Welcome to USA the richest country in the world

bonkey

Originally posted by the_syco
Except the French don't really care about old people. Nearly 12,000 died last year, and it wasn't untill afterwards that the French did anything.

Not true.

The French health care system was imperfect in responding to a crisis that was unprecedented, admittedly, but the vast majority of the problem was caused by the attitude of the citizens themselves.

It was widely reported in this part of the world (maybe not in Ireland, but here on the mainland for sure) that the biggest contributor to the problem was that people don't look after the elderly etc. in their community/locale, but rather leave it to social services. If you're heading away for a week, there's no need to make sure granda is gonna be fine.....won't social services take care of him.

This attitude, coupled with the weather, coupled with the increase in numbers of people running from the sun, coupled with the unprecedented nature of the crisis, coupled with the overloading of the social services combined together to cause the problem.

To lay that significantly at the feet of the healthcare system isn't much different to blaming the healthcare system for the number of road-deaths or smoking-related deaths.

jc

shotamoose

Originally posted by the_syco
The ratio may seem low, if alot of the people could afford to buy healthcare, versus's those that couldn't.

The reliance on private health insurance is only really justifiable if everyone who wants it can afford it. In America 70 million people have no health insurance and the overwhelming majority say the reason is they can't afford it (source )

TomF

The quoted figures come from a posting by "Captain Trips", cited below. I can't underwrite its accuracy.

<Captain Trips

Registered: Apr 2003

"Well the US seems like a thirld-world country at times:

1. Health Care: great if you are in the top 0.1% and can afford it, otherwise you'll pay between $300-500 a month for VHI equivalent care for a family. ">

If you get to the A&E (in Dublin, Ireland), aren't you meant to pay a small fee, for the ambulance, or something?

You'll get a bill from the Hospital about a week or two later by post, for roughly 50 euro. You'll also get charged separately for Emergency care (another 50 euro or so). Not sure if Bupa/VHI cover this. I just paid to get the bill out of my vision.

chill

Originally posted by Meh
You know, I hate to introduce some hard facts into this thread, but the US spends more per capita on healthcare than any other country in the OECD. Even their per-capita public healthcare spending is more than that of most European countries, including Ireland. Whatever's wrong with the US healthcare system (and it does seem to have a lot of problems), it isn't a shortage of money that's the problem. More statistics available here

Yes ... but the issue is not how much they spend... it is on whom and who gets the benefit. It is the well off that the money is spent on and who spend on themselves. It is the lower middle class, working class and poor who get screwed.

arcadegame2004

I think the introductory thread justifies what I have been saying on the need for compulsory private-health-insurance.

Victor

Originally posted by seamus
The very fact that hospitals negotiate cheaper fees with insurance companies

I don't have a problem with a discount equal to the reduced administration potential that is there for hospitals treating the insured - maybe 10%, but 80% is rediculous.

Originally posted by Meh
More statistics available here

Interesting that we have a lot more nurses per capita and as a nurse / doctor ratio, but we are screaming that we don't have enough nurses (of course the definition nurse varies, but given we have one of the more restrictive definitions, it seems odd).

chabsey

Originally posted by bonkey
It was widely reported in this part of the world (maybe not in Ireland, but here on the mainland for sure)...jc

Mainland? Please explain.

seamus

Originally posted by chabsey
Mainland? Please explain.

Mainland Europe. bonkey lives in Switzerland.

Gizzard

You'll get a bill from the Hospital about a week or two later by post, for roughly 50 euro. You'll also get charged separately for Emergency care (another 50 euro or so). Not sure if Bupa/VHI cover this. I just paid to get the bill out of my vision.

Im USA its 7000 dollars for a single ambulance not 50 euro, I lived there lots of money to be made but a horrible society that does not care for its people

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I think the introductory thread justifies what I have been saying on the need for compulsory private-health-insurance.

So what's the difference between 'compulsory private-health-insurance' and taxation?

In Germany, from memory from my time there as a gastarbeiter one's payslip came with an itemised bill showing where one's tax went. One could see how much krankensteuer (health tax) lohnsteuer (income tax) and kirchensteuer (church tax-it went to the church of whichever religion you claimed to belong to) one paid each month.

Compulsory private health insurance seems to me like a fig-leaf to cover up the deficiences of ultra-dogmatic Rabid Righties who cannot believe in public services and will not believe that their own philosophy has any shortcomings at all.

ionapaul

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
In Germany, from memory from my time there as a gastarbeiter one's payslip came with an itemised bill showing where one's tax went. One could see how much krankensteuer (health tax) lohnsteuer (income tax) and kirchensteuer (church tax-it went to the church of whichever religion you claimed to belong to) one paid each month.

