Should convicted rapists be castrated

Hagar

I am not in favour of this castration idea at all, but how about a compromise? Say loose one ball for a first offence, I know if I was down to just one ball I would learn to behave very quick.

JTPB

Kell wrote:

By the sounds of it, chemical castration nullifies endorhpins and I would think too that it would nullify testosterone too. Now, before you all assume I am going down the road of rape being a sexually oriented crime which I do not believe it is, surely lowering testosterone levels would lower any form of aggressive tendency in the perp to commit the crime?

I suppose you are right, it seems logical that if chemical castration drastically lowered sexual desire, then the would-be rapist would not have any motivation to have forcible sex.

However, most men do not rape, despite their desires to have sex.

KELL wrote:

Take on board this for a moment. In some of my counselling literature, reference has been made to paedophiles and the fact that they will not be cured no matter how much money is thrown into their rehab. They wont be cured because paedophilia is their sexuality, just like you and I are either hetero, bi or gay. Consider this for a moment then. Is rape a feature of a rapists sexuality and if it is, is there anything really that can be done about it?K-

A heterosexual or homosexual man can legally fulfil his sexuality any time he likes - several times a month, if he likes, by having consensual sex with the partner of his choice.

A paedophile, sexually attracted to children, does not enjoy have that massive degree of sexual freedom, and lifelong can never legally or practically have any type of sexual activity with the partner of his choice.

Rapists just don't bother waiting till the weekend - rape is not a feature of the sexuality of heteros, homos, or bi's - rapists just impose their will on people whenever they feel like it although they have alternatives.

beer enigma

amp wrote:

I don't think reputation has even been implemented fully yet.

Lol - just as well amp, I've more red cards from this thread than Roy Keane (not that he posted here - allegedly !!)

sliabh

naughty_girl wrote:

In nature animals that kill for sport are isolated and despised. they are well known.

So you have never owned a cat then so?

Specky

Testosterone dosen't equate to violence.

Perhaps not but there are numerous studies of incarcerated male and female criminals (of various types but mostly convicted of crimes with violence) that show a correlation to increased levels of testosterone. (I don't have the material to hand at the moment to provide references but can do later if it's of particular interest to anyone).

Now, there are also studies that link ADD to violent behaviour, there are other studies that link parental drinking, smoking and drug taking to ADD and there are studies that link childhood abuse to adult substance abuse.....so does rape cause rape????

Probably not, but this really illustrates how complex the whole situation is.

Kell

Zulu wrote:

This isn't true. Testosterone dosen't equate to violence. If you wish to create a more passive person - I would recommend a full frontal lobotomy - it works 100% of the time, but thats no more right than the rape crime in the first place.

Redcued testosterone does reduce aggressive tendencies. All you have to do is look at the previous example cited by a poster re bullocks and think of dogs that have been snipped.


[/QUOTE]I hope you wouldn't consider a full frontal lobotomy! ...people need to consider the innocient - not just the victim. People get wrongly convicted all the time. If casturation, or any other forced medical proceedure is made available, how would you feel if you were innocient? We must srrive for a less barbaric society.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree that people get wrongly convicted all the time, however, as also pointed out by a previous poster, chemical castration needs to be administered every six months to be successful. If the defendant were found not guilty on appeal, the treatments stop and guiltless person returns to a sexually functioning human being. In the case of clear cut witnessed cases, chemical castration all the way.

I hate this defend the perp crap. The perp, as far as I am concerned, gave up their right to rights on committing a crime of that magnitude. In clear cut cases, I would actually like to see public execution. Might make the fúckers think twice before pondering the crime.

[/QUOTE]Not all hetrosexual people have sex. Not all gay people have sex. You see, wheither a person is aroused by aggressive sex - that dosen't make them rapists. It takes a very special sick basta*d to commit that crime. [/QUOTE]

I didnt suggest the notion of arousal through aggressive sex making a person a rapist. What I did suggest is that maybe, just maybe, being a rapist is a fundamental aspect of a individuals pschy and not some random violent act. BTW, that is pure sense of wondering on my part and is entirely unsubstantiated by any research whatsoever.

K-

JTPB

Kell wrote:

Zulu wrote:

I hope you wouldn't consider a full frontal lobotomy! ...people need to consider the innocient - not just the victim. People get wrongly convicted all the time. If casturation, or any other forced medical proceedure is made available, how would you feel if you were innocient? We must srrive for a less barbaric society.

(Snipped for brevity)

I hate this defend the perp crap. The perp, as far as I am concerned, gave up their right to rights on committing a crime of that magnitude. In clear cut cases, I would actually like to see public execution. Might make the fúckers think twice before pondering the crime.

I don't think Zulu was "defending the perp"; he did not say the perp should get off scot-free with the crime. I got the strong impression, though, that Zulu was worried about the innocent being subjected to forced medical procedures.

