50-50's and freerolls...

Lafortezza

I've played a few freerolls in the last couple of weeks, after avoiding them for quite a while. The constant rebuy craziness really bugged me but I decided to have another go recently.

The rebuy madness no longer bugs me. What really pisses me off these days is the standard of poker. Alot of new players see the "Classic Hold'Em Situation" of a pair vs. 2 overcards as a good situation to be in. They think "All I have to do is get a little bit lucky here and I win loads of chips!"
Every now and then you're happy enough to take a 52%-48% shot if you're a small stack or you're already pot committed or something. But I've seen players stick all their chips in the pot and ask "Have you a pair?" before turning up their AJo with a nod and a smile, happy to know they have a coin toss chance to win the pot.

Playing in the €100 game last night in the fitz I was at a table with a few of the cash game players. There's was plenty of banter and guessing what each other had, and stuff like "I put you on Ace, good kicker, couldn't call you with this..."
They would consistantly fold small and medium pairs (up to 8's) when faced with a big preflop raise. They knew the raiser had either a bigger pocket pair or 2 overcards, and they did not want to try to win by taking a 50-50 (ish) chance.

One thing that really impressed me was the post-flop play. Usually in the freerolls and similar games, someone will bet big or go all-in on the flop. Several times in the €100 game last night it was checked to the river, and the winning hand was something as strong as top 2 pair, or trips.

The hand I went out on at the 2nd last table I was under the gun with AQ of spades. I flat called, there was 2 or 3 more callers until the BB raised 2500, on 300-600 blinds. I had about 3500 left and thought for a bit then went all-in.
Everyone else folded and the BB called and show JJ. He hit a J on the flop and I was off home.
He said that if I had banged all my chips in without hesitation after he raised he could easily have folded the JJ. He could have put me on a bigger pair that I was trapping with (some people respect my play!) or else AKs or similar, hands that he would be reluctant to go all-in with because you're trusting to get lucky instead of playing with skill.

You wouldn't find that in the freerolls...

Kelter

While I completely agree with your point of view that a 50-50 is not good enough odds, I think you might be over estimating the play at the 100 game. All to often I have tried to trap someone and got caught letting someone hit a straight. Or on the otherhand not making money off people who would have been stayed in for a small bet on the turn.

What I mean is that when someone bets/not bets, it is often applauded when it works out, and laughed at when it does not.

Please don't be such a person just because there is more money involved.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Kelter
While I completely agree with your point of view that a 50-50 is not good enough odds, I think you might be over estimating the play at the 100 game.

I'm not saying that the general standard of play in the €100 game is terrifyingly high, of course there's no weak players but at my table there was at least 3 players who regularly play for and win thousands of euro in cash games. They know what they're doing at a poker table and listening to them talk about putting down a pair of jacks to someone going all in for fear of being behind or, at best, have a 50-50 chance of winning.
Can you imagine anyone ever folding a pair of jacks to an all-in in the freeroll? (not pre-freezeout obviously)

dirkey_wynne

Originally posted by Kelter

What I mean is that when someone bets/not bets, it is often applauded when it works out, and laughed at when it does not.

Please don't be such a person just because there is more money involved.

I agree with this sentiment. It's like the penalty thing in football - if a taker rolls it gently into the corner, with the keeper going the wrong way, it's seen as a fantastic penalty. However, should the keeper choose the correct way, the taker is slated for an appaling penalty.

Also in a non team game I don't think people should give out about bad play. If playing badly, a player may catch you out once in a while. However in the long run, they will lose money. If they wish to throw away their money I don't think we should give out to/about them.

Marq

Point is: when you're playing for money there is absolutely no incentive to play 50-50 shots unless you absolutely have to, particularly early on in a tournament. In the free-roll though, you might as well. Lots of people are amassing chips simply from the no of times they rebuy, there's very little skill for the first ninety minutes so you try to take your chances and wind up at the freeze-out with a decent sized stack. I think people play that way because in the free-roll post-flop play is so poor, almost non-existant for more than 50% of hands because people are so liable to stick it all in if they've raised before the flop anyway.