Great idea! Except for the church tax - what do you do if you are an atheist?

ionapaul

Originally posted by Gizzard
Im USA its 7000 dollars for a single ambulance not 50 euro, I lived there lots of money to be made but a horrible society that does not care for its people

The US health system definitely needs changing (most Americans will agree with you on this) but to say that their society is 'horrible' and doesn't care for its people is going way too far. Of course it has its faults, as many as Irish society has, or any other society you could mention. I'd much rather be marginalised in Europe than in the US, but on the other hand would rather be marginalised in the US than most of the rest of the world - not too many people starve to death in the States, work in slave labour camps, or are disallowed from driving, voting, or owning property because of their religion or gender.

chabsey

Originally posted by seamus
Mainland Europe. bonkey lives in Switzerland.

That's ok....thought he was referring to Britain!

Mighty_Mouse

I lived in America for a little bit and found its consumerism, economic efficiency "bottom dollar" outlook overwhelming.

I'd much rather be marginalised in Europe than in the US, but on the other hand would rather be marginalised in the US than most of the rest of the world

I think that you've kinda hit the nail on the nead here. I suppose I would like to think a society should be partly judged on how it cares for its less-well off. Also I would think marginalisation is a matter of circumstances than choice in most cases.

I must admit I'm quite happy we don't have a privatised health care system from some of the horror stories I've heard from America.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by ionapaul
Great idea! Except for the church tax - what do you do if you are an atheist?

I think, but I couldn't swear to it, that it got swallowed up by general taxation. ie, if you registered as belonging to one of the major organised religions, a small part of your tax was diverted to them, but if you didn't the gov just took it anyway.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by shotamoose
Indeed, it seems to be more of a problem of wasting vast amounts of money. There's an interesting graph here comparing the amount of health spending per capita and the ratio of public to private spending. As the website author says, "Basically it shows that the United States has (a) much less public involvement in healthcare than the other countries and (b) much higher healthcare costs."

Based on this fairly crude comparison, the US system seems to deliver not much bang for a lot of bucks, especially when you consider that so many people are without health insurance and get into the kinds of problems described by Batbat. I'd suggest moving to a more socialised health system, but that's probably because I'm just another freedom-hating anti-American.

On top of that, if you once again look at the OECD statistics cited above, you'll see that the US is below the OECD average in both practising doctors per 1,000 population (2.4) and practising nurses per 1,000 population (7.9) (Charts 7 and 8 respectively).

Whatever this says about per capita spending, apart from it revealing that medical costs are higher overall, it also indicates a low enough level of healthcare.

For comparison, Ireland's doctors to 1,000 population is also 2.4, but Ireland tops the Nurses list with 15.3 nurses per 1,000 people.

Edit: Uh, Just realised this thread is on its third page! Oh well. The risks of staying away from the internet.

Gizzard

I'd much rather be marginalised in Europe than in the US, but on the other hand would rather be marginalised in the US than most of the rest of the world - not too many people starve to death in the States

Yess well said, however remember 1 in 4 childern born in america are born into poverty, although americans definition of poverty is different to other parts of the world

chill

Originally posted by ionapaul
The US health system definitely needs changing (most Americans will agree with you on this) but to say that their society is 'horrible' and doesn't care for its people is going way too far. Of course it has its faults, as many as Irish society has, or any other society you could mention. I'd much rather be marginalised in Europe than in the US, but on the other hand would rather be marginalised in the US than most of the rest of the world - not too many people starve to death in the States, work in slave labour camps, or are disallowed from driving, voting, or owning property because of their religion or gender.

Wow... there's an enviable endorsement ......!

sceptre

Originally posted by chill
Wow... there's an enviable endorsement ......!

Let's start a pool on how many more posts are needed before someone points out that the US is better than Nazi Germany. Or does the above count?

DadaKopf

not too many people starve to death in the States

13.4% of Americans earn less than $11 a day. 17% earn 50% or less than median income.

ionapaul

Originally posted by sceptre
Let's start a pool on how many more posts are needed before someone points out that the US is better than Nazi Germany. Or does the above count?

I think we all know that most posters on boards think the US is the cause of all problems in the world, the worst place in the world, and a land made up solely of evil rich people in palaces and sprawling ghettos of 'wage-slaves'! Makes you wonder why so many people in every country I have ever lived or visited want desperately to move to the States - don't they know the truth like the rest of us

Captain Trips

I would think it's because relatively speaking the US used to be publicly displayed and flaunted pinnacle of freedom and rights. (Although not necessarily actually *having* those freedoms and rights e.g., McCarthyism, Federal Reserve, etc., - different topic).

