Ninjitsu

Bri

Hey,

Ive read all the stickys and so on but Im having a slight problem regarding ninjitsu info: theres none on the web! I dont want to buy a book I just want to see more about it - Im abroad at the mo so cant visit any clubs.

Anyone like to explain what the training is like, especially starting off.
Is there sparring? How are the techniques practised 'in the air' or in slow motion or in an attacker-defender real-time style? Is it too hardcore for the latter option?
Do many Irish clubs teach the extreme elements like fighting in the dark and advanced weaponary?

The UCD club website is barely a website at all...



Thanks in advance.:ninja:

Colm_OReilly

Columok has trained with the UCD Ninjitsu club, I'm sure he'll give you an honest review of them.

For the lighter side of being a ninja, check out www.realultimatepower.net

Peace and Love Y'All

Colm

Bri

Thanks!

columok

in an attacker-defender real-time style?

If by real time you mean with resistance from a training partner then no. If you want that try Boxing,Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo etc.

Is it too hardcore for the latter option?

Please explain!

Do many Irish clubs teach the extreme elements like fighting in the dark and advanced weaponary?

Fighting in the dark? If you cant go head to head with a resisting opponent in the light the last thing you need is to turn the lights off!

Advanced weaponry. Youll learn to do stuff that looks cool, but nothing that will let you fight an armed attacker. To test get a mate to attack you with a magic marker and see how marked you are. he shouldnt hold back or telegraph but should be trying to stab you!

The UCD club website is barely a website at all...

think its just a yahoo user group!!


If you want more info PM me or ask more specific questions!

GuanYin

Ninjitsu was originally an overall representation of 11 areas of expertise that range from basic meditation, to weapons mastery. Included were such arts as concealment, stategy, stealth, chemistry, marksmanship and orienteering.

Today, the diluted Ninjitsu that is taught in most european schools is little more than Taijutsu, a japanese martial art geared towards close quaters combat and basic mastery of several weapons.

Most of the cleverness of what made ninjitsu so legendary has been lost so you will rarely find anything here that will represent the cartoon image you see on TV.

Bri

Syke: Thanks for the info. - thats what I thought it might be like.

columok:
Re: Too harcore - like if the moves are too dangerous to practise at speed, face-to-face?

Re: Fighting in the dark - Keeps coming up in literature online; just using it as an example of how much unusual fighting elements involved in Ninjitsu.

Re: Advanced Weaponary - what do you mean? Are you saying your just taught to show off, spinning the weapons but never actually learning how to attack with them?

Re: UCD online - yeah theres only the user group and the official UCD sport link, neither explain much - even the clubs details, costs and levels, etc.
(Im a UCD student)

Thanks for the help.
:ninja:

GuanYin

Originally posted by Bri
Re: Fighting in the dark - Keeps coming up in literature online; just using it as an example of how much unusual fighting elements involved in Ninjitsu.

I never learned anything specifically about fighting in the dark and never once was blindfolded against an opponent.

These are myths.

What I did learn would have been strategy and surveillence techniques that can be applied at night, such positioning your opponent between you and the light source and learning to use shadow and light to measure the positions of distance of people and objects out of your line of vision (which I still instintively do today).

As for Advanced weaponry, firstly, the original idea was to become proficient in as many weapons as possible. Original ninjitsu never taught any fancy weapons tricks nor did they have the elegant cermonial weapons you see today. Weapons were just tools of the trade with no special significance and the idea was to be able to turn anything into a weapon.

Although that last basic premise has seen itself come into many martial arts and self defence courses, the showboating seen in many classes is as unrelated to the reality of Ninjitsu as walking on water is.

Because thee is no reason to teach students how to fight each other and to do so may very well be illegal, if not at least have serious legal implications, I imagine that the display weapons training is the norm, in Ireland at least.

columok

Re: Too harcore - like if the moves are too dangerous to practise at speed, face-to-face?

No such thing in my experience. Usually if you hear this run a mile. With training equipment available today e.g. head/eye protection. You should be able to spar most "lethal" techniques. If you cant spar it then you wont be able to use it in a fight! Hardcore is the stuff you can use on a non resisting attacker!!

Re: Fighting in the dark - Keeps coming up in literature online; just using it as an example of how much unusual fighting elements involved in Ninjitsu.

As before you need to know how to fight before you introduce the dark. Also why would you need to know this kinda stuff? Id rather know how to speak French, paint, sail a boat etc. Surely its just being able to play ninja with your mates!!

Re: Advanced Weaponary - what do you mean? Are you saying your just taught to show off, spinning the weapons but never actually learning how to attack with them?

Yep. No reason why you couldnt spar with weapons. Kendo is an example of how to adapt weapons training safely to involve sparring! Anything else is just spinning. Great for scaring someone but got forbid they try and hit you with their swords. Then you need the kind of timing you only get from sparring!

