Progressive Scan Question

LFCFan

I've been reading a lot about Progressive Scan on DVD Recorders and a lot of people talk about using the 3 component leads as opposed to Scart. Is there a problem with Progressive Scan when using a scart connection?

Elessar

I've read in some places that in order to use progressive scan you need to use component connections as opposed to scart.

It can be a bit confusing tbh, while researching what dvd player to buy I went in to Dixons and asked a manager what dvd players he has with progressive scan and he started to give me some sh*t about PS only being available with certain TVs and the PS I was talking about (de-interlacing) was not available with any DVD players.

Tbh, I'm still confused myself, progressive scan can only be enabled with DVD players with PS capability, right?

LFCFan

This is the one I've ordered:

http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/product_detail.jsp?product_id=8489&taxonomy_id=62-84

It has PS for both PAL and NTSC but I'm a bit confused as whether PS works through the scart. A lot of conflicting reports!

Elessar

Mine is also a Pioneer, a great make. Mine is actually one lower than yours - a 360.

But yes, I've read up some more, you do need component connections to get PS from a dvd player/recorder as it won't come through scart. That player has component, just make sure your TV has too.

Thumper Long

its mainly only projectors and and plasma / lcd's that have a component input........

fcukme

To be honest you need the big screen to really notice the difference with PS. There are a couple of top of the range CRT's that support PS (panasonic I know for sure, sony doesn't!)
Much more important is the quality of the dvd player and the pioneer will do a top job. Set it up with RGB scart.
Don't be fooled into buying a cheap player just cause it has PS, the picture will still not mach a good dvd player through scart.

MrPudding

PS will only work through the component output. Component is not the same as RGB. Also, I am not aware of any CRTs that support PS, fcukme may have better info. From what I thought I knew PS only worked with projectors, plasmas and LCDs. This was due to the way that these screens were able to display an image.

So in short. You cannot use PS over SCART. I think it does not work with normal TVs.

MrP

LFCFan

well, as long as the picture is clear and flicker free I'll be happy. My current player has a poxy picture.

bucks73

Panasonics PD30 32" and 36" models both have component in. Toshibas picture frame 32" and 36" models also have it.

All are top of the range CRTs.

aodh_rua

Originally posted by LFCFan
This is the one I've ordered:

http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/product_detail.jsp?product_id=8489&taxonomy_id=62-84

It has PS for both PAL and NTSC but I'm a bit confused as whether PS works through the scart. A lot of conflicting reports!

I was looking at that Pioneer one too. Look forward to hearing how it goes!

tea

Originally posted by bucks73
Panasonics PD30 32" and 36" models both have component in. Toshibas picture frame 32" and 36" models also have it.

They have component, but I think they're interlaced component only - not PS component.

Loewe's new Aconda range is said to support PS component, but through SCART only.

I have one of the previous generation Acondas, and it only has Scart sockets, but component works fine through them over the RGB pins.

Oddly enough, I think that what happened is that Component was never written into the SCART pinouts (as its basicaly a non-euro standard), so some manufacturers started using the pinouts used for RGB SCART (which is in the standard) for carrying component.

In terms of support, its only Loewe that support PS for now on CRTs AFAIK, so unless you have one, its not going to be an issue. Jusy use RGB or component (suck 'em and see to decide which - they're almost identical, some TVs just handle one better than the other.)

bucks73

The Pansonics are 50Hz progressive scan.
http://www.panasonic.co.uk/widescreen-tv/tx36pd30/index.htm

The Toshibas are progressive scan.

Specification for 36ZP48

Product design and specification subject to change or modification without notice

Screen

86cm Visible Screen Size
Widescreen format
Toshiba Face Flat
Invar Mask
Active Vision
Active Mode
Natural Mode
Progressive Scan
Advanced 100Hz
Colour detail enhancer
Digital noise reduction
Digital comb filter
Picture size adjustment
Super Scene Control
Super real transient


For progressive scan the signal is sent from the DVD player via Component Video Cable to the three Component Video In sockets at the rear of the sets.