It's a total crapshoot before the freeze, so you might as well look at it as such, and hope to get lucky with those "classic hold'em situations". After a fortnight's hiatus I think I might play this thursday, and while I intend to get a ticket, I also intend to spend the first hour drunkenly pushing it in with anything whatsoever.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Marq
I also intend to spend the first hour drunkenly pushing it in with anything whatsoever.

Going slightly off topic for a sec, a few players in the hundred game last night got a severe bollicking last night for disappearing to the pub at the break for a swift pint or two. Reason was that there's a regular fitz player who plays pissed quite often. Not good for the club for that to be encouraged or for drunk players to be seen winning.

There was also a huge amount of slagging of one particular cash game player's personal hygiene and eating habits.

Marq

who gave them the bollicking? management or the other players?

Lafortezza

Management. Some Fitz regulars do not like other regulars, staff included. I thought it was one big happy family.

cormie

It hurt. I was chip leader for sometime until I got QQ, raised to 700 with blinds about 1-2, Frank (who got ticket on Sunday) re-raised to 1,500, I called, flop came an ace and he bet 1K. I stupidly folded. The more I think of it, the more peed off I get. It just shows how much I have to learn. He threw over KK and if I just thought about it for another few seconds I may have re-raised to play the A. A few hands later, I get Q's again. I raise to 700 again, Frank re-raised to 1,500. Flop comes an Ace. This time I feel he's trying to trap me. Which would be wayyy to obvious play after what happened the last hand. But I fell for it. Turn was an Ace also. I didnt think at all and just check after he did too. We both checked till the river. He turns over K's I show my Q's for the laugh. This just goes to show how much I have to learn. Then I got 8's and there was a pfr to 700 by frank, 1 caller before me, I called. Flop AQ5, raised to 1k by frank, gal next goes AI, I fold. AQ V 555. River comes an 8. It just pees you off sometimes. Not saying I should have called but ya know. I went a bit crazy on one hand which dwindled my stack big time. Can't say for tactics reasons but ya know. All we can do is learn. We all have allot to learn.

Kelter

Rarely in my time have I read a post that made less sense

Samson

Originally posted by lafortezza
Going slightly off topic for a sec, a few players in the hundred game last night got a severe bollicking last night for disappearing to the pub at the break for a swift pint or two. Reason was that there's a regular fitz player who plays pissed quite often. Not good for the club for that to be encouraged or for drunk players to be seen winning.

There was also a huge amount of slagging of one particular cash game player's personal hygiene and eating habits.

Come on Luke, name names.

whiteshadow

But I've seen players stick all their chips in the pot and ask "Have you a pair?" before turning up their AJo with a nod and a smile, happy to know they have a coin toss chance to win the pot.

Guilty!

i made two terrible plays based on this on sunday nights 20-in game
both times they knocked my legs from under me... no more!!!

careca

that game!

Cormie,

I reckon you played those hands alright. On all three hands you had v good cards but were still the worst of it and managed to keep some chips. Alright on the second hand you could have thrown in a bet but if he came over the top you would have mucked

Can't say for tactics reasons but ya know

You should be able to tell us and still change your tactics for the next time

****, still can't get the hang of that quote thing and I only have worked in IT for the last 10 year!!!

cormie

Nope, I definitely should have bet the 1st hand. With such a power hand pre flop if he did have an ace, he could have had AK or AA, if he had either I'm sure he would have tried a trap instead knowing his hand would probably be best if he had an Ace. Especially from the position I was in, raising to 700, being re-raised and just calling. Far more likely play of AQ etc. I should have used that, I didn't I lost. I could have won.

It'll all come with experience.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by Samson
Come on Luke, name names.

not over the internet, you never know who's watching... :ninja: