Plot hole: First contact

Digi_Tilmitt

Ok you know the way the sphere in First Contact went back in time? Well why didn't the borg just use that in the delta quadrant or even in the alpha quadrant before the federation fleet got to them? I mean if they can time travel like that....

NeoSlicerZ

mmm wasn't there something that the further away from the target the more inaccurate your placing along the timeline would be?

Stark

There's some law that says if you do that you won't have much of a movie basically

My theory is that they planned on taking over the Federation in the 24th century when their technology was advanced. When they failed they used the time travel device as a last resort. After they tried this they realised there was a causality paradox and that they couldn't attempt to use it again to alter time.

What I think is weird (ie: plot hole) is the way Earth is always in exactly the same place when people travel back in time.

The Admiral

Long live the time paradox !

If the Borg succeeded in Borgifying the Earth back in the 21st century, then there would never have been a Jean-Luc Picard. If so, then Q could never have introduced the Enterprise-D to the Borg ("Q Who ?") and the Borg would never have known of the Federation's existence - in the 24th century. So they would never have been able to engage the Federation nor how to counter the UFP preventing First Contact. God I love causality loops.....

The Admiral

MrVestek

The enterprise was caught in the temporal wake and protected from changes in the timeline, remember?

billy the squid

maybe they only invented the time travel gadget in the 24th century.

The story with the borg has made a very confusing time travel story

borg travel back from 24th century to 21st century and are blown to bits by the enterprise E
22nd Century borg drones are discovered on earth in the north pole who steal a ship and try to head home.
They are defeated by the Enterprise NX-01 but not before they get a signal to the delta quadrant.
So the borg were probably on their way to earth when the Q introduced the federation to the borg. It stands to reason the borg would be interested in how one of their drones ended up on the other side of the galaxy.

jaggeh

send 2 cubes

Stark

Perhaps the Borg simply send lone cubes to keep civilisations on their toes technology wise. When the culture reaches required level of advancement the Borg then send in a storm and conquer them. This has been reported by members of assimilated species that Voyager encountered in the Delta Quadrant.

Perhaps the Borg meant the Enterprise E to help the 21st century guys gain Warp Drive. They would have known they were needed from the signal they got off the Borg in the 22nd century.

The Admiral

Achilles wrote:

The enterprise was caught in the temporal wake and protected from changes in the timeline, remember?

Yes, but if the Borg succeeded in preventing first contact, there would never have been a Federation, so there would in the future not have been an Enterprise E at all to get caught in that temporal wake That's my point.

Billy the squid wrote:

borg travel back from 24th century to 21st century and are blown to bits by the enterprise E
22nd Century borg drones are discovered on earth in the north pole who steal a ship and try to head home.
They are defeated by the Enterprise NX-01 but not before they get a signal to the delta quadrant.
So the borg were probably on their way to earth when the Q introduced the federation to the borg. It stands to reason the borg would be interested in how one of their drones ended up on the other side of the galaxy.

I must admit I've not seen this episode of Enterprise... But who says the Borg would have received that 22nd century signal at all. If I get this straight, then these 22nd century drones have sent 1 single signal. For a thousand reasons conceivable, it's very likely the Borg forward in the 24th century will never receive it. First, the signal has to travel a great number of years, maybe on the way it becomes distorted, or in the "worst" case, it's trajectory is being bend by gravitational forces and heads for the Beta Quadrant instead Who knows. But as said: I've not seen that episode - so I may be in the wrong.

The Admiral

seamus

The Admiral wrote:

Yes, but if the Borg succeeded in preventing first contact, there would never have been a Federation, so there would in the future not have been an Enterprise E at all to get caught in that temporal wake That's my point.

No, but that's the point of the temporal wake excuse. The timeline did change, but being caught in the temporal wake, in essence, meant that the Enterprise E was not in that timeline that was changed, and so were not affected by the changes. That is, in the new timeline, Jean-Luc Picard didn't exist, the one in the temporal wake was now another Jean-Luc Picard, who happened to be from the same timeline which just changed.

