Tension rises between US and Philippines

Gizzard

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/07/22/story158208.html

American foreign policy about to alienate more allies.

beer enigma

I dont see this so as so much 'American foreign policy' as the gross selfishness & stupidity of the Phillipines Government.

To accede to any terrorsist demand in this way can only put numerous lives at risk right across the Middle East & send out a clear signal that if you want change, try the kidnap & murder routine.

Kone

"Ricciardone told Filipino reporters at his Manila residence late yesterday that he wasn’t being recalled, but did not rule out consequences as a result of the Philippines’ withdrawal."

Fúckwits!

BattleBoar

I agree with Andip on this one.

The US and its allies say the Philippines’ decision to withdraw its 51-member contingent in Iraq a month ahead of schedule, as demanded by insurgents who had threatened to behead a captive Filipino truck driver, would encourage more terrorism and endanger other members of the US-led coalition.

No one can really deny this point. The capitulation will almost certainly make this tactic far more likely to be used. Additionally, I wonder if the Al Queda elements in the Philippines might not try this tactic there now that it's been proven effective.

Gizzard

Originally posted by Andip
I dont see this so as so much 'American foreign policy' as the gross selfishness & stupidity of the Phillipines Government.

To accede to any terrorsist demand in this way can only put numerous lives at risk right across the Middle East & send out a clear signal that if you want change, try the kidnap & murder routine.

terrorests?, hands up who bombed civilian cities in Iraq, oh that would be the international terrorist Bush, theyre country is occupied by foreign powers, Phillipines made the smart move not collaborating with monster bush

Lemming

Originally posted by BattleBoar

No one can really deny this point. The capitulation will almost certainly make this tactic far more likely to be used. Additionally, I wonder if the Al Queda elements in the Philippines might not try this tactic there now that it's been proven effective.

bear in mind that the Philippines were due to withdraw anyway. All that happened is that it was pushed forward by a month.

beer enigma

terrorests?, hands up who bombed civilian cities in Iraq, oh that would be the international terrorist Bush

Couldn't agree more Gizzard, but still think the Phillipino Govt. have set a very dangerous precedent....

BattleBoar

Originally posted by Gizzard
terrorests?, hands up who bombed civilian cities in Iraq, oh that would be the international terrorist Bush, theyre country is occupied by foreign powers, Phillipines made the smart move not collaborating with monster bush

Do 'freedom fighters' cut off the heads of philippino truck drivers? I don't have a problem with the Philippines not cooperating with Bush. I don't have a problem if they want to get their troops out. I DO have a problem with pulling the troops out in direct response to a terrorist demand because it means all the other civilians in Iraq (who weren't fighting anybody, mind you, but rather helping to rebuild the country) will be in much more danger.

Fudger

tell that to the guy who was about to have his head chopped off Andip !

Americans are the biggest bullies and obviously guilty of occupation of countries by force. That is terrorism.

Now they also want a go at Iran AGAIN they had Saddam do it for them the last time. (handy set up there). If they are so into 'liberation' why are they not in Sudan ?

The Phillipines are right and hopefully more will follow suit. Its an american war for the american dollar..........

Gizzard

Do 'freedom fighters' cut off the heads of philippino truck drivers? I don't have a problem with the Philippines not cooperating with Bush. I don't have a problem if they want to get their troops out. I DO have a problem with pulling the troops out in direct response to a terrorist demand because it means all the other civilians in Iraq (who weren't fighting anybody, mind you, but rather helping to rebuild the country) will be in much more danger.

Yes to be honest I dont like this beheading business at all, its barbaric, they should express their frustration in other ways, the problem is even if they attack the us army, the soldies dont have a clue why theyre there and are largely innocent. its all just a big mess, and the world in a much more dangerious place, and I blame Bush

beer enigma

My point is that the Phillipino reaction has far wider consequences than just the American incursions. I'm in no way supporting the American aggression in Iraq, let alone any threat to Iran.

I AM against all forms of terrorism (American included) and feel that the precedence now set will have recriminations in all wars globally, whether its the Israeli/Palestine troubles, the Indonesian civil troubles brewing or the ETA position in Spain, this is a dangerous landmark

gaelic cowboy

There chickening out simple as that basically they are caving in to terrorists which means the Phillipines own homegrown AQ clones must be jumping for joy right now.
I really think if you joined up for Iraq then you should see it out after as they were part of the coalition who caused this terrorism it behoves them to stay and sort it out not run like spain did.

Lemming

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
There chickening out simple as that basically they are caving in to terrorists which means the Phillipines own homegrown AQ clones must be jumping for joy right now.
I really think if you joined up for Iraq then you should see it out after as they were part of the coalition who caused this terrorism it behoves them to stay and sort it out not run like spain did.

The Philippines were due to pull out ANYWAY gaelic cowboy. They were to withdraw within a month. They moved that forward by a month to save the life of one of their citizens.

