Michael Moore vs Bill O'Reilly... seconds away!

jesus_thats_gre

matthiku wrote:

This is really worth reading in this context:
http://www.lessig.org/blog/archives/002046.shtml - Lawrence Lessig and Bill O'Reilley

I guess some of you may know the law scholar Lawrence Lessig. In his blog, he criticises the not very moderate moderator (presenter) of foxnews Bill O'Reilley. He had invited the son of one of the victims of the September 11th attacks but then attacked him and kicked him out of his show. The reason: because he had a different political opinion then himself. In the following months, the moderator begun to present the events more and more independent from reality. And that's what Lessig now documents and why he asks for an apology from O'Reilley.

The interview with the son of the 9/1 victem was shown on Outfoxed. Very interesting movie/doc.

Hairy Homer

Sand wrote:

The US army is volunteer based so this "Will you send your kid off?!?!? Huh?!?!?! Will Ya!?!?!?" is a pretty lousy argument.
Sure, Moores trying to show his opponents as hypocrites as theyre for war but not willing to go to war themselves - but they dont have to, theyve paid for a volunteer army to fight wars on their behalf.

That's a disgustingly smug argument which happily contains within it the seeds of its own downfall. It smacks of somebody who's read a few modern management text books and is convinced of the wisdom of sticking to one's own 'core competencies' while 'outsourcing' such menial unpleasant tasks as one is unwilling to do oneself (like fighting one's own wars) to specialist subcontractors.

The freedom with which many people join a 'volunteer' army is highly questionable. Most army volunteers are from the class of people who feel they have so few options that the prospect of a regular meal and some routine in their lives sounds tempting.

For me one of the best bits in 'Farenheit 9/11' is the scene in which a couple of lavishly uniformed marine recruiting sergeants cruise around a shopping centre, not, it must be said in a prosperous middle class neighbourhood but in a poor one populated by blacks and hispanics.

The hard sell would have been comic if it wasn't so tragic. 'Wanna be a musician? Hey, you know Shaggy was in the Marines once?' As if that correlation implies any possible causation. An earlier generation might have intimated that Jimi Hendrix would never have been a guitar player if he hadn't served in the US military, as he once did. (Well maybe it inspired his legendary pisstake of the Star Spangled Banner)

And even if you don't like Michael Moore, it's worth paying the admission price to that movie just to see the look on the Congressman's face when Moore asks him to get his son to sign up.

This has resonance in our own history. Many of our grandparents' or great grandparents' joined up in the British army too. Of my grandparent's families (all of them Irish catholic from rural areas) out of 11 males, 7 served in the British army at one time or another. Five died while in service, a sixth died shortly after the war from wounds received.

Why did they join up? Because they were dedicated imperialists? Because they had a deep affection for King George or Queen Victoria? Because they were keen to take up the 'white man's burden? Well I don't know, but I don't think so. Of my parent's generation only one man was a soldier. And that was as a part timer in the FCA. Furthermore, he was an officer, retiring as a commandant whereas all of the previous generation were privates or NCOs.

I once asked him about the Irish army joining NATO and his answer was most informative. 'We're not going back to being the Connaught Rangers.' In other words. Get your cannon fodder from elsewhere, Maggie/Tony.

Why does your argument contain the seeds of its own destruction? Because every empire eventually collapsed when it was no longer willing or able to fight for its own ends and delegated the dirty work to its subjects.

Shortly after the First World War, the chief of the Imperial General Staff was assassinated by two of his former troops, IRA Great War veterans. During the War of Independence/TRoubles call it what you will, a detachment of British soldiers were wiped out in Kilmichael by an IRA unit under the command of a former Bombardier from the Royal Artillery who had learned his trade in, of all places, Iraq. Doubtless he was fighting to 'liberate' Iraq from a local tyrant. Plus ca change etc etc

There are other examples of colonial soldiers turning their guns on their former masters, and not just on the British. If the yanks depend on their own despised underclass to fight rich men's wars for them, they WILL find that sooner or later those guns will be turned on them.

In fact, one could argue that Timothy McVeigh, a decorated US soldier, was the first in a trend.

Quis custodiet custodies?

Sand

The freedom with which many people join a 'volunteer' army is highly questionable. Most army volunteers are from the class of people who feel they have so few options that the prospect of a regular meal and some routine in their lives sounds tempting.

Almost never was. It *is* a volunteer force. Anyone who is part of the US armed forces wasnt press ganged. They had a choice, which you accept by claiming the option of joining the Army is tempting. They signed up to put their lives at risk in the interests of their nation, as determined by the political leadership, who were elected by the people.

There are benefits and consequences to their decision - one of the consequences is that when their leaders decide to go to war theyre the ones who agreed to go and fight.

So hence all Moores wailing about signing up Senators kids is stupid - the military recruiting age is usually 18 (?), round about the time a kid starts making decisions for themselves - often independant of their parents views and opinions. If they decided to sign up, then they decided to sign up. Not their parents. I think a young recruit might require a Parents *permisson* but a parent cant sign up his kid. So Moore is asking for a legal impossibility that only hightlights his stupid argument.

If Moore wants to criticise the concept of people being yanked of the street to die at the whim of their political masters then there are plenty of draftees in several European Armed forces who could die for the leaders mistakes, without having any veto on it.

If he wants to criticise people for not backing up their political beliefs then maybe hell want to donate all his wealth and property to some nearby african-american as compensation for the evil Moore as a stupid white man has visited on africans, along with his inherent racism.

And even if you don't like Michael Moore, it's worth paying the admission price to that movie just to see the look on the Congressman's face when Moore asks him to get his son to sign up.

Possibly because hes dumbstruck by the stupidity of the man.

Why did they join up? Because they were dedicated imperialists? Because they had a deep affection for King George or Queen Victoria? Because they were keen to take up the 'white man's burden? Well I don't know, but I don't think so.

Unfortunately soldiers do not fight for political causes, but because theyre paid to by the countries. Soldiers are expected to be politically apathetic - the US army doesnt mutiny because they voted Republican and theres a Democrat in the White House. Its part of the social contract where the armed forces accept theyre subservient to the will of the elected representitives - no matter if they believe it to be a bad decision.

Your ancestors joined up because it was a job. They fought because they agreed to. Simple as that.

Why does your argument contain the seeds of its own destruction? Because every empire eventually collapsed when it was no longer willing or able to fight for its own ends and delegated the dirty work to its subjects.

What are you talking about - thats speculation on the long reaching effects of volunteer forces fighting for reasons they dont necessarily belive in, not a counter to the US army being a volunteer force?

I mean, professional volunteer forces replaced the sort of feudal armies youre talking about where badly trained, poorly equipped, lowly motivated peasants were hauled from the fields to fight for their masters.

If youre not willing to risk your life on the whim of your nations political leaders - then dont sign up.

Problem solved.

Hairy Homer

Sand wrote:

If youre not willing to risk your life on the whim of your nations political leaders - then dont sign up.

Problem solved.

You know, I quite agree.

Do you think any of the flyers or brochures that the recruiting sergeants had in the movie featured just such a 'Government Health Warning'?

Of course they didn't and don't.

I suspect this may be one of the causes of disillusion.