As for you wanting to see the perp endure a public execution, :eek: which seems extreme to me, would you not settle instead for the rapist being raped himself, as punishment, or revenge, on "an eye for an eye grounds"?

Zulu

Kell wrote:

I hate this defend the perp crap. The perp, as far as I am concerned, gave up their right to rights on committing a crime of that magnitude. In clear cut cases, I would actually like to see public execution. Might make the fúckers think twice before pondering the crime.
K-

Well the problem is that there isn't any "clear-cut" cases. Also, public executions could very well desensitise a society to violence, and thus making it far more acceptable to the people as a whole.
For instance, places with the lowest rates of crime, tend to be societies where any violence is abhorent. ie: Sweden, where it's been illegal to hit your child. The mentality is that the child dosn't see violence as an option to resolve conflicts.

The emphisis for a society should be on re-habilitation, forgivness, and forward thinking, not revenge, brutality, and violence.

(But I completly understand the urge to lash out at such crimes, they do truly repulse me. I read the paper (about the poor couple in Limerick) and couldn't put it down, the feeling of sheer horror/shock/sickness - it was like a kick in the balls without the physical pain)

pretty-in-pink

The revenge id be most happy with is something fair. say name them. that way people can avoid them, keep save and reduce their chances of being attacked. tag the perp and let the public make up their minds. the reason that there is such a back lash when it gets out that some one is a rapist, or paedeophile is because of the violent, twisted, heinous connections to it. I know that rapists get off on the power they feel when their "chosen one" is begging, struggling, shouting, crying, the usual means of escape. i can fully undersatnd the desire to maim and degrade the attacker, but I dont advocate it. Id rather see them in their own personnal hell, where they klnow its their fault they are there. put them in jail and when they get out they feel that they have "served their time" and deserve all these rights and equal treatment. heck if they really truly regret and repent their actions maybe they do, its so very hard to forgive, harder to forget. Anyone who knows me wants to kill he guy who hurt me, but I dont want that. it will all come right in the end. whoever deserves eternal bliss in the after life will get it, those that dont will suffer whatever punishment god deems fit.

we dont really have the right to hurt someone no matter what. murder is murder even if its legal. in the eyes of the lord we will be judged.

im also not advocating mob justice but it will happen and people will feel somewhat sated in their blood lust for revenge. not saying it should happen, but if things dont change soon it will.

as for my animal analogy, animals dont kill for sport usually, they kill for food. its thir instict. since when is rape an instinct? animals dont rape eachother. there is no solution to keep everyone happy, but there has to be a middle ground that the majority of the system is over looking because criminal rights are given more consideration then civilian ones. they should lose their rights when found guilty and be dragged through the mud like their victim is.


its the lax attitude to justace that has aided in the widespread existence of rape gangs. the guy who did it to me was in one, and i gotta say the memeories that float in every so often are scary and sick. the details that i can kid of remeber are fuzzy, and i know there are big gaps which paraliises me with fear because anything could have happened.

i would never be able to give a "fair" verdict or sentence for murder or rape, i know im biast but heck this is an opinions board and thsi is my opinion. agree or not, its what i feel.

pretty-in-pink

The revenge id be most happy with is something fair. say name them. that way people can avoid them, keep save and reduce their chances of being attacked. tag the perp and let the public make up their minds. the reason that there is such a back lash when it gets out that some one is a rapist, or paedeophile is because of the violent, twisted, heinous connections to it. I know that rapists get off on the power they feel when their "chosen one" is begging, struggling, shouting, crying, the usual means of escape. i can fully understand the desire to maim and degrade the attacker, but I dont advocate it. Id rather see them in their own personnal hell, where they klnow its their fault they are there. put them in jail and when they get out they feel that they have "served their time" and deserve all these rights and equal treatment. heck if they really truly regret and repent their actions maybe they do, its so very hard to forgive, harder to forget. Anyone who knows me wants to kill the guy who hurt me, but I dont want that. it will all come right in the end. whoever deserves eternal bliss in the after life will get it, those that dont will suffer whatever punishment god deems fit.

we dont really have the right to hurt someone no matter what. murder is murder even if its legal. in the eyes of the lord we will be judged.

im also not advocating mob justice but it will happen and people will feel somewhat sated in their blood lust for revenge. not saying it should happen, but if things dont change soon it will.

as for my animal analogy, animals dont kill for sport usually, they kill for food. its their instict. since when is rape an instinct? animals dont rape eachother. there is no solution to keep everyone happy, but there has to be a middle ground that the majority of the system are over looking because criminal rights are given more consideration then civilian ones. they should lose their rights when found guilty and while the case is in the courts they should have their life and their friends lives and their families lives dragged through the mud like their victims life etc is. that or dont drag anyone through the mud, treat them equally until one party is found guilty


its the lax attitude to justace that has aided in the widespread existence of rape gangs. the guy who did it to me was in one, and i gotta say the memeories that float in every so often are scary and sick. the details that i can kinda of remember are fuzzy, and i know there are big gaps which paralises me with fear because anything could have happened.

i would never be able to give a "fair" verdict or sentence for murder or rape, i know im biast but heck this is an opinions board and thsi is my opinion. agree or not, its what i feel.