As far as I know you can only get Prog Scan thru these sockets and not thru a scart.

A scart can be used for either RGB or Composite signals.

On your Loewe you are probably watching a composite or RGB picture. The new Loewe Acondas do indeed have a Component Video input.

fcukme

buck73 is spot on with the panny 36'' anyway cause I gat one. It has full PS but only through component. There is no way for PS through scart.
Really lads, its not worth the expense for PS with a mid level home cinema. You are talking about 120 euro's for a decent component cable and then that wont carry sound so you'll need a digital in on ur amp for surrond sound(or any type of sound for that matter)
Don't mind the guys in curry's, most of them don't have a clue. PS is just getting put on all dvd players ( seen a player in power city for €59 with it) when it's really only for the plasma screens.

Another small point, this was mentioned above but manufactures are wording things funny. PAL PS and NTSC PS are completely different. A lot of players can PS for NTSC but not PAL. Panny and pioneer are both guilty of this, they just stick PS on the box but it wont work with region 2 dvd's. The new pioneer range does support both however.

bucks73

Can you notice a difference in picture between RGB and PS when watching a DVD?

I was thinking of getting the 32" Panny but opted for the Sony 32FX68 instead as I thought it wouldnt be worth the extra dosh for PS at that size.

fcukme

As far as I know there's no component in on that tv. Sony are slow to support it on crt. Check the back of the tv, your looking for 3 phono connections, you should find the yellow, red and white ones (could be on the front of the tv). There used for the Playstation 2 etc. The component ones look the same but are green, blue and red.
If available, the choice to upgrade is basically about the amount you wanna spend.

The improvement from ordinary cheap scarts to a good scart is significant for the price (approx €30). I wont lie, there is a gain from PS but the cables alone will set you back €150, thats allowin €30 for a decent optical cable. Personally I think it's a bit pricy for the gains at 32''.

In case your wondering where the improvement is, i tell ya. Did you ever notice jagged edges on what should be a straight line on a dvd. Well PS will make that line straight, also you'll get deeper shades of black. A lot of this depends on your tv also.

In the end, if I was you I go with the pioneer dvd player (truely excellent) and a good scart. Use the RGB scart in on your tv! Normally only some of the scarts.

Do you mind me asking what dvd player you are using at the mo?

bucks73

I think you took me up wrong.

I bought the Sony knowing there wasnt a component input on it because I figured the jump in price to the 32" Panny was too much for what may have been a small improvement in picture.

I actually bought an Ixos Component Video cable thinking I was going ahead with the purchase of the Panny. In the end it was the Sony and I always use very good scarts with my stuff so picture is still very good.

I was just wondering if there is a considerable improvement in picture on your TV when comparing RGB and Component?

Also that 36" that you have is an absolute tank of a machine. I dont think I would have got it in to my TV room. The Sony barely got in and weighs a ton.

fcukme

Sorry, got a bit confused.
I know it's huge, but I had a 42'' plasma before it and didn't like the picture quality at all. I didn't want to drop to much in the screen size. I actually returned it under a 30 day return thing and got the panny. The plasma's are not worth the money. Normal tv like sky digital looks terrible. Loads of pixelation.
I got the component cables but if I was donig the setup again I wouldn't bother, cables are too expensive for the gains. They are the same price as a decant dvd player. RGB on a good tv and dvd player and the average joe wont tell the difference.
The only thing is HDTV requires the component in on tv's to work and there is some serious gains with that over sky digital. Sky have announced a launch date of 2006 for HDTV in the UK and I presume we wont be far behind.

robbie1876

I would have to agree with fcukme and tea - there doesn't appear to be PS support on that Sony TV, and the only TV I know of with PS is the Loewe Aconda range.

With progressive scan, it's not just a case of a TV manufacturer offering an extra input. The technology works by displaying all of the lines on your monitor in the same cycle. On a regular CRT, the odd lines are displayed on one cycle, and the even lines on the next. This 'interlaced' effect happens so quickly that the human eye can not pick up on it, and it looks like a solid image.