I must admit I've not seen this episode of Enterprise... But who says the Borg would have received that 22nd century signal at all. If I get this straight, then these 22nd century drones have sent 1 single signal. For a thousand reasons conceivable, it's very likely the Borg forward in the 24th century will never receive it. First, the signal has to travel a great number of years, maybe on the way it becomes distorted, or in the "worst" case, it's trajectory is being bend by gravitational forces and heads for the Beta Quadrant instead Who knows. But as said: I've not seen that episode - so I may be in the wrong.

In that episode, they did say the signal would reach the delta quadrant in 200 years. We discussed it before, and I put forward the theory that they Borg did receive that signal, and had sent a ship, hence why the cube was already so close to earth when Q introduced Picard to them - it was on its way there. It ties in really well with the whole "You have no idea what's out there" thing that Q was trying to prove, i.e. he knew that the cube was coming.

bizmark

I argee with seamus about the borg

User45701

Stark wrote:

Perhaps the Borg simply send lone cubes to keep civilisations on their toes technology wise. When the culture reaches required level of advancement the Borg then send in a storm and conquer them. This has been reported by members of assimilated species that Voyager encountered in the Delta Quadrant.
.

That makes allot of sence to me. AS good therey

Stabshauptmann

Digi_Tilmitt wrote:

Ok you know the way the sphere in First Contact went back in time? Well why didn't the borg just use that in the delta quadrant or even in the alpha quadrant before the federation fleet got to them? I mean if they can time travel like that....

We dont know how it works, how much energy is required, what technology, if the borg invented it or if they merely found it and cant replicate it, if they were using some sort of localised temperal distortion ... in short we dont have any basis for saying "shure why dont they just try again"

There is little to be gained from assimilating 21st century earth technology wise.

One theory might be that that was the last cube (maybe why it contained the queen) since janeway destroyed the collective in the last episode of voyager. The only way to undo this would be to stop janeway from traveling back in time. Maybe it would be best to stop the whole federation full stop. So maybe one ship survives, it somehow figures out how Janeways time travel device works and replicates it, better yet now that i think of it her ship and all its technology was captured wasnt it? Isnt that how she destroyed them, she let herself be captured and assimilated.

So the borg did have the time machine and all Janeways knowledge. They now know that even if they do stop Janeway they know they will never conquer the Federation and that it will one day be so technologically superior it will easily destroy them.

Only one thing for it then, stop the whole federation from ever existing. Thats why they chose first contact.

they sent only one ship because thats all they had, they sent no more because there are no more.

the two drones that survived may well have sent the message that leads to the sending of cubes to earth and thats what Q meant (etc rest of seamus' theory)

That would solve all the time line problems and wed all be happy. Although thats exactly the reason I dont buy it!

MrVestek

Erm right. good points and all but there's one major flaw there. the events of endgame happened after first contact.

*edit*

Ohh and erm, the borg wasn't destroyed in endgame, only one of their 4 transwarp hubs were destroyed, and part of the solar plexus (i think).

Stabshauptmann

Are you sure?
Voyage is nothing but ambiguous about star dates

MrVestek

well in Voy4x7 (i think) 'Message In A Bottle' when the doctor was brought back to the alpha quadrent and then got back to voyager, he explained about how the federation was at war with the dominion, and that was after first contact. So yes, i'm sure.

Stabshauptmann

Forgive my ignorance but in first contact worf is captining defiant, so the war aint over at any rate but how do you know it hasnt begun? The defiante only arrives around the time of the war. When Doctor comes back to delta quadrant, the war aint over. How do you know what stages in the war each one is at.

I would actually have presumed that the war is over in first contact, worf has finished his tour as embassador and now holds the rank of captain (the second defiant being an obvious choice for him) and would explain why there isnt any reference in DS9 to the defiant being destroyed a second time.

Question: is worf in nemises? If so Im going to use it to support my theory.

Might that not put endgame before first contact?


re:edit

I thought in endgame the entire collective has destroyed by some virus by Janeway (the elder). I really need to but all the DVD boxsets

MrVestek

Ohh god, ok. Yes they were at war with the dominion the same time as the doctor went to the alpha quadrent. In DS9 the same was going on at the same time cus they were both airing side by side (or at least in rotation). Also, it was only in nemesis that they even mentioned the dominion war, sugesting that it was over. In addition, Worf was only in nemesis to be at Troi and Riker's reception...

