YFG Proposals

villain_97

Just wondering what people think of Young Fine Gael's draft proposals to tackle alcohol abuse?I must point out that these proposals are not policy simply ideas being thrown around by YFG for debate.

In case you don't know what I'm on about I'll give a taste of the proposals:
*No closing times for pubs in law.Districts courts allowed permit late opening on case by case basis.
*Lowering of drinking age to 16 for a person drinking in the company of parents/guardian.
*Labelling of containers,so as to identify where alcohol was purchased.

I could go on but won't.I am opposed to the first two ideas that I have picked from the document.i think Liberalising this are would be a mistake.While I understand YFG's reasoning lowering the drinking age,I don't think it'll work.If everyone was middle class and had responsible parents maybe but think of all the unrespinsible parents.Or worse still,people pretending they are parents of a 16 year old.I think it would be wrong to think that 14 year olds are only 2 years away from the legal drinking age.I also think liberalising closing times is not the way forward.We have already done this making the problem worse.There is no reason to think going further down that road will not make the problem even greater.Some people have an addiction and would it be wise to increase the lenght of time such people can feed their addiction/disease?

The labelling idea is a great one which must be brought in I feel.While I object to the liberalising of alcohol laws,that is not to say I believe in prohibitionist policy.I think The current age limit is perfect.You turn 18 you have the freedom to drink.irish culture is geared towards drink.Changing laws won't change that fact.I feel resources should be diverted to education in order to improve the situation.If young people are told of the dangers of alcohol and other substances they will be able to make more informed decisions.If we show them how un-glamerous it is to be intoxicated we may change people's assumptions/attitueds.Showing a video of that primetime special on alcohol abuse in classrooms wouldn't be a bad idea.

The document from YFG also talks of the introduction of cafe bars etc as alternatives to pubs.I am all for this.It would be a real alternative meeting place before clubs or teen dicos.it would be a place to COMMUNICATE,something many people are unable to do nowadays and perhaps a place to meet members of the opposite sex without being pi55ed and unable to get to know their personality.The only problem is whether there is a market and in any case how can a Government suddenly set these esatablishments up?This is the tricky part but I'm sure incentives could be offered to businessmen who are willing.

As already stated I am against much of the proposals in this document but at least YFG are trying to create debate and discussion on an important issue.Hats off to them for being brave

sceptre

Originally posted by villain_97
*Lowering of drinking age to 16 for a person drinking in the company of parents/guardian.

Terrible idea. Partly for the reason you've stated and partly because I just think it's a terrible idea. We already have plenty of 18 year olds who don't have the maturity to control drinking (mind you we also have plenty of 21 year olds, 40 year olds and 80 year olds with the same problem)

AngelofFire

Drink causes problems for all age groups of the population.There are no valid arguments backed by facts and statistics that people in the 18-21 age group are less responsible with drink than say people in the 25-40 age group. The scapegoating of young people for the problem with alcohol abuse is unfair, and a more open minded solution is needed.

Bateman

>We have already done this making the problem worse.

More recently, though, we*have restricted opening hours, the Thursday night thing in particular gets on my tits. What has it achieved? Lowering the legal age, is, got to agree with abover poster, just a terrible idea. I don't understand what the labelling proposal is supposed to achieve, but it sounds unworkable anyway.


*We as in Mullah McDowell!

ionapaul

Our society seems to have a serious problem with alcohol consumption. Changing the laws regarding alcohol availability will not solve this problem. Society must change in my opinion.
The problem might be made worse if it turns out Irish people are genetically more susceptible to alcohol addiction/abuse.
In any case, there is no easy answer to our misuse of 'the demon drink'.

AngelofFire

i was strongly opposed to McDowell`s laws, it is just crypto facist nanny state rhetoric that put sanctions on the majority of people who go out to enjoy themselves and drink sensibly. I even posted a thread about it a couple of months ago. One of the alternatives i proposed was giving premises that promote activities than drinking easier access to licence eg Cafe Bars.

chewy

i don';t drink but i would like to go to pub club all night , in favour of removing times

grumpytrousers

Changing the laws regarding alcohol availability will not solve this problem. Society must change in my opinion

Part of the problem is that in a lot of small towns, there's f*** all else to do. Simple as. Since the advent of the multiplex, the nearest cinema to me is now 45 miles. The concept of a 'theatre' is limited to the offerings of local/nearby musical/drama societies. The nearest good bookshop is a fair distance away.

In other words, in a lot of places, people drink 'cos there's nothing on the telly. changing the licensing laws/hours won't make that much of a difference, not as long as standard closing time 'round these parts is 1.30 in the am and 3.30 closing isn't unheard of

i was strongly opposed to McDowell`s laws,

I tend to find meself lauging at McDs carry on. He sells himself as a libertarian, but one that ain't afraid to tell people what they should and shouldn't do. Lookit - either you believe people have the right to drink as late as they like and live with the consequences, or you believe they don't, and should be in bed at midnight

There's nothing wrong with believing in either, just as there's nothing wrong with saying either. There is, IMO, everything wrong with claiming half of one and half the other

daveirl

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oscarBravo

villain_97 wrote:

*No closing times for pubs in law.Districts courts allowed permit late opening on case by case basis.

I'm confused. If closing times are not mandated by law, how can a court allow late opening? Maybe I'm misreading the suggestion - to be fair, your phrasing is very confusing.

grumpytrousers

If McDowell is such a facist who wants pubs shut, why does he believe that closing times should be left to local authorities to decide?

My own (slightly jaundiced) take on what he wants is that nice middle class people who go to nice middle class pubs and perhaps only drink to excess on the evening of a rugby match, and take their holidays in the wine growing regions of France should be allowed to drink all they like, at any hour they like.

Uncivilised proles, however, are another story. You're all filthy scumbags who simply can't be trusted and thus, he's 'keeping all the class in after school'

The fact that the same 'uncivilised proles' wouldn't, in a million years, consider voting for him or his wretched party, is a bonus, as that means he hasn't technically lost the PeedleDees any votes....

daveirl

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chewy

daveirl wrote:

It's not so long ago that Fine Gael were suggesting raising the drinking age to 21!!!


to be fair the orginal posts was about young fine gael... the youth sections are very different to the party ones they dont have to toe the line as much...

but a good point i wonder if yfg backed those suggestions at the time?

villain_97

Young Fine Gael were opposed to John Deasy's suggestion that we raise the bar to 21,as was most of the senior party.I believe YFG basically came up with this document in order to create debate,it is not policy.It confuses me also Oscar bravo,I took it directly from the document that i came across.

The labelling idea would at least mean that premises who sold alcohol to under age people would be held accountable should the authorities find the can or bottle.This would act as a strong deterent to anyone who drink for an underage person,or sold drink directly to an underage person.

The solution I thinik is more straight forward than drafting large proposals such as this.As I have said before it is a sad reflection on our education system that after 5 years in secondary school our young people do not fully understand the dangers of alcohol abuse/misuse etc etc.there is a flaw in our education system if it does not prepare people for life in the real world.Somewhere in history we got sidetracked and thought Education was a means of creating robots to work to the benefit of economies

AngelofFire

daveirl wrote:

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The word "Liberal" is thrown around too lightly these days.McDowell and the PDs have given a perverse new meaning to the word.Allowing local authorities to decide closing times would mean that councils controlled by FGers will probably make all pubs and night clubs in their area shut at half 9 every night. Theres no Liberty in that.Goodbye Nightlife in Ireland.

villain_97

I think thats just a little unfair on FG there angel!The PDs are the most right wing party in this country-''inequality is good''.It would be a sad reflection on other parties if the PDS are most liberal.

AngelofFire

well they did call for the age to be increased to 21, but at least they admit that they are conservative.

I agree the PDs are probably the most right wing party we`ve had in government,they are avid supporters of right wing liberterianism(neo liberalism), but still inist on having a liberal social agenda despite the fact that Tim O`Malley is opposed to decriminalising cannabis and that McDowell is curbing liberties as minister for justice.

villain_97

FG are not conservative.Perhaps on some social issues but largely a centre party.I'll give u a pass cuz u support the villa also!!

daveirl

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chill

I have never been a Fine Gael voter. However that doesn't stop me saying that these people are almost 100% right. I also just spent almosta month in Spain with my children.

a) "There should be NO closing time for pubs in law"
Absolutely right. It is this governmental prescriptive obsession with Alcohol that produces the knock on obsession with Alcohol in the drinkers and in the young binge drinkers.
However instead of "District Courts should have a power to permit late-opening on a case-by-case basis" this should be turned around and District courts should only have the power to REDUCE the hours on a case - by- case basis in cases of excessive drunkenness that is caused by the publican or other similar reasons.

b) "The lowering of the drinking age to 16 for a person drinking in the company of their parents/guardians"
Firstly there should be NO age limit for being in a pub. it is the absence of childen that creates this boorish atrmosphere in many pubs that doesn't exist in Europe.
Also if parents alow their 15 or 14 year old have a small amount of wine or beer then that is THERE business.

c) "The labelling of containers, so as to identify from which off-licenses the alcohol was purchased"
Excellent. More information is always a good thing.