Im in UCD too. Would you consider giving UCD Brazilian Jiu Jitsu a try? Id also recommend UCD: Boxing, Wrestling , Judo. If you wanna learn how to fight, that is.

GuanYin

Originally posted by columok
Great for scaring someone but got forbid they try and hit you with their swords. Then you need the kind of timing you only get from sparring!

Which might be, perhaps, why most people train with a bokken?

Seion

I have some experience with ninjutsu, or budo taijutsu as we also call it, so I can probably give some indications of the kind of things taught/practiced.

I don't know anything about the UCD club, or even who the teacher is, but I would encourage the original poster to look at several martial arts before deciding on one to practice, and even then, to look at several clubs that practice that art. Martial arts clubs are usually reflections of the person who runs them. In the Bujinkan, there is a tongue-in-cheek saying 'students get the teacher they deserve, and vice versa'. Caveat Emptor.

It's also worth noticing that quality control can vary a fair bit in the Bujinkan system - some teachers are absolutely excellent, and have a really good grasp of what the system is all about, and others aren't and don't. The head teacher of the style allows teachers a lot of leeway in how they run their dojo, but a fair indication of things is how often the teacher travels to Japan to train. (In other words, are they a student first, and a teacher second sort of thing.)

As to what 'ninjutsu' is, it's worth pointing out that the vast majority of people, including many people teaching it, don't really understand how the system fits together.

In the Bujinkan Dojo, we practice a martial art sometimes called ninjutsu or ninpo taijutsu, but officially called budo taijutsu. This art is an amalgamation of nine koryu, or pre-1870's martial arts ryuha or schools. Each of these nine schools has a broad base of fighting skills, but also has a particular thing it was known for. For example, the Takagi Yoshin Ryu is an old school of jujutsu, but it developed at a time in Japanese history when the country was mostly peaceful, so it presumes the person is not wearing yoroi (armour). It was also used at one point as a school of bodyguarding, and as a result, the kata, or fixed two man techniques that make up the cannon of the school reflect that. It has face-to-face techniques, but it also has kata in which the person performing the technique is intervening between two other parties, so he is approaching the attacker from behind and subduing him. This school is purely a jujutsu school and doesn't have any weapon arts attached to it, or at least it doesn't today.

However, the Kukishin Ryu, is what is called a sogo bujutsu, or complete system and it comes from a time when the kuki family actively engaged in battlefield combat. It contains two unarmed fighting systems that use the same kata - one presumes you and the other guy are wearing armour, and then as time moved on these kata were slightly changed to presume that armour isn't being worn. The system also contains sword fighting, staff fighting, halbard fighting and every other skill a soldier would have required in 1600's Japan. It even contains a body of knowledge designed to be used by commanding officers such as how to structure supply lines, use mounted troops and even design castles in a strategically sound way. Obviously, today things like this are more interesting from a historical perspective, but this might offer an insight into the breadth of knowledge contained in these old schools.

The Bujinkan is mostly known as a school of ninjutsu today, probably because the skills outlined above are found in other old schools in Japan, whereas ninjutsu as a self contained skill is much more unusual, and the vast majority of schools practicing it died out due to lack of interest and frankly, lack of need for their services. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu today in truth contains little physical ninjutsu in its practices, and is best seen as a sophisticated form of armed skills and jujutsu. The system does contain this information, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s just not that important, and most of it is of little use as anything other than a historical curiosity due to the passing of time and the advent of technology. (At a time when there was no electricity, sneaking around in the dark for example was a very practical thing to teach espionage agents – it’s less so today. Ditto herbal remedies required by agents living in the field – there are apparently recipes for pain killers and the like in the scrolls for these schools, but when asked about it, Hatsumi Sensei replied it would be better to go to the chemist down the road. That way, you probably won’t poison yourself.)

If you are really interested in this kind of stuff today, then a career in the military would probably be a good idea.

Seion

Which might be, perhaps, why most people train with a bokken?

Yes. We actually use a type of padded sword called a fukoro shinai - like a kendo shinai except the whole thing is encased in soft leather. This allows us to hit full force and speed at each other - it stings but you don't get hurt.

columok

Which might be, perhaps, why most people train with a bokken?

Full contact bokken training? Are you mad Syke? Who are these "most people"? I have studied Aiki-ken and Kashima Shin Ryu Iaido and I have never seen full contact bokken training. Maybe drills with full co-operation. To do full contact sword work you need to use a shinai! An oak bokken would split skulls!

If you are really interested in this kind of stuff today, then a career in the military would probably be a good idea.

Damn right. Otherwise you are just make believing being a soldier.

This allows us to hit full force and speed at each other - it stings but you don't get hurt.

Good idea, but do you guys not need armor (more specifically eye protection)?

Seion

Good idea, but do you guys not need armor (more specifically eye protection)?