Stabshauptmann

Achilles wrote:

Ohh god, ok. Yes they were at war with the dominion the same time as the doctor went to the alpha quadrent

The sentence doesnt actually make much sense, they were at war with the dominion the same time as the doctor went to the alpha quadrent? Who? If you are saying VYG was at the same place in the timeline as DS9 you might have a case, but how do you know what stage of the war. Not that that matters, i willing to agree that endgame happens during the dominion war. my point is that First Contact happens after the war.


Or are you saying that First Contact is during the war. What is that based on?

In DS9 the same was going on at the same time cus they were both airing side by side (or at least in rotation). Also, it was only in nemesis that they even mentioned the dominion war, sugesting that it was over. In addition, Worf was only in nemesis to be at Troi and Riker's reception...

So your arguement is that if the war is over in DS9 then it is also over in VYG.

Well if it is over in VYG and over in FC then there is no way of telling which came where.

For you to be correct you must prove that the war is over in VYG (I dont know how you'll do that without using DS9) and not over in FC.

Why I dont agree with the arguement that DS9 and VYG are in the exact same place in time
The fact that two programs were on the telly or produced at the same time does not put them beside each other in the timeline. Yes there are a few cases where TNG and DS9 interact and meet, characters swap but that doesnt mean that VYG is on the same timeline. I think its safe to say we're not getting a day by day account, only the interesting stuff. Since they are scimpy with log enteries we dont know how much time has passed between episodes.

Why I think the war is over in FC
1)The federation can muster a fleet with help from klingon and romulans. This is also my reasoning for there still being a war during endgame ie the inability to muster a large fleet. The federation alone meets the transwarp conduit and its a very smal fleet at that.

2)Doesnt somebody say at the start of the movie that the Klingons cant send that much help because they lost so many ships during the war?

3)Thank you for answering my question about Worf in nemises, does it say where he is the rest of the time. I think its fair to presume that he either has his own command or is still on Kronos. In the absence of proof Im going to support my command theory. My command theory is based almost entirely on there being no reference in DS9 to the defiant being destroyed a second time.

*I would be disproved totally if there was some reference AT ALL in nemises to his still being an ambassador.


If there is some speech or scene that spells this out clearly that i dont know please tell it to me. Basically your last post just said "OMG, rolleyes, Im right and you're wrong". i made the effort of making a theory. Alot of it hinges on there being no explanation for the defiant being destroyed a second time in DS9 and on how the Federation was able to muster a fleet.


I think much of what i need is in nemises and luckily its on Sky movies this weekend. Ill record it. I think i have a recording of endgame which im going to lash on now and look for clues.

MrVestek

No dude, i'm saying that First Contact happened before the war with the dominion, or at least, during the brink of it. Insurrection was during, and nemesis was after. If i had a better memory i'd explain why that is but i can't remember much at this time. As is stated in trek lore, the defiant was originally created to fight against the borg, and was already brough into DS9 by the time of first contact. Also, when worf first joined DS9 a reference is made to Generations when either sisko (or someone else) gives his condolences on the destruction of the enterprise. So, before DS9 had the defiant, worf came on board, they mentioned tne enterprises destruction, almost exactly a few months after the films release. Meaning that they are somewhat in sync, if not completely. Presumably (although i can't support this because of said bad memory) he was assigned to DS9 whilst another Enterprise was being built. Then it was, but he wasn't reassigned back to his usual post, instead he stayed on DS9. The defiant gets built and sisko put in charge, but on more than one occasion we've seen Worf captain the defiant in his own right with none of the original crew on board in DS9. It stands to reason that starfleet were warned of a borg invasion, quickly built a prototype borg quick attack vessel and when the borg invasion came around, worf was ordered to earth to fight the fleet, whilst the enterprise was ordered to patrol the neutral zone. There are no klingons or romulans helping against the borg fight in First Contact, you're getting mixed up with the dominion war there. Also, the fleet is large in First contact, and it was the first time we saw the akira, which was since shown in DS9 eps after First Contact was released, so, going by your theory, of first contact being after the dominion war, how could we have seen an akira in DS9 during the dominion war even though the new class ship was premiered in First Contact, as the production team decided they needed a new class of ship to show off. The answer is, we couldn't, because first contact was the first time we saw an akira class ship, as stated on numerous websites, further proving my point that the timelines are in sync or almost in sync. Also nemesis happened after the events of endgame, and why do i know this? Because it was the first time we saw Janeway in a TNG movie. In addition, in her message to Captain Picard she mentions all the races Picard has had to battle in the two previous movies, including the one she's in now. 'Janeway: "The Borg, The Romulans, The Sona, you get all the easy ones" Picard: "Just lucky admiral". So, in conclusion, Riker mentions the dominion war in the past tense in nemesis, Janeway mentions Picard's fight with the borg in the past tense, previous to the dominion war. In addition

Data is killed in Nemesis, yet alive in First Contact, so how could he be alive after the dominion war when just when it ends, he gets killed in Nemesis?