Plasmas, projectors, computer monitors and Loewe Acondas (new range) all work in PS by displaying all lines in the one cycle. This produces a very solid and crisp image compared to interlaced TVs.

fcukme, I'm not sure what cables you are thinking of for €120. You don't have to use that priced cables. Component connections are just 3RCA-3RCA and I often use cables valued at around €40 for this purpose with no noticable loss in quality. You are dead right in saying that an upgrade to a decent quality scart will produce a noticable difference over your basic black cheap scarts you get with cheap DVDs.

Robbie

bucks73

Two years so for another upgrade.

robbie1876

bucks73, there isn't a considerable difference between RGB and Component on most devices, but the difference does exist. As a rule, use component if you can. DVD disks are recorded in an interlaced component format, so using that output from the DVD player means the video format doesnt have to be changed by the player, reducing the risk of the picture being degraded.

fcukme, I'm a little out of touch on HDTV compatibilty in CRT TVs, which ones claim to be HCTV compatible? The only plasma I know of which claims to be able to process both HDTV formats is the Pioneer 434 or 504. Even still, they cant display the formats to their native resolution, and the resolution is scaled down to the resolution of the plasma.

I wasn't aware that such technology was in CRT TVs already, but am curious to find out more!

Robbie

fcukme

This is something I have been meaning to looking into a bit but can find very little. My TV, the panny 36'' (36PD30) has PS and I have got it to work.

The price of the cables is what I got from richersounds in the north (80 stg). Didn't know there is a cheaper versions, where would I get this chaeper one?

The HDTV thing, from panny's website decription of the 36PD30 it says HDTV compatable with modification. http://www.panasonic.co.uk/widescreen-tv/tx36pd30/index.htm
What mod I'm not sure, maybe you know more. I remember reading about a higher res than normal CRT's. This might determine HDTV compatability, again not sure.

fcukme

sorry wrong link about the mod need for HDTV and the higher res. This is a link to review of panasonic tv's, just select the model (36PD30) and you'll get a pdf review

fcukme

such a dumbass i am......
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/displayreview.php?reviewid=3216

tea

Originally posted by bucks73
The Pansonics are 50Hz progressive scan.
[snip]
The Toshibas are progressive scan.
[snip]
Specification for 36ZP48

They look lovely... how things have moved on since I bought may last TV - sorry for misleading.

As far as I know you can only get Prog Scan thru these sockets and not thru a scart.

A scart can be used for either RGB or Composite signals.

On your Loewe you are probably watching a composite or RGB picture. The new Loewe Acondas do indeed have a Component Video input.

Oddly enough, no. The most common way to do prog scan is using component, but its not the only way. As component is just YUV (3 streams), it uses the same number of pins as RGB, so its possible to run it over SCART using the same pinout is is used for RGB. Its fiddly, becuase you'll often have to set the TV up to accept component only on the RGB pins (they can't usually autodetect).

This is what Loewe do for Component. I think its part of their 'Beautiful European Art TV' ethos - they don't want multiple cables (3 x component + 2 x audio) uglying up the set.

And, yes, I'm definitely using component over scart on my TV...

fcukme said

manufactures are wording things funny. PAL PS and NTSC PS are completely different. A lot of players can PS for NTSC but not PAL. Panny and pioneer are both guilty of this, they just stick PS on the box but it wont work with region 2 dvd's. The new pioneer range does support both however.

That was a copy-protection issue, as far as I remember. There was no agreed copy-protection mechanism for PAL PS for a long time, so the manufacturers weren't allowed to support it. Its over a year since it was agreed though, so they all should now (even though they don't *sigh*)

bucks73, there isn't a considerable difference between RGB and Component on most devices, but the difference does exist. As a rule, use component if you can. DVD disks are recorded in an interlaced component format, so using that output from the DVD player means the video format doesnt have to be changed by the player, reducing the risk of the picture being degraded.

I wuoldn't completely agree. DVDs are recorded in non-interlaced component (usually), but your CRT displays RGB . At some point, the image has to go from component to RGB to be displayed.

Component PS has greater bandwidth than RGB, and is less ubject to crosstalk, so all other things being equal, the signal should be left as component as long as possible, and the conversion should be done inside the TV.