d) "Greater provision of recreational, social and sporting facilities for young people at a community level as ‘alternatives to drinking’"
Excellent. It is in the interest of our communities to spend money on community centres, sports venues and activity schemes. right now there is a chronic shortage of anything for teenagers to do !

e) "Stricter sentencing for persons other than parents or guardians found guilty of supplying alcohol to persons under the age of 18"
Wrong. This is part of the obsessive prescription attitude that creates binge drinking. Less obsession by authority about alcohol will produce less obsession by children.

f) "Stricter sentencing for persons found guilty of being drunk and causing a public nuisance"
THIS IS another BIG ONE in my opinon.. we need to create a complete intolerence for being drunk in public in parallel with a relaxed attitude to drinking. More police available to attend and strink stringent punishment.

g) "District Courts should sit on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights"
YES

h) "Persons admitted to Accident & Emergency wards suffering from illness or injuries resulting from excessive consumption of alcohol should be required to meet the expenses of any medical treatment received"
YES

ionapaul

chill wrote:

I have never been a Fine Gael voter. However that doesn't stop me saying that these people are almost 100% right. I also just spent almosta month in Spain with my children.

a) "There should be NO closing time for pubs in law"
Absolutely right. It is this governmental prescriptive obsession with Alcohol that produces the knock on obsession with Alcohol in the drinkers and in the young binge drinkers.
However instead of "District Courts should have a power to permit late-opening on a case-by-case basis" this should be turned around and District courts should only have the power to REDUCE the hours on a case - by- case basis in cases of excessive drunkenness that is caused by the publican or other similar reasons.

b) "The lowering of the drinking age to 16 for a person drinking in the company of their parents/guardians"
Firstly there should be NO age limit for being in a pub. it is the absence of childen that creates this boorish atrmosphere in many pubs that doesn't exist in Europe.
Also if parents alow their 15 or 14 year old have a small amount of wine or beer then that is THERE business.

c) "The labelling of containers, so as to identify from which off-licenses the alcohol was purchased"
Excellent. More information is always a good thing.

d) "Greater provision of recreational, social and sporting facilities for young people at a community level as ‘alternatives to drinking’"
Excellent. It is in the interest of our communities to spend money on community centres, sports venues and activity schemes. right now there is a chronic shortage of anything for teenagers to do !

e) "Stricter sentencing for persons other than parents or guardians found guilty of supplying alcohol to persons under the age of 18"
Wrong. This is part of the obsessive prescription attitude that creates binge drinking. Less obsession by authority about alcohol will produce less obsession by children.

f) "Stricter sentencing for persons found guilty of being drunk and causing a public nuisance"
THIS IS another BIG ONE in my opinon.. we need to create a complete intolerence for being drunk in public in parallel with a relaxed attitude to drinking. More police available to attend and strink stringent punishment.

g) "District Courts should sit on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights"
YES

h) "Persons admitted to Accident & Emergency wards suffering from illness or injuries resulting from excessive consumption of alcohol should be required to meet the expenses of any medical treatment received"
YES

I think you have it the wrong way around. The obsession by the Irish public with alcohol has led to the governmental interest in regulating the industry. Things weren't as bad in times past because we a) didn't have the money to waste on expensive drink b) didn't have a society of single people well into their 30s with no children, and so with much more spare time to waste drinking c) the church kept a lid on our national obsession with alcohol. When you were abroad you probably made the comparison between the amount of alcohol the typical Irish man/woman in their late teens/20s/30s drinks and people from other societies. We simply drink far too much. This is mainly a result of our national obsession with the 'demon drink', as well as a genetic propensity for alcoholism/addictive nature.

Until our drink culture changes letting 14 and 15 year olds drink wine and beer (they are anyway, in case you've been living in a cave recently) is not a good idea IMO. Many of my friends and co-workers cannot have a night out without drinking to excess - that is the heart of the problem.

villain_97

that would work if vevery parent in the country was responsible but unfortunately there are parents and people who would pretend to be parents who would end up messing the system up

AngelofFire

*Lowering of drinking age to 16 for a person drinking in the company of parents/guardian.

I find myself in agreement with that proposal. When i turned 16 me and few of my friends started to drink. I found that the people in my social group who drank the most where those with conservative parents who wouldn`t dream of letting a drop of alcohol pass their son or daughters lips until they turned 18.My parents let me have the odd glass of wine or lager when i turned 16 on special occasions or family gatherings, i found that getting absolutely wasted didnt appeal me when i was out in the field with my friends. I think that those with conservative parents tend to binge drink a lot more purely out of defiance, whereas to those who have been allowed the odd glass of lager here and there its less of a novelty.

ionapaul

AngelofFire wrote:

I find myself in agreement with that proposal. When i turned 16 me and few of my friends started to drink. I found that the people in my social group who drank the most where those with conservative parents who wouldn`t dream of letting a drop of alcohol pass their son or daughters lips until they turned 18.My parents let me have the odd glass of wine or lager when i turned 16 on special occasions or family gatherings, i found that getting absolutely wasted didnt appeal me when i was out in the field with my friends. I think that those with conservative parents tend to binge drink a lot more purely out of defiance, whereas to those who have been allowed the odd glass of lager here and there its less of a novelty.

