one). They will also want to look at their actual resources in terms of numbers of volunteers whom they can expect to actually follow through, the amount of time they can take off work to attend meetings and press releases and go on the radio and wordsmith position documents and draft responses to consultation documents. And so on.

Good luck to them, if they find that they have achievable goals and the resources to fight for them.

I think IOFFL has done a superb job. It achieved FRIACO, and that introduced Broadband to a great many people who can use the existing infrastructure. For those who can't, they should circumvent it and build their own. GDSS arose from IOFFL. That will be counted as another of IOFFL's successes, I am sure.

damien

*bump*

So, did the new IrelandOffline meet expectations?

SkepticOne

damien.m wrote:

So, did the new IrelandOffline meet expectations?

My expectations were met.

The Real B-man

Must have all got broadband and are now ****ing off

byte

Yup, I'd say so. I think you guys have done a lot and proved there is still a need for IOffL, and will be for time to come.

oscarBravo

The Real B-man wrote:

Must have all got broadband and are now ****ing off

Who??

cgarvey

Closed .. of course you're welcome to bring the motion to disband to the AGM, but this was an old thread.. We can reflect on the last year's performance in a new thread, if needs be.