What would that extra month have accomplished given that they were to be withdrawn anyway and would have spent much of that month getting logistics ready to depart.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by gaelic cowboy
There chickening out simple as that basically they are caving in to terrorists which means the Phillipines own homegrown AQ clones must be jumping for joy right now.
I really think if you joined up for Iraq then you should see it out after as they were part of the coalition who caused this terrorism it behoves them to stay and sort it out not run like spain did.

No doubt Spain's actions made the world much more dangerous for citizens of the countries that have troops in Iraq, yes, but at least Spain *could* argue that the new government was going to pull troops out of Iraq anyway. There's no way Aroyo can sidestep this one. It's just incredibly shortsighted, and as you said, the Al Queda elements back in the Philippines must be ecstatic - "now we finally have a way to get the government to back down to demands; start cutting civilian's heads off until they listen"

BattleBoar

Originally posted by Lemming
The Philippines were due to pull out ANYWAY gaelic cowboy. They were to withdraw within a month. They moved that forward by a month to save the life of one of their citizens.

What would that extra month have accomplished given that they were to be withdrawn anyway and would have spent much of that month getting logistics ready to depart.

Yes they were due to pull out anyway, but they accellerated that hugely in *direct* response to the terrorist actions. If they had started the accelleration process prior to the guy getting kidnapped, there would be no problem and they could say that they were in the process anyway, but their plans didnt call for full withdrawl for another month and a bit. The problem is that they directly changed their plans due to what the terrorists told them to do, and in so doing, made themselves and all other citizens who work for a company of government rebuilding Iraq bigger targets.

Basically, I agree with the decision to leave Bush's ill-advised mess, it's the manner and circumstances of their departure I have a problem with. In the end, this is going to cost a lot of innocent people their heads.

Fudger

i don't think countries just decided either to join the war or not it was more of a case join or america won't trade with you in the future. especially the smaller countries. Look at us, making some nice money when those planes land in shannon and use our air space. i can't see bertie telling bush to feck off.

not to flog a dead donkey but that little phrase 'weapons of mass destruction" where they at ? The only way they might of had chemicals etc would have been because the americans sold it to them in the first place.

The war in Iraq is illegal.

The americans are out to take over the entire middle east. Saudi are in the bag and Israel and now they have Iraq, Afgan and about to go for Iran AGAIN. What about those poor f*ckers in Sudan there is worse than chopped heads(not that that isn't crazy and sick) going on there. When it comes to chopping stuff off, that is the way these countries operate. Hands, limbs heads etc are chopped of. The americans drop a bomb from 2 miles up in the sky its the same thing. Kids and adults in Iraq are loosing their hands limbs heads from bombing by the americans. You can't justify the war in iraq and to try to is just being stupid.

Its a mess the whole bloody thing.

ionapaul

Originally posted by Fudger
The war in Iraq is illegal.

...What about those poor f*ckers in Sudan there is worse than chopped heads(not that that isn't crazy and sick) going on there.

Considering they invaded a sovereign nation, I'm not surprised it was illegal! No matter what the UN could have said, it still would have been illegal. I think the only thing that matters is the morality of the action, whether it was a right or wrong thing to do. The law can be a real ass at the best of times in any case!

Qn: What the f*ck are we (Ireland) or our allies in EU doing about stopping the situation in Sudan? Did we (Ireland) do anything about stopping the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo?

BlitzKrieg

Qn: What the f*ck are we (Ireland) or our allies in EU doing about stopping the situation in Sudan? Did we (Ireland) do anything about stopping the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo?

No but we were one of the first (if not the first) to stand up for east timor...

Fudger

I agree about Sudan etc as in what did and aren't we (ireland) & the EU doing about it.

This is where it gets a little two fold though. There is a direct responsibility on the super powers (america) to ensure stability in the world and to protect the world from destroying itself environmentally and econonically because they have the muscle to do it. Which has me whinning that america should be doing something. Its just that americas view (well bush's) is very hazed by the green of the american dollar, but the EU should be seen to be doing something agreed. There does have to be respect for america for certain past conflicts etc but they did do very well econonically from the resultant outcomes. America doesn't seem, correction doesn't have a definable foreign policy.

Quote from some hick american about Iraq & Saddam "kick his ass & grap the gas".

Obviously there is no OIL in Sudan just millions of people being murdered. There are obviously two different types of liberation in americas eyes. Ok yes liberate iraq as Bush pitched it (for the wrong reason) but they must also liberate any other country that is suffering. Its blatent lying. Its either the whole hog or nothing not nit picking oil rich countries.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Lemming
The Philippines were due to pull out ANYWAY gaelic cowboy. They were to withdraw within a month. They moved that forward by a month to save the life of one of their citizens.

Unfortunately, such an action to save the life of one of their citizens will encourage in further hostage taking and execution. That’s the problem with appeasement of blackmail.

Let’s face it, these terrorists/freedom fighters/insurgents/whatever aren’t dumb; they’re not taking hostages simply because it give them a hard on (although this may be a consideration), they’re doing because it gets results. Let me put it this way:

“Terrorism. n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.”