*End Rant*

Is that a little more insightful? ;-)

*Edit, sorry for my lack of formatting in this post, i'm just too lazy to seperate it into parts, lol, sorry.*

Fenster

Trying to understand Star Trek's science is like like trying to understand women: All you'll get is a headache.

The Voyager episode where duterium (which is made from water) is portrayed as a rare mineral anyone?

seamus

Fenster wrote:

Trying to understand Star Trek's science is like like trying to understand women: All you'll get is a headache.

The Voyager episode where duterium (which is made from water) is portrayed as a rare mineral anyone?

Yes, but "made from". Any energy gained by deuterium creation would be lost by that very creation process. A bit like hydrogen fuel cells.

bizmark

Ya but all feddy ships collect deuterium from there buzzard (sp) collectors (the big red glow things on the warp nacelles) from space so really they should never run short on the stuff unless the collectors where off line which was never mentioned

seamus

bizmark wrote:

Ya but all feddy ships collect deuterium from there buzzard (sp) collectors (the big red glow things on the warp nacelles) from space so really they should never run short on the stuff unless the collectors where off line which was never mentioned

The collectors are designed to collect free dueterium floating in space as they fly along. Deuterium would be in very short supply just floating about in space, and certainly wouldn't be enough to provide non-stop propulsion for a ship.

bizmark

Fair enough learn something new every day

MrVestek

Ok necro, i take you you've seen the error of your ways. I can be intelligent when i want to be, hehe.

User45701

Necromancer wrote:

Why I think the war is over in FC
1)The federation can muster a fleet with help from klingon and romulans. This is also my reasoning for there still being a war during endgame ie the inability to muster a large fleet. The federation alone meets the transwarp conduit and its a very smal fleet at that..

??? IN first contaqct there was no klingon assistence at the battle, in fact the federation kept ships at the romulan border incase they try to take advantage of the situtation , no wait also the war is on in Insurection?

Emm the inabality to muster a huge fleet? i woul;d consider 29? ships in under 1 minuite to be good.

bizmark

In endgame you see only earth 1 system out of federation space of 8,000 light years and sitting in that 1 system where 29 ships with a few more yet to join the fleet so lets say earth has a defence fleet of 35-40 ships made up of the newest designs galaxys akiras prommys (no way i can spell that) etc this was peace time a defence fleet that big is pritty impressive ...Then you have the MASSIVE spacedock over earth + no douth many many orbital weapions ships in surronding space etc :eek: also earth is right at the center of feddy space so attacking it would be hard only the breen and (ugh) xzindi have managed it oh and vger + the whale thingy

Stabshauptmann

Well I got the order of the films release wrong for a start!
Yeah I see where my mistakes were, thanks for going to the bother of a long post to explain it. I definitly got mixed up between movies and episodes, but Im pretty pissed off I read that spoiler!!
I was going to watch nemises at the weekend, now the suspence is ruined, oh what a world,what a world...

User45701

emm u didnt see it in the cinima or rent the DVD? i would asume all star trek fans would have done that, some bold ones even download it. i dont like downloading movies tho there is no point DVDs are so cheep these days neway.

MrVestek

DVDs are cheap yeah? Heh, new ones aint, that's for sure, especially not the special editions (Yes i have nemesis on DVD, no i dont download star trek movies from the net) note i said star trek movies . Anyways i wasn't actually going to put that in as a spoiler, but then i thought ohh no wait perhaps people on the board STILL haven't seen it yet. Jaysus. So anyways, do you now agree that i was right? I told you i was, i just wasn't going to the bother of explaining it. So yes, the movies and episodes, when shown together or in sequence, are of or near the same timeline. Capiché?