L Plate conditions

cormie

Hi,
Is there a set size for L plates? My friend said there has to be at least one inch of white border around the L or else its illegal. Is this true? I want to go on the motorway discreetly.

Esel

*Not* a smart plan. The cops will 'notice', plus your insurance will be invalid if you have an accident...

If you are still going ahead, have you tried a google or the Dept of the Environment website...:dunno:

cormie

I'm going from Bray to Finglas every morning. It would take forever the non motorway route:( I'll hopefully get fully licensed soon!

Shrimp

Originally posted by esel
*Not* a smart plan. The cops will 'notice', plus your insurance will be invalid if you have an accident...

If you are still going ahead, have you tried a google or the Dept of the Environment website...:dunno:

Exactly

Esel

I give you a week tops before some other driver drops a dime on you - it gets boring in that car park.

I can hear the cop in Control now ...."Yeah, thanks a lot, you're the nnth person to call us about that car, but thanks anyway...btw...are you on a mobile phone....where exactly is that L-plate car?.....I see...and you're the car immediately behind it are you....we'll be in touch...drive safely now".

Have you considered Dart/bus? or moving to the beautiful Northside?

logic1

Umm I've never heard of anyone getting stopped for driving on the motorway with L's.

I've been doing it myself with months.

.logic.

Sleipnir

What's the point in buying L-plates and then disguising them. I love the ones with all the white cut out. You can just about make out the L when you're 15 feet away.
I mean, what is the bloody point?

Seth Brundle

In reality, you are unlikely to be stopped at the moment.

fjon

There definitely a set size for the L Plates, and an inch of white sounds about right.
I have been driving the M50 stretch from Ballinteer to Blanch every day for the last two years , and see quite a few L Drivers on it. I have never seen anyone get caught.
To be honest, I am not too worried about allowing L drivers on motorways. To me they are far safer roads than some of the backroads in this country.

PBC_1966

Just a thought, but if a cop (sorry, Garda ) sees you driving along with modified "L" plates, maybe that would give him reason to think something's amiss and pull you over? Maybe it would be better to drive without them at all and not draw attention to yourself; unless he stopped you for something else he'd have no reason to assume you're not a fully licensed driver.

(Not that I would advocate doing such a thing, you understand -- Just pondering over the problem!)

Captain Trips

esel wrote:

I give you a week tops before some other driver drops a dime on you - it gets boring in that car park.

I can hear the cop in Control now ...."Yeah, thanks a lot, you're the nnth person to call us about that car, but thanks anyway...btw...are you on a mobile phone....where exactly is that L-plate car?.....I see...and you're the car immediately behind it are you....we'll be in touch...drive safely now".

"Well seeing as the traffic is stopped as usual and I am out having a stroll in the M50 waiting for the cars to move ........"

seamus

L plates are a red L on a white background, and must be at least 4" x 4".

esel wrote:

*Not* a smart plan. The cops will 'notice', plus your insurance will be invalid if you have an accident...

Not true.

cormie

I also see quite a few cars with L plates. They could be fully licensed drivers who's children drive the car at weekends or something. However I look my age, 20.. Maybe it would be best to take them down altogether, but then I would have to put them up again on exit. Either way I'm breaking the law. I'm not driving with a fully licensed driver, I'm on the motorway and I may have no L plates up. Eeeek. Think It's time to take my test.

cormie

seamus wrote:

L plates are a red L on a white background, and must be at least 4" x 4".

Not true.

so I will be covered?

Stark

I've seen people with these L-plates that have just the "L" and transparent background. They're probably illegal. Not sure about getting caught on the motorway, myself and some friends drove to and from Dublin one weekend using the motorways and nothing happened to us.

By the way, on the issue of L-plates - What are they like as regards removing/replacing regularly? I plan to learn to drive in my parents car but don't plan on using it that often and don't want them to have to go around with langer signs tattoed on them on my account.

seamus

cormie wrote:

so I will be covered?

Yes, yes you will.


(Messages have to be 10 chars. Boo)

PBC_1966

Captain Trips wrote:

"Well seeing as the traffic is stopped as usual and I am out having a stroll in the M50 waiting for the cars to move ........"

"So, you're walking along the side of the motorway, are you? Are you aware that pedestrians aren't allowed on motroways, Sir?"

I don't understand why such a big deal is made of "L" plates in this part of the world. There's no equivalent in the U.S. and it doesn't seem to cause any problem.

Stark

Yes but the Americans don't have the security of saying "Oh thank god it wasn't my fault, that guy was a ****** learner driver".

"L-plates. Include imaginary sign that says 'Direct Road Rage Here ->'"

Seth Brundle

Stark wrote:

By the way, on the issue of L-plates - What are they like as regards removing/replacing regularly? I plan to learn to drive in my parents car but don't plan on using it that often and don't want them to have to go around with langer signs tattoed on them on my account.

AFAIK only people learning to drive can use them - if you are fully licenced and driving the car you must remove them beforehand.

PBC_1966 wrote:

I don't understand why such a big deal is made of "L" plates in this part of the world. There's no equivalent in the U.S. and it doesn't seem to cause any problem.