In the past, we've used motorcycle helmets, but unfortunately full armour is horrendously expensive and kendo armour is pretty expensive as well. This isn't the main focus of our activities so it's not such a huge issue. Sword fighting tends to be over quite quickly, two to three moves at most. The main targets tend to be the hands and the backs of the knees and the head (as I'm sure you know if you have practiced Kashima Shin Ryu - did you do that in Ireland? I wasn't aware there was anyone qualified to instruct here?) We tend to get away by being careful although padding up the hands helps a fair bit. Most of us have to use our hands to work for a living and broken fingers don't help

columok

Mr John Rogers 5th Dan Aikikai (www.aikido.ie) would be a good man to talk to re Kashima Shin Ryu. It was taught to us to complement our Aiki-ken sword work. Also other instructors have been brought over for seminars for us. John teaches it in courses most weekends- not sure about the availability of pure Kashima Shin Ryu though!

Hope that helps.

Kendo armor is mega expensive, as you say, so good to hear the inventiveness!!:)

Hands are kinda useful in day to day life!;)

GuanYin

Originally posted by columok
Full contact bokken training? Are you mad Syke? Who are these "most people"? I have studied Aiki-ken and Kashima Shin Ryu Iaido and I have never seen full contact bokken training. Maybe drills with full co-operation. To do full contact sword work you need to use a shinai! An oak bokken would split skulls!

Strangely, I trained with a bokken (and full body armour) when I was a teen. I never took part in full contact sparring with one mind you, but I only once was injured in weapons training and that was, with a kosh.

If I recall correctly, initially the sheath the bokken in foam, but remove that once your handling is up to scratch, to allow you develop speed.

I'm quite adept with most sharp and blunt instruments these days, but then again I trained under eastern tutalidge in the 80's so I dont know what they do here.

columok

Strangely, I trained with a bokken (and full body armour) when I was a teen. I never took part in full contact sparring with one mind you, but I only once was injured in weapons training and that was, with a kosh.

Are there not serious injuries or is the body armour comprehensive.

I'm quite adept with most sharp and blunt instruments these days, but then again I trained under eastern tutalidge in the 80's so I dont know what they do here.

Would you be adept at not being hit i.e. would you be able to spar with full resistance similarily to Kendo with Sai, Tonfat etc and not get hit. Or would you be mainly focused on offence?

In my mind, correct me if Im wrong, with weapons work, not getting hit is more important in training than hitting,hitting,hitting.

GuanYin

Originally posted by columok
Are there not serious injuries or is the body armour comprehensive.



Would you be adept at not being hit i.e. would you be able to spar with full resistance similarily to Kendo with Sai, Tonfat etc and not get hit. Or would you be mainly focused on offence?

In my mind, correct me if Im wrong, with weapons work, not getting hit is more important in training than hitting,hitting,hitting.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I've never had much cause outside of a training hall to use a weapon, nor would I be inclined to.

The style of fighting I learned (which was probably basd more on traditional ninjitsu with a mik of traditional Korean weapon arts - Han Kuk Mu Ki Do) focused on the quick and easy win. Parry and block techniques and countering would have been a heavy part of it. But to be perfectly honest, its a bit of a given saying that "not getting hit" is important, in any fighting technique...... (unless, it seems, you are in WWF).

The armour was strong enough to take the brunt of a blow, but light enough to allow full movement. A blow would sting though and concusions were not unknown.

Bri

Thank you for all the feedback. The fighting in the dark etc. was really me just sussing out how far this art goes in todays world. Ive no particular desire to learn it for daily life and even less desire to join the army!

Anyway the whole thing still intrigues me...so can you suggest clubs around the south dublin area?

Again; the feedback is much appreciated!

P.S. Any idea about tutition costs? esp. in UCD

columok

The distinct lack of any ninjas stepping forth and offering classes might signal the "availability" of classes. I know the ninjas train tuesday nights in UCD. Classes are pretty cheap.

Im in UCD too, so if you come around to the various stands during the sports Expo you can get all the details from the ninjas or other MA clubs. I'll be at the BJJ stand during the Expo. Id seriously recommend that you do BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing or Judo but really its up to yourself. My understanding of the UCD club is that it teaches what seems to be Taijutsu and doesnt seem to be particularily traditional or weapons orientated.

Best of luck with it if thats what you want to do. PM me or post again if you have any further questions. I tend to be less diplomatic/more honest in my PMs.

blondie83

Last year it was €10 a year to train with the UCD club. As far as I know it's pretty much the same price with all the clubs there

Bri

Ok cheers for all that. Im gonna do some thinking and may well be back to PM you closer to the time.

Thanks guys!

columok

No worries. Something may provoke a bit of thought.

An article I found to be excellent at examining motives for training in martial arts.