Thing is, a lot of TVs do a really poor job of converting YUV to RGB, particularly PAL TVs (because component is so uncommon here, few manufacturers care about it.) In particular, I have noticed terrible geometry problems with certains TVs if fed component images (although it is over 2 years since I've bought a TV - this may have changed)

Which all leads me to say suck 'em and see.

LFCFan

Originally posted by fcukme
Do you mind me asking what dvd player you are using at the mo?

It's a Mitsubishi Black Diamond. Black in the picture is really crap and there is bad synch between picture and sound. Has done the job but as I have a stand alone decoder/amp now, it would be nice to have a decent picture too.

bucks73

Originally posted by fcukme
This is something I have been meaning to looking into a bit but can find very little. My TV, the panny 36'' (36PD30) has PS and I have got it to work.

The price of the cables is what I got from richersounds in the north (80 stg). Didn't know there is a cheaper versions, where would I get this chaeper one?

The HDTV thing, from panny's website decription of the 36PD30 it says HDTV compatable with modification. http://www.panasonic.co.uk/widescreen-tv/tx36pd30/index.htm
What mod I'm not sure, maybe you know more. I remember reading about a higher res than normal CRT's. This might determine HDTV compatability, again not sure.

I got an Ixos Component Video cable from www.hificables.co.uk for GBP39.00. Everything you could need on that site and shipping rates are quite good.

ZENER

I wuoldn't completely agree. DVDs are recorded in non-interlaced component (usually), but your CRT displays RGB . At some point, the image has to go from component to RGB to be displayed.

The input to the encoders is component in order to reduce bandwidth and the source decides wheather the DVD is interlaced or not. A DVD of a program shot on video will be interlaced wheres a disc containg a movie originall y recorded on film MAY be progressive but there is no hard and fast rule governing this.

Component PS has greater bandwidth than RGB, and is less ubject to crosstalk, so all other things being equal, the signal should be left as component as long as possible, and the conversion should be done inside the TV.

Actually it's the opposite way around ! Video cameras are RGB output by default the RGB signal is CONVERTED to component (Y B-Y R-Y)using a matrix which eliminates the GREEN information which is later reconstructed in the TV set. The RGB has a greater bandwidth as it is the least processed signal.

Thing is, a lot of TVs do a really poor job of converting YUV to RGB, particularly PAL TVs (because component is so uncommon here, few manufacturers care about it.) In particular, I have noticed terrible geometry problems with certains TVs if fed component images (although it is over 2 years since I've bought a TV - this may have changed)

The PAL signal that the colour TV was created to process before RGB or COMPONENT consistes of the component signals combined into a composite signal comprising of Luminance (Y) which also provided cross compatibility with monochrome sets of the time and a Chrominance signal which comprised of R-Y and B-Y (U and V) signals, these U and V signals were added together in a matrix inside the TVs colour decoder and subtracted from the value of the luminance signal - the result was the GREEN component as it was originally subtracted. As you can see therefore the TV has been converting component to RGB to drive the CRT cathodes for donkeys years so I reckon they probably do as good if not a better job than anything else. Also the "geometry" of the picture is a product of the beam deflection circuits and not the picture information alone - RGB systems employ a sync on green signal I suppose connecting a component (sync on Y) to a RGB input could cause some deflection problems due to missing sync pulses but it's unlikely that the geometry of the picture would be affected.

Which all leads me to say suck 'em and see.

Mmm !

ZEN


*

Furp

Radionics sell compnent leads haven't used them yet but might give them a go as they seem reasonably priced €42.50 for 1.5m in lenght.

Radionics Component leads

I don't see why component leads are so expensive after all they are just 75ohm leads with phono style connectors surley you could even build a set cheaper by buying good quailty 75ohm cable and attaching good phono connectors, rather than spending over a €100 on premade cables.

LFCFan

Furp wrote:

I don't see why component leads are so expensive

Probably because only a handful of people actually need them right now so they will screw the few till the many can take over and the price will drop a bit.