NZ suspends diplomatic relations with Israel

bonkey

I'm sure there'll be plenty of people decrying the NZ actions as some "typical anti-semiitc conspiracy-theory-driven" type of action, but I'm wondering if anyone has more information and/or thoughts on the issue.

(Oh - if you haven't heard : Courtesy of Google news)

Personally, I don't know what to think yet....I must go find more about this when I have a chance later today...

jc

Gurgle

Good.
About time someone made a point of not being used by Israel.
And its not anti-semitic, its anti state-sponsored terrorism.

Hobbes

From what I read they are cutting ties due to the fact the Mossad were getting NZ passports to commit crimes (assination cited), not for any actions Israel has done elsewhere.

So I don't see how they can play the anti-semite card.

The Corinthian

I get the impression that Israel is unlikely to protest this matter or play the anti-Semitic card this time - in part because their operatives were caught pretty much red handed (and so it's just less embarrassing to let the matter drop) and in part because NZ is not really that important on the World stage.

Bit of a non-story, TBH.

Champ

From what I read they are cutting ties due to the fact the Mossad were getting NZ passports to commit crimes (assination cited), not for any actions Israel has done elsewhere.

Scrutinly put.

So I don't see how they can play the anti-semite card.

Well; i always find expecting the unexpected leads to less surprises :dunno:

Orion

Originally posted by bonkey
I'm sure there'll be plenty of people decrying the NZ actions as some "typical anti-semiitc conspiracy-theory-driven" type of action

If they did they'd be ignored by any intelligent people listening. I'm boycotting all Israeli produce in my local supermarket - that doesn't make me an anti-Semite - it makes me opposed to the policies of the Israeli government. What religion they are does not give the the right to abuse human rights no matter how big a chip on their shoulder they have.

Typedef

Personally I would like to see the EU impose a trade embargo on Israel, due to the fact that Israel, more then any other country *in the world* has flouted the United Nations, for decades.

Sure, some people throughout the Union would support such a measure due to anti-semitism, most would support it because Israel makes a mockery of multilateral politics, and hides behind military might and political/economic support from the United States.

So, what, the move would be labelled as anti-semitic?

You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs.

From where I sit. Israel is a modern day apartheid state and just like that other famous apartheid state "South Africa", I believe it is time for non-US Western countries to assert a broadly held moral belief that apartheid is wrong and that contries who insist in engaging in such practices should be ostracised from the benefit of doing business with the Western World, until such countries reform.

South Africa had economic sanctions applied to it, for being an apartheid regieme. Iraq, had economic sanctions applied to it, for various political and military reasons, as did the former USSR and any number of dictatorships and repressive regiemes around the world.

When you get right down to it, sanctioning Israel, economically, from a 'massive' entity like the EU, would cause a monumental shift in Israeli policy, that fourty years of huffing and puffing in the UN has failed to achieve.

ReefBreak

I would only agree with it if the NZ government also suspends diplomatic relations with the Palestinian leadership, who continue to support Palestinian terrorism.

Ditto with any boycotting - both sides or neither.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Macros42
If they did they'd be ignored by any intelligent people listening. I'm boycotting all Israeli produce in my local supermarket - that doesn't make me an anti-Semite - it makes me opposed to the policies of the Israeli government. What religion they are does not give the the right to abuse human rights no matter how big a chip on their shoulder they have.

I assume you're also boycotting any Palestinian products that you might see, as a protest against the actions Palestinian terrorists?

Note: I am not an apologist for either side, but I fail to see how you can criticise one side, and not the other.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Hobbes
From what I read they are cutting ties due to the fact the Mossad were getting NZ passports to commit crimes (assination cited), not for any actions Israel has done elsewhere.

So I don't see how they can play the anti-semite card.

A fair point (as I didn't initially see the alleged reason given by NZ).

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Typedef
Personally I would like to see the EU impose a trade embargo on Israel, due to the fact that Israel, more then any other country *in the world* has flouted the United Nations, for decades.

Yeah, I'd love to see that happen to Israel too, but as most of their trade is done with the US they probably wouldn't give a sh*te what the EU did.

I don't buy knowingly Israeli goods on principle anyway...

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would only agree with it if the NZ government also suspends diplomatic relations with the Palestinian leadership, who continue to support Palestinian terrorism.

They suspended diplomatic relations with Israel because official agents of the Israeli nation, apparently acting in their official capacity deliberately comitted criminal acts in New Zealand.

To treat Palestine in the same manner means that they should not break off diplomatic relations with Palestine until such times as Palestinian agents, apparently acting in their official capacity, commit crimes in New Zealand and are found guilty of them.

It does not mean dropping relations with Palestine for an entirely seperate reason.

jc

Orion

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I assume you're also boycotting any Palestinian products that you might see, as a protest against the actions Palestinian terrorists?

Note: I am not an apologist for either side, but I fail to see how you can criticise one side, and not the other.