SBG: Motive Article

mcguiver

Ninjitsu,

I just came accross your thread,
Ninjitsu is indeed a mixture of all sorts of techniques.

The man to talk to would be Brian Mc Carthy, his dojo is on Parnell Street,
THE HOMBU DOJO (The humble Dojo). I trained with him for many years, he teaches many techniques and has some very "unusual" training sessions.
He mixes the training up quite a bit, most real fights start with a grab or a push... so thats the angle he comes from... when was the last time a brawl started with a a chop at eye level or a lovely kick to your upper body??

Very practical, very usefull. Like any GOOD teacher he will explain that all forms of self defense have their good points. If you come across a teacher that disrespects others/ their techniques stay clear. I found Brian attracted a lot of proffessionals to his sessions. I've had the pleassure of knowing lots of Irelands senior martial arts personaliities.... Brians one of the best.

Colm_OReilly

Hey McGuiver,

Where'd you train at?

Peace Out,
Colm

columok

McGuiver,

Not meaning to be picky but Hombu Dojo generally means headquarters or main dojo, rather than humble dojo.

most real fights start with a grab or a push

Dont know about that. Most "real" fights start with someone having decked you before you even realise that youre in a fight. Any fight involving squaring off or pushing can probably be gotten out of by just walking away.

Like any GOOD teacher he will explain that all forms of self defense have their good points.

Do they? Ive seen some pretty atrocious self defence before.

mcguiver

My apologies if my understanding of hombu is incorrect.

My experience of fights are that they start with a push or a grab... but thats only my experience... your right though...a lot of situations are blatant attacks, bottle, stool etc. from behind, I'm speaking more from the point of being employed to deal with situations, so walking away isn't an option in those circumstances.
That particular dojo teaches techniques that involve starting flat on your back etc. I've also see him set up bar scenes, knife attacks, baseball bats etc.

I've always been taught to respect all techniques. Depending on your body type, fitness, situation etc. some are more usefull than others. How some are taught is another thing altogether.... but it's not my place to comment on them.

columok

You hit it on the head there! Its not the technique- its how its taught and very importantly how its trained. If its not trained against resistance, motion and timing well... its not gonna be much good to you in the unforgiving real world. Especially at three in the morning in temple bar, when youve had to much to drink- the most likely time someones gonna start a "fight" with you.

My experience of fights is one guy running at me, I blocked his punch and clinched while his mate opened up my right eye. A fairly common fight situation.

mcguiver

I'd agreed with you there on everything, bad teaching, bad training, bad attitude....it all adds up.

Colm OReilly...

I trained with Brian for years, and still deal with a few of his instructors, so I get to do a little sparring now and then with them, just to prove how much I need to train more!

vasch_ro

I think if some one is spoiling for a fight they will try and escalate the situation normal by verbals or physical contact such as a shove.

Brian Mc Carthy no longer trains in Classicla Ninjitsu I think didn't he fall out with the Japanese guy ? I think he was one of the first guys to bring ninpo to Europe along with some swedish guy ?

and sorry colum I do not have National geographic.

Lets remember its not the aim of all martial arts to make u into a killing machine
aikido for example aims to foster self harmony etc etc if I'm not mistaken

and if all else fails you could always check out those old role playing books "The Way of the Tiger " they even have a list of moves at the front my own personal favourite being the teeth of the tiger !

mcguiver

Thats interesting what you said about Mc Carthy falling out with the Japanese..... He was the first European to be graded in Ninjitsu in Japan as far as I can recall.
His display a few years ago in UCD and the first Irish Kumitea (Pardon my bad spelling) was typical of his way of thinking.... a real shop stopper...tons of skills while still able to have a good laugh at himself. Unlike all the usual plank chopping, high kicking stuff we've grown bored of watching.

Your right about the whole tradition/thinking behind martial arts, it should be a way of living, defence/fighting is just one aspect of it.

columok

I think if some one is spoiling for a fight they will try and escalate the situation normal by verbals or physical contact such as a shove.

Obviously this is more your bag John but real self defence is about being aware, being healthy and being good at running. I realise in your situation its a bit different but I suppose thats were Greco would come in. SLAM!!

and sorry colum I do not have National geographic.

Youre a big tease posting that schedule...

Lets remember its not the aim of all martial arts to make u into a killing machine

Funny then that the traditional martial arts have a tendencey to make people think that they are invincible samurai/ninjas/monk/pirates. I havent seen any of that in the MMA world.

Also Aikido aims to foster harmony and yet I have seen very little harmony in it. In fact BJJ is what Aikido should be about. Fun, gentle, harmonius but actually in action rather than stagnating in pools of tradition. Confronting strength and moving around it, harmonising etc.

I dunno about martial arts as a way of living. I think life is a way of living and martial arts people get too hung up on this idea of being a martial artist. If you want to be a warrior join the army. Otherwise why if not for image??