A-ha, but isn't it also true that the children of alcoholics are much more likely to become alcoholics themselves! Maybe only parents who are not conservative OR drink to excess can let their children drink

bonkey

ionapaul wrote:

A-ha, but isn't it also true that the children of alcoholics are much more likely to become alcoholics themselves!

I thought it was the other way around - that they were less likely. Any figures to back this up?

chill

ionapaul wrote:

The obsession by the Irish public with alcohol has led to the governmental interest in regulating the industry.

I do not buy this.
The obsession is CAUSED by the regulatory obsession. When did closing hours start ? Was it caused by binge drinking ? No.

When you were abroad you probably made the comparison between the amount of alcohol the typical Irish man/woman in their late teens/20s/30s drinks and people from other societies. We simply drink far too much. This is mainly a result of our national obsession with the 'demon drink', as well as a genetic propensity for alcoholism/addictive nature.

No I don't agree. Our national obsession is caused by our society's obsession with REGULATING it.
The irish poeple I encountered abroad drank less than here because they were surrounded by families and by others who were relaxed and no one needed to gulp ten pints before closing time because there was no closing time !

Until our drink culture changes letting 14 and 15 year olds drink wine and beer (they are anyway, in case you've been living in a cave recently) is not a good idea IMO. Many of my friends and co-workers cannot have a night out without drinking to excess - that is the heart of the problem.

No. This obsession will NEVER end until the obsession with regulation ends.

We need to end closing times, and stop making children obsessed with drink by making it so attractive due to banning it. Banning ANYTHING makes it more attractive to ANY teen.

ionapaul

chill wrote:

We need to end closing times, and stop making children obsessed with drink by making it so attractive due to banning it. Banning ANYTHING makes it more attractive to ANY teen.

Teenagers can't vote either, and yet young people in their late teens and early twenties are traditionally the least likely to vote - you would think since it was held from them for so many years they would be 'obsessed' enough with it to vote like crazy once they could! Lots of things are banned without anyone becoming obsessed with them. Teens actually smoke less now then in previous years, when it was easier for them to do so! The 'regulation equals obsession' argument does not hold water I think.

Irish teenagers obsession with alcohol is a product of our alcohol obsessed culture, IMO. We were obsessed by the 'demon drink' many many years before the current interest in regulation. I have to admit I doubt any regulations with solve Irish problems with alcohol...I believe we need a social change for that to happen.

Just a quick google on the children of alcoholics-more likely to have problems thing reveals the following website:

http://www.health.org/nongovpubs/coafacts/

See section 3. I am sure that statistics can also be found to disprove this! I normally refrain from attempting to 'prove' anything using internet sources - have been in too many flame wars about evolution where the creationists back up their arguments with 'conclusive scientific proof' that the world is only 6,000 years old

AngelofFire

A-ha, but isn't it also true that the children of alcoholics are much more likely to become alcoholics themselves! Maybe only parents who are not conservative OR drink to excess can let their children drink

Yes but its time that the government and the sunday mirror have to wake up to the fact that drinking and alcoholism are two completely different things. Parents who drink and allow their teenagers to do so in moderation are not all necessarily alcoholics,only a small minortiy of them are.

chill

ionapaul wrote:

Teenagers can't vote either, and yet young people in their late teens and early twenties are traditionally the least likely to vote - you would think since it was held from them for so many years they would be 'obsessed' enough with it to vote like crazy once they could! Lots of things are banned without anyone becoming obsessed with them.

Apples and oranges. A meaningless point imho.

Teens actually smoke less now then in previous years, when it was easier for them to do so! The 'regulation equals obsession' argument does not hold water I think.

Smoking is not illegal. Also more teens do smoke than older people afaik... so the principle stands.

Irish teenagers obsession with alcohol is a product of our alcohol obsessed culture, IMO. We were obsessed by the 'demon drink' many many years before the current interest in regulation.

I don't believe we were actually.

I have to admit I doubt any regulations with solve Irish problems with alcohol...I believe we need a social change for that to happen.

I believe that governmental interference in our lives and over regulation is the cause and if this is removed then our society will start to respond.