Zulu

First off - respect and credit naughty_girl. I completely sympathise with what happened to you, and I understand that nothing I do/say can change anything, but you have my respect for your level headness, and attitude to this issue.

...but (and there's always a but)

naughty_girl wrote:

The revenge id be most happy with is something fair. say name them. that way people can avoid them, keep save and reduce their chances of being attacked....
i can fully understand the desire to maim and degrade the attacker, but I don't advocate it. Id rather see them in their own personal hell, where they know its their fault they are there....
Anyone who knows me wants to kill he guy who hurt me, but I don't want that...
im also not advocating mob justice but it will happen and people will feel somewhat sated in their blood lust for revenge. not saying it should happen, but if things dont change soon it will....

The tricky thing here is, people will want revenge no matter what. For example - the boyfriend of the girl previously mentioned who was locked in the boot of the car - when ever the rapists get out, he'll want blood.
If anything happened anyone I know, I'm sure my since of justice would sail out the window.
Naming people is a tricky situation also, again I'll refer to the paediatrician who was confused with a paedophile. Imagine if you moved to a new neighbourhood, and unfortunately happened to share the name of a rapist - say Sean Murphy! ...but I agree, no-one wants to live beside a rapist. Particularly if its the same animal that attacked you.

naughty_girl wrote:

as for my animal analogy, animals don't kill for sport usually, they kill for food. its thir instinct. since when is rape an instinct? animals don't rape each other.

Well, animals DO kill for fun. Dogs/Cats/Killer Whales, all have been documented tormenting an animal for no reasons, except as a play object.
As for rape - animals can't/don't say no. You can't apply the analogy really.

naughty_girl wrote:

its the lax attitude to justice that has aided in the widespread existence of rape gangs.

I don't know about this really - perhaps more people are just coming forward in today's society.

Silent Grape

naughty girl, im as biased as you are, but i dont agree with everything your saying.
i dont agree with naming and shaming, that is going to hurt everybody living near him, they will probably never be able to live in ease with him there, and its mightily unfair to the perp to continue his punishment after its been served. of course be put on the sex offenders list or whatever, but there's no need to ruin other peoples daily lives. that way we're only granting him control and power, all over again.

there is no point even comparing rapists to animals, its far too complex and issue to do that. animals' mindsets are incomparable to humans.

as for dragging the rapists family and friends through the mud? why involve anybody except the rapist? how is it (generally speaking) the family and friends' faults?

my friends who were with me on the night in question had to go out of their way for me, but they were doing it for the right reasons, i wasnt 'dragging them through the mud' or anything like that.

someone said earlier, that we should lead by example. there is no point in lowering ourselves to their standards by this castration malarky. what we need to do is rehabilitate the person back into the world as a safe individual. dont know how this is done, but castration is certainly not the answer. chemical or otherwise. people keep forgetting there are other means they can get their power trip, like raping someone with something other than his penis. they get turned on by power, not by sexual desire.

naughty girl, maybe you could talk to a rape counseller or something about letting go of all the hate your feeling. i can empathise in how your feeling, i misscarried by him, im still not even slightly over it four years down the line. but the only real way of exacting out own personal revenge is not to have our friends kick the **** out of them, that would be letting him control our actions, but to get on with our own lives, and it would deppress us eventually, because even afterwards, it still isnt a satisfactory punishment .we have to control our own lives, not let what happend control how we feel any longer. i know how uncredibly unfair it is, he was never convicted, as it took to me too long to report it,and my memories are very blurry, but honey itll be okay, eventually we'll look back on the whole thing and be stronger, better and wiser for it.

x

Zulu

Respect to you too, Silent Grape!
I think it speaks volumes that both yourself and naughty_girl, both who have been attacked, believe that revenge/capital punishment is not a valid solution. It speaks volumes about the both of you, I only hope I could have your strength and grace.

It's something the "castrate/seek physical vengeance" should take on board, and consider.

Sleepy

Silent Bob wrote:

I have a question for those advocating castration.

One of the fundamental tenets of our legal system is that when your debt to society has been paid you are once again considered a full citizen of the country with all the rights that that entails.