Thankfully no other country has the crap method of training drivers that Ireland is proud of!

cormie wrote:

so I will be covered?

yes but the insurance company can recover any costs of a claim from you (and I believe are starting to carry out this)

Captain Trips

PBC_1966 wrote:

"So, you're walking along the side of the motorway, are you? Are you aware that pedestrians aren't allowed on motroways, Sir?"
.

lol, never thought of that one....also on the blue sign............!

impr0v

They might not stop you, but should you happen to warrant their attention for other reasons they'll book you for it.

Article in todays indo about some air corps apprentice doing 111mph on the M7 at night, got convicted of that and driving on a motorway with a provisional. Licence confiscated for a year and 350 in fines. Hardly a tough punishment, but I'd imagine the judge's thinking was 'i'll slap him on the wrist, and let the insurance companies hang, draw and quarter him.'

unkel

imho the system should be changed so that the only time an unqualified driver is in the driver's seat is when a qualified instructor is beside him/her in the instructor's dual control learning vehicle

Qualification would need to mean an entirely different thing from what it means now as well of course

Once that system is started, you will see the number of motoring accidents, injuries and deaths start going down and down and the average speed realised in this country going up and up

My car has this yoke that registers my average speed. I've had my car for over 5 months now. I live in the greater Dublin area. I rarely venture inside the M50 circle during rush hour. I don't really have gridlock problems on my daily commute. I never let my engine idle when parked. My average speed so far is.....

21mph

kbannon wrote:

yes but the insurance company can recover any costs of a claim from you (and I believe are starting to carry out this)

That new to me :eek:

cormie

Waiting list for tests is about 1 year. That would be unfair. I've been driving since March and I honestly think I'm probably better than allot of fully licensed drivers out there. That's not me boasting, just me putting them down... Everyone says it, once you pass your test you become a worse driver.

PBC_1966

unkel wrote:

imho the system should be changed so that the only time an unqualified driver is in the driver's seat is when a qualified instructor is beside him/her in the instructor's dual control learning vehicle

As someone who grew up in a country where a learner has to have a licensed driver with him in the car, I'm still trying to get to grips with this idea that Irish learners can drive unaccompanied. I'd never even considered this possibility until joining your forum.

I wouldn't go as far to say as you should drive only with a qualified instructor though. What's the average cost per hour for an instructor in Ireland at the moment? If all practice had to be done with an instructor it would make getting a license horrendously expensive, surely? Changing the rules to require a licensed driver would be much more acceptable to most people, I believe.

cormie wrote:

Everyone says it, once you pass your test you become a worse driver.

I think it depends upon the individual person and on what you actually mean by "worse."

Yes, there are those who once they pass their test and gain confidence behind the wheel seem to lose all sight of common sense and start driving like idiots -- "Hey, I've got my license, I'm a great driver, I can take chances!" :rolleyes:

But there are those who do not follow this path. It may sound like an old cliche, but there really is no substitute for experience. Sure, by driving school standards those of us who have been driving for years might be "worse," because we gave up on their pettiness years ago -- You know, hands always at 10-to-2, feed the wheel with both hands when turning, pull on the parking brake every time you stop at a light for two seconds, and all that nonsense.

The thing that experience gives you is the ability to "read the road" better and anticipate what is going to happen, what might happen, etc. Does that make me a better driver now than when I had just passed my test 21 years ago? I would like to think so.

Seth Brundle

PBC_1966 wrote:

Changing the rules to require a licensed driver would be much more acceptable to most people, I believe.

That is the current rule (except when on provisional #2)

fjon

PBC_1966 wrote:

But there are those who do not follow this path. It may sound like an old cliche, but there really is no substitute for experience. Sure, by driving school standards those of us who have been driving for years might be "worse," because we gave up on their pettiness years ago -- You know, hands always at 10-to-2, feed the wheel with both hands when turning, pull on the parking brake every time you stop at a light for two seconds, and all that nonsense.

The thing that experience gives you is the ability to "read the road" better and anticipate what is going to happen, what might happen, etc. Does that make me a better driver now than when I had just passed my test 21 years ago? I would like to think so.

I totally agree - being a good driver is all about experience. However, would that not mean that a learner driver who driving for one year waiting for his/ her full license is a better driver than a "proper" driver who has passed his/her test a few weeks after starting to drive?

I don't think it is fair that so many L drivers get a lot of flak for being bad drivers. Sure, there are some atrocious ones out there, but many drive as well as drivers with full licenses. The only difference is a piece of paper from a test which is, frankly, quite easy to pass if you have any sort of cop on.

seamus

PBC_1966 wrote:

I wouldn't go as far to say as you should drive only with a qualified instructor though. What's the average cost per hour for an instructor in Ireland at the moment? If all practice had to be done with an instructor it would make getting a license horrendously expensive, surely? Changing the rules to require a licensed driver would be much more acceptable to most people, I believe.