I do also oppose the suicide bombing. But the Palestinian Authority (whether rhetoric or not) have often called for an end to the attacks.

On the other hand Israel is practicing state sponsored terrorism - destroying houses, indiscriminately firing missiles into crowds, defying numerous UN resolutions since 1967, and building an apartheid wall. (see Typedef's post regarding apartheid).

But if it keeps you happy the next time I see something on my supermarket shelves marked "Country of Origin: Palestine" )after I stop celebrating that they have a real country) I'll refuse to buy it.

gandalf

BBC are carrying the story now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3899583.stm

Unfortunately it has triggered vandalism on Jewish graves in New Zealand, really brave people attacking those nasty evil gravestones :rolleyes:

I would doubt that a government would go down the route that the NZ one has unless it had pretty solid proof that the 2 guys did work for Mossad. Its going to be interesting to see how this pans out. Any of you pro Isreali chaps going to boycott lamb now then ?

Hobbes

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I assume you're also boycotting any Palestinian products that you might see, as a protest against the actions Palestinian terrorists?

Fruits and flowers only. But their shipments are routinely held in port by Israel to the point where they are not worth selling anymore.

But we are getting off topic.

ChipZilla

Originally posted by gandalf
I would doubt that a government would go down the route that the NZ one has unless it had pretty solid proof that the 2 guys did work for Mossad. Its going to be interesting to see how this pans out. Any of you pro Isreali chaps going to boycott lamb now then ?

These two were tried for trying to obtain a passport by deception, not for being members of Mossad. Who knows, maybe they weren't members of Mossad - but the Israeli government hasn't denied it, and sloppiness does appear to be the trademark of Mossad....

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=mossad+agent+arrested

Hobbes

Originally posted by ChipZilla
These two were tried for trying to obtain a passport by deception, not for being members of Mossad. Who knows, maybe they weren't members of Mossad - but the Israeli government hasn't denied it, and sloppiness does appear to be the trademark of Mossad....

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=mossad+agent+arrested

They have both pleaded guilty to the charges and it was found that they have links to Mossad. A fact that the lawyers are trying to use to get them off the charge.

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
Personally, I don't know what to think yet....I must go find more about this when I have a chance later today...

JC,
Does this count as posting a news article with no opinion attached to it to start a thread?

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
JC,
Does this count as posting a news article with no opinion attached to it to start a thread?

I don't moderate my own posts. You'd have to ask one of the other moderators. I

jc

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Hobbes
They have both pleaded guilty to the charges and it was found that they have links to Mossad. A fact that the lawyers are trying to use to get them off the charge.

I know what they pleaded guilty to. I did RTFA.

It was proven that they definitely have links to Mossad? I don't see that in any of the links posted above. All the TVNZ article says is:

Meanwhile, lawyers acting for the two Israelis are considering appeals, despite both men pleading guilty.

They claim their clients were denied a fair trial because the government leaked information about their connections with the spy agency, Mossad.

That second sentence there isn't proof of anything...

They thought their trial wasn't fair but they pleaded guilty anyway?

Third_Echelon

i read this the other day...

its about time that someone took a 'stand' against israel... they have been getting away with way too much for way too long...

they were found guilty and should be punished accordingly...

Sinner_Rez

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I would only agree with it if the NZ government also suspends diplomatic relations with the Palestinian leadership, who continue to support Palestinian terrorism.

Ditto with any boycotting - both sides or neither.

Its fairly simple really. We here in Ireland had the IRA who are basically the same sort of movement that the Hamas and all those other groups are. Yet at the same time we still have some resentment towards the English. Sure some are more vitriolic in their venting than others but it amounts to the same thing.

Isreal is in direct controvention of some 17 UN directives. They are refusing to move the wall they just built even thought they have been condemned for it by almost every nation, the UN and their own Courts and International Courts. Even America, Isreals biggest supporter, balked when they started to build it.

The Palistinians are treated as third class citizens in their own land. They are refused permits to go to work, they can be arrested and held without trial for decades. They are turning to the only means oppressed nations have ever turned to, violence and the gun.

The Palistinians are surely reckless in their use of bombs and what not, but the Isreali Government have been firing missiles into apartment buildings, throwing tanks headlong into battle mode.

Isreali settlers are taking, much like the planters did in this country, the best land for themselves, building oppulant houses on pieces of land where the Palistinians have been growing olives and dates for centuries. Are you telling me that when the planters where coming here you wouldn't have dropped a morter on the lovely houses (given that that hadn't been invented then you probably wouldn't have, but just pretend mmkay.). Meanwhile the palistinians live in shanty towns and refugee camps on their own land.

Lets look at Isreal closely though. Their economy is way up poo creek. People are leaving, especially young people, at the rate of nearly a million in the last year. University students are transfering out of Isreal so they won't have to serve in the Army when they qualify.