BattleBoar

Originally posted by DadaKopf
13.4% of Americans earn less than $11 a day. 17% earn 50% or less than median income.

And the brilliant thing about it is, that 50% of the average US household income, adjusting for currency exchange rates and cost of living, works out to about 32120 EUR.

With the average household income in Ireland given by 15,953 EUR ( x2, I presume), that means that the lower 17th percentile of earners in the US has a spending power that is actually 0.7% greater than the Irish national average!! Not bad for the bottom 17th percentile, not bad at all.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html
http://www.oanda.com/products/bigmac/bigmac.shtml (dated, but the newest I could find)
http://www.xe.com

shotamoose

Originally posted by BattleBoar
And the brilliant thing about it is, that 50% of the average US household income, adjusting for currency exchange rates and cost of living, works out to about 32120 EUR.

You might have to explain how you got there, for us slow ones in the audience.

sceptre

Originally posted by ionapaul
I think we all know that most posters on boards think the US is the cause of all problems in the world, the worst place in the world, and a land made up solely of evil rich people in palaces and sprawling ghettos of 'wage-slaves'! Makes you wonder why so many people in every country I have ever lived or visited want desperately to move to the States - don't they know the truth like the rest of us

I'm sure there are some rabid anti-Americans posting here, though to be honest I can't identify one. I do know that there are some pretty fervent pro-Americans posting here (I'm not accusing you of this or the opposite by the way, but I could identify some of these). It's certainly true to say that based on the posts I have seen, far more people appear to have a problem with US foreign policy (without castigating them as the source of even a majority of the world's problems) then actually have a problem with the US itself. And Bush is the current devil though to be honest, he's hardly playing with a full deck[1] now is he? I'm not going to give the guy a break on foreign policy just because he's dumb as a bucket of donkey poop (though the question of whether the thick guy or smart guy is worse when their policies are the same does arise), especially when his economic policies leave something dramatic to be desired as well.

I could have said "good marketing and a past history of giving a crap about the tired, the poor, the weak and the suffering" but I don't think it'd be a good enough answer.

[1]Except for that most wanted deck. He's probably got a few packs of those

BattleBoar

Originally posted by shotamoose
You might have to explain how you got there, for us slow ones in the audience.

Sure. Multiply the ~15Eur number by two. Then to the US avg number divide by 2 to get the 50% figure then multiply by PPP adjustment value then run that number through the currency converter then take a ratio.

BTW - The point isn't that I'm trying to say that the US is better or anything like that, as in Ireland much is provided that you'd have to pay for in the US. Its more like I'm saying that you shouldn't just throw statistics out there without context because you can skew them a lot of ways depending on the metrics you choose, or don't choose, to use.

tba

Originally posted by BattleBoar
BTW - The point isn't that I'm trying to say that the US is better or anything like that, as in Ireland much is provided that you'd have to pay for in the US. Its more like I'm saying that you shouldn't just throw statistics out there without context because you can skew them a lot of ways depending on the metrics you choose, or don't choose, to use.

exactly, and dosent Switzerland have the highest GNP in the world? almost 60% more than the USA, maybe Im wromg

ionapaul

Originally posted by tba
exactly, and dosent Switzerland have the highest GNP in the world? almost 60% more than the USA, maybe Im wromg

The US has the highest GNP in the world - by a long way, as the world's largest economy.
http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GDP.pdf
I think you are referring to GNP/GDP per capita, here is a table from the World Bank referring to the 2003 figures.
http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GNIPC.pdf
Switzerland is higher than the US, by 7% or so. Ireland is number 14 here! I think there are newer tables out somewhere - heard that Norway is now number 1. Must be nice to have all the oil - you can afford bigger whaling ships!

Nick_oliveri

Y'all probably kno of this but it compares the cost of war to education, health care etc.. Apologies if this was posted already.
Costofwar
Truly disturbing, this is money spent killing innocent people. To be the superpower of the world. Go Here and check out "African Americans for Bush"

Im surprised that 68% of African Americans are now investing in the stockmarkets.

Love em cuz they spend money. Maybe we'll allow them to vote this year.
This is interesting.

"The Pentagon is setting up a stock-market style system in which investors would bet on terror attacks, assassinations and other events in the Middle East. Defense officials hope to gain intelligence and useful predictions while investors who guessed right would win profits...."