That would be pretty much my sentiments. Maybe a mandatory number of lessons with an instructor to learn correct procedure, and after that they can drive with a fully licensed driver. Driving with a qualified instructor (and particularly dual-control cars) is good for instruction, but restrictive when it comes to gaining experience and roadcraft. Dual-control cars are not normal, and wouldn't give a realistic experience for learners. Part of driving is learning that you are the driver, you are responsible for everything that occurs to and in the car while you drive.

But there are those who do not follow this path. It may sound like an old cliche, but there really is no substitute for experience. Sure, by driving school standards those of us who have been driving for years might be "worse," because we gave up on their pettiness years ago -- You know, hands always at 10-to-2, feed the wheel with both hands when turning, pull on the parking brake every time you stop at a light for two seconds, and all that nonsense.

The thing that experience gives you is the ability to "read the road" better and anticipate what is going to happen, what might happen, etc. Does that make me a better driver now than when I had just passed my test 21 years ago? I would like to think so.

Indeed. Many experienced drivers would fail a test now, mainly because the rules set out in the test for the way you drive are to ensure that learner drivers are driving in the safest manner possible, in the absence of actual experience, which cannot be substituted.

Stark

That would be pretty much my sentiments. Maybe a mandatory number of lessons with an instructor to learn correct procedure, and after that they can drive with a fully licensed driver. Driving with a qualified instructor (and particularly dual-control cars) is good for instruction, but restrictive when it comes to gaining experience and roadcraft. Dual-control cars are not normal, and wouldn't give a realistic experience for learners. Part of driving is learning that you are the driver, you are responsible for everything that occurs to and in the car while you drive.

I'm the situation where I have to take 10 lessons before I can get insured and start driving with a parent in the car or whatever. It's a complete bitch. I'm sensible enough not to drive into town at my current experience level obviously but I'd still like to go to some quiet industrial estate or whatever to practice between lessons. Driving instructor is constantly giving out to me for not practicing saying I keep losing skills between lessons. (Although I'm going to try and get a few lessons in the one week).

As someone who grew up in a country where a learner has to have a licensed driver with him in the car, I'm still trying to get to grips with this idea that Irish learners can drive unaccompanied. I'd never even considered this possibility until joining your forum.

You can't drive unaccompanied on your first provisional licence, only on your second. And that's mostly to do with the outrageous waiting times for a full licence test.

I wouldn't go as far to say as you should drive only with a qualified instructor though. What's the average cost per hour for an instructor in Ireland at the moment? If all practice had to be done with an instructor it would make getting a license horrendously expensive, surely? Changing the rules to require a licensed driver would be much more acceptable to most people, I believe.

€30 an hour. Horrendously expensive and horrendously frustrating (I can't take hand held tuition at all, I need to learn things on my own ).

seamus

Stark wrote:

I'm the situation where I have to take 10 lessons before I can get insured and start driving with a parent in the car or whatever. It's a complete bitch. I'm sensible enough not to drive into town at my current experience level obviously but I'd still like to go to some quiet industrial estate or whatever to practice between lessons. Driving instructor is constantly giving out to me for not practicing saying I keep losing skills between lessons. (Although I'm going to try and get a few lessons in the one week).

You should be safe to drive in any non-public place - carparks after hours, school grounds, etc. I wouldn't go as far as saying 10 lessons - as you say, you do need to practice between them. But maybe 3 or 4 minimum, just to get the basics of driving, and some common sense drummed into you.

PBC_1966

fwk wrote:

However, would that not mean that a learner driver who driving for one year waiting for his/ her full license is a better driver than a "proper" driver who has passed his/her test a few weeks after starting to drive?

That's a valid point, and one which could certainly be argued in my case. My license conveniently reminds me that I passed my test on April 12, 1983. That's just one month and one day after my 17th birthday, so I had been driving on public roads for less than 5 weeks at that time.

Now, I would say that I had been interested in driving and had studied up on the theory and practice for many years before. Like most kids probably, I'd also sat next to my father and steered or changed gear for him since the age of 8 or 9, so it's not quite like going into driving with no knowledge at all.

There are people who do that however. Until a few years ago my brother worked as a driving instructor in London. Incredible as it may seem, he said he was amazed at the number of students who arrived for their first lesson with him, paying out good money, and they hadn't even bothered to read a little information for themsleves beforehand. He said that some came to him not even knowing which pedal was the accelerator and which the brake!

seamus

PBC_1966 wrote:

There are people who do that however. Until a few years ago my brother worked as a driving instructor in London. Incredible as it may seem, he said he was amazed at the number of students who arrived for their first lesson with him, paying out good money, and they hadn't even bothered to read a little information for themsleves beforehand. He said that some came to him not even knowing which pedal was the accelerator and which the brake!

Well in fairness, that's the entire point of getting the lessons, isn't it? I know when I was younger, I had asked which pedal is which, but I never remembered, so when my dad first took me out (on private grounds) it was literally a matter of, "Right, that's the brake, that's the clutch, that's the accelerator...etc". Although I was 18 at the time, so I had some rudimentary understanding of "Press clutch - change gear", and I was familiar with most of the Rules of the road.