You really have to look at this with history in mind. (History really does repeat itself.) We have to remember that the state of Isreal is only something like 50 years old. Palistine is how old? Isreal are technically an invading country, but because the American's and the English transplated them there they are protected. The UN castigates them, but no sanctions are ever brought against them. Its laughable.

You say that you want there to be sanctions on Palistine. But what about the fact that the medical facilities are so crap that people are dying in huts cause the Isrealis won't let medicine through.

flogen

If there is enough evidence that they were spies, the NZ is right, no country would stand for something like this.

I would also support an EU embargo on Israel for their constant flouting of international law. It sickens me to see them constantly hide behind the US, the UN cannot even put forward a softly worded complaint against Israeli actions, or show opposition to their actions because the US would veto it. And what harm would that do to Israel? None, its not a physical attack or an embargo. 14 out of 15 UN judges voted that the Israeli wall was illegal and should be taken down, guess where the 1 judge who disagreed was from.... AMERICA!!!

flogen

bonkey

Originally posted by flogen
14 out of 15 UN judges voted that the Israeli wall was illegal and should be taken down, guess where the 1 judge who disagreed was from.... AMERICA!!!

As a matter of interest, where were the other 14 from. They - generalising from nationality as you are - could have been just as biased as you're making the US judge to be.

jc

flogen

Originally posted by bonkey
As a matter of interest, where were the other 14 from. They - generalising from nationality as you are - could have been just as biased as you're making the US judge to be.

jc

very true, and I'll be honest in admitting that I dont know where the other 14 were from.
Saying that, I find it hard to see how it isn't illegal, sure Israel has a right to protect itself, but not by ignoring the basic human rights of innocent people.

I'll try and find out where the other judges were from.

flogen

Sinner_Rez

I don't think that you get to be a UN Judge if you are going to vote what ever way your government tells you. And besides its a moot point imho. The fact is that the Isrealis are going to continue to treat the Palistinians whatever way they want. The truth is that they are trying to strangle the life out of a people. And the sad fact of that is when you try to do that, then the oppressed revolt and it creates a situation where people aren't dying for their religion but for their land and patriotism and for their heritage.

The scariest part of all this is that Isreal are the most likely country to start a nuclear war. They have stockpiles and are also in the unenviable position of being surrounded by countries that hate them cause the Isrealis are taking the land of Palistians. You have Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and then the smaller nation states, but they all hate the Isrealis as much as the Palistinians do. And when they attack, which is now only a matter of time, what do you think the Isrealis are going to do? They are going to drop a big fat nuke on places like Tehran, Riyadh and Mecca and thats when you will see WMD coming out of the woodwork in countries like Iran. And its not going to be purdy either.

Orion

Originally posted by Sinner_Rez
I don't think that you get to be a UN Judge if you are going to vote what ever way your government tells you.

Do you really believe that?

Sinner_Rez

Of course I believe it. I wouldn't have said it otherwise. The guy could be jewish, or ultra conservative or whatever. The whole idea of the court is that they sit in judgement of governments and regimes. They have to be impartial. They aren't servents of any government they are chosen for their knowledge of international law and they are impartial. Its the way it works. And if they weren't impartial then the court wouldn't function.

Plus the fact that America had deep reservations about the wall and have told Isreal to obey the courst, as has EVERY government and the UN security council.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sinner_Rez
Plus the fact that America had deep reservations about the wall and have told Isreal to obey the courst, as has EVERY government and the UN security council.

Tthe UN Security council have not told the Israelis to obey the court, at least not in the only meaningful form they could do so which would be via a Security Council Resolution.

jc

arcadegame2004

Originally posted by Typedef
Personally I would like to see the EU impose a trade embargo on Israel, due to the fact that Israel, more then any other country *in the world* has flouted the United Nations, for decades.

Me too. However, Germany has always blocked measures of this kind, due to its continuing guilt-complex over the Nazi Holocaust. They are especially senstive to accusations of anti-semitism because of what the Nazis did in World War II. They need to realise that the real lesson to be learnt from the Holocaust with respect to relations with Israel is that the fact that genocide was committed against the Jews does NOT justify the Jewish state from committing genocide against the Palestinians with impunity.

Time Magazine

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
the fact that genocide was committed against the Jews does NOT justify the Jewish state from committing genocide against the Palestinians with impunity.

Agreed, but there hasn't been a genocide. And of the two I would place Palestine as the most likely to commit genocide.

And what's with all this UN-hugging crap? You speak about it as if it is some bastion of peace and love. "Oh yeah, there's a genocide in Rwanda...... ah well, let them at it...... we've better things to look at" I think many of the problems pointed out so far (and yes, there are many), should be pointed at America, not Israel. And speaking of genocide, look at it this way - who has stopped/intervened/attacked most of the genocides/people who commited genocide so far? America. Even look at Sudan today, but that's another thing altogether.

And speaking of this being "Anti-Semetic". It is not in the least bit anti-semetic. There is no such thing as "anti-semetism" because there is no such thing as Jews. They're all just a creation of the Jew-controlled media.