If it doesn’t get results, then it stops being a viable tactic. So, one Philipino may have been saved at the cost of a few more other innocents in the future. Good one.

Fudger

these terrorists/freedom fighters/insurgents/whatever

i gather you are refering to the americans

this is all the americans fault not the Philippines making.

If it doesn’t get results, then it stops being a viable tactic.

Bush could learn from that theory..................:D

ionapaul

Originally posted by BlitzKrieg
No but we were one of the first (if not the first) to stand up for east timor...

The US has 'stood up' for Sudan in condemning the violence and inequality there, too. Should they intervene militarily? Don't think they can (army is stretched as it is) or have the will to do so. Ireland's not going to do f*ck all either. And if there was serious money to be made dealing with their government, we'd be ok with that too - that is the way (sadly) of the world. We sold enough beef to the dictators of the world when it was profitable to do so.

Gizzard

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Unfortunately, such an action to save the life of one of their citizens will encourage in further hostage taking and execution. That’s the problem with appeasement of blackmail.

Let’s face it, these terrorists/freedom fighters/insurgents/whatever aren’t dumb; they’re not taking hostages simply because it give them a hard on (although this may be a consideration), they’re doing because it gets results. Let me put it this way:

“Terrorism. n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.”

If it doesn’t get results, then it stops being a viable tactic. So, one Philipino may have been saved at the cost of a few more other innocents in the future. Good one.

anyone working there in league with usa being handed contracts by them is no way an innocent, usa administration are terrists on a global scale, so its terrorists vs terrorists, with so called innocent cetting caught in between

Fudger

Should they intervene militarily? Don't think they can (army is stretched as it is) or have the will to do so.

Yes they should. I disagree about the army numbers being stretched though. If they go that route why are they starting to have a go at Iran then? They are def going to go in there, thats a certain. If they can do that, then they should be in Sudan.

BUMP!

Should they intervene militarily? Don't think they can (army is stretched as it is) or have the will to do so.

Should America intervene? Not to my mind anyway. They've proved they cant handle this kind of operation and tbh most of the world distrusts them now and so would seek alterior motives. I kind of though that this was the kind of situation the UN should be dealing with (and I know the American military is part of that). The problem with the UN is that by the time the UN's buraucracy (spelling?????) is done there'll be no-one left alive (and so no problem anymore??).

People should be asking the UN why aren't they intervening forcefully and swiftly and ensuring this kind of situation doesn't happen again.

Fudger

it should be a goodwill gesture from america after giving the UN and the world the two fingers over iraq.

If sudan hit oil tomorrow you can bet your ass the americans would be in there like a shot "we will smoke them out"

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Fudger
this is all the americans fault not the Philippines making. D

Such utter crap. The Philippines sent troops to Iraq, so they can hardly be counted as innocent bystanders. Nonetheless, regardless of whether you are or were in favour or against the war, such obvious appeasement is a highly irresponsible policy.

Bush could learn from that theory..................:D

Indeed he could, but that’s not what we’re discussing.

Originally posted by Gizzard
anyone working there in league with usa being handed contracts by them is no way an innocent, usa administration are terrists on a global scale, so its terrorists vs terrorists, with so called innocent cetting caught in between

Oddly, this is the reasoning used by Al-Qaeda. Of course, it can be (and is) stretched further to argue that any civilian involved in the commerce of a belligerent nation is a valid target as the taxes generated will in part turn to military use - hence the justification for the 9/11 and Madrid bombings. They’re so-called innocent too.

I’m amused to see you agree with basic terrorist philosophy.

Fudger

Such utter crap. The Philippines sent troops to Iraq, so they can hardly be counted as innocent bystanders. Nonetheless, regardless of whether you are or were in favour or against the war, such obvious appeasement is a highly irresponsible policy.

If you read it proparly you will see i haven't said they are innocent. My point is that they where not the instigators of this war. Its americans baby and they can't start dropping it now. True with regards to the Philippines if you lie with dogs you get up with fleas, but the Philippines used as a scape goat now for protecting its own is cheap coming from america with regards to this illegal war. How may iraq's have the Philippines army killed ? what is their role in this war ? Honestly I have no idea and would appreciate if someone could clarify !

cleareyed

this is all the americans fault not the Philippines making

The Philippine govt. have their own problems with muslim terrorists. They have, by their actions in withdrawing from Iraq, shown them the way to win.
I find it difficult to see why the US is to blame for everything. Islamic fundamentalism is completely undemocratic and opposed to basic Western beliefs about equality. If the US denies Iraqis the right to elect their own government then they are no better than Sadamm and Al qeda etc. But until then I support them.

ChipZilla

Originally posted by Andip
Couldn't agree more Gizzard, but still think the Phillipino Govt. have set a very dangerous precedent....

Did Spain not set a dangerous precedent by 'bowing to terrrorists' first :dunno: ?

Fudger

So would you say that the americans are "terrorists/freedom fighters/insurgents/whatever" ? Sounds like the americans are running the country as a dictator. You support the americans in their actions and policy in this war cleareyed or just certain bits of it ?