If you castrate somebody then that is (as far as I am aware) permanent and for life. Are you then proposing that their debt to society will never be paid until they are dead? Who are we to mess with someone's entire life, beyond that period that is required in order to pay for the debt to society?

As you were already informed if you'd read the thread, chemical castration is reversible. Secondly, can you ever see those thugs paying their debts to society? No, they'll just bleed it dry like every other scumbag in the country. Our society is wrong. Their debts can't be paid so it's better to just write them off and stop throwing good money after bad. I would see absolutely nothing wrong with a sentance of a quick bullet to the head (in the yard of the courthouse, forget America's expensive showy executions) in extreme cases such as the one being discussed.

(waits for his reputation points to be killed by bleeding heart liberals.)

Zulu

Sleepy wrote:

As you were already informed if you'd read the thread, chemical castration is reversible.

I don't know if it is Sleepy - and if it was, wouldn't we use it as a form of contraception? Something tells me NOT to believe that it's reversible.

Sleepy wrote:

Secondly, can you ever see those thugs paying their debts to society? No, they'll just bleed it dry like every other scumbag in the country. Our society is wrong. Their debts can't be paid so it's better to just write them off and stop throwing good money after bad. I would see absolutely nothing wrong with a sentance of a quick bullet to the head (in the yard of the courthouse, forget the state's expensive showy executions) in extreme cases such as the one being discussed.

(waits for his reputation points to be killed by bleeding heart liberals.)

Well I won't touch your reputation points, but you're in some form today - you usually tend to the left.
Anyhow, no, a bullet to the back of the head (in this case) would probably be best - but I can't condon it. We need to understand why people do this in order to best protect/prevent it happening again.
Unfortunatly there isn't enough money being invested into the study of such issues. Unfortunatly, people tend to believe in the tried and trusted (although not effictive) methods. This mentality works at all levels of society. From a slap to the child that just wouldn't listen, to the bombing of the country that just wouldn't comply. People see violence as a viable solution when other means don't work.
(I'm not saying nothing should be done, or that violence should never be used - before the crazy right-wing neo-consertives destroy my reputation points )

Silent Grape

the 'bullet to the head' approach would do no good to how we live and our society. what about bullies who can dose out just as much emotional and physical trauma as a rapist? my brother recieved a letter last year from a bully, apologising, etc etc, saying how he'd like to meet up if my brother was up to it, to explain himself. my brother is 31, in rehab for various addictions, not solely but mostly because of this one guy in school, yet he gave him a second chance. he didnt meet with him, but he replyed to the letter.

what about second chances? we cant just write people off, no matter what they did, also why i dont agree with the death penalty. this is a rape and sexual abuse 'victim' talking here, maybe what we need is more understanding, diplomacy, instead of quick fixes. castration is a quick fix,but isnt in the long run.

Syth

The revenge id be most happy with is something fair. say name them. that way people can avoid them, keep save and reduce their chances of being attacked.

There are practical problems with that approach. Even if a convicted rapist is named and their address published, they still could just randomly attack someone on the street or dark alley, without introducing themselves. It would be difficult to know if the person walking towards you on the street was a rapist.

There seems to be much talk about chemical castration which would lower testosterone and (as claimed by some) would lower aggession. However women have lower testosterone then men, and yet they commit crimes too. I know it's a lot less, but it still exists, so it probably will not turn a rapist into a model citizen.

Also in case people don't know, there are testosterone replacements one can get. Men who have had testicaular cancer or whose bodies don't produce enough testosterone get testosterone replacement therapy. They get testosterone injections to replace the testosterone their bodies can't replace. Since testosterone is active in male puberty and causes muscle growth, there is a black market in it, especially amoung bodybuilders to 'bulk up'.

If a chemically castrated person could get some (and I'm sure it's not too dificult), then they could take enough to bring themselves up to normal levels, thus negating the effects of the chemical castration. I'm sure they would be glad to think that they are beating the system. Not to mention the fact that since they wouldn't be taking it under medical supervision (obviously), there is a chance they could take to much, and hence have higher testosterone levels than before.

Just some flaws with the practicality of chemical castration.

Sleepy

Zulu, Silent Grape - I'm not suggesting that anyone who breaks the law be shot in the back of the head. However, I'd fully advocate it for someone like that little scumbag with the 35 prior charges. Can you honestly believe that this guy will change? That he'll pay his dues to society? Nope, he'll just cost the taxpayer a fortune to lock him up between his crime sprees. Bullet, head, problem solved.

As usual, I have massive problems with the way our entire system works and have a mixture of right, and left-wing ideas that I believe would counter societies problems. I'd fully support the beter funding of education, youth workers, a proper free health service etc. in this country as I believe the majority of crime stems from ignorance, poverty and a sense that there's no way to improve one's lot in life as opposed to people naturally being violent or greed. Yes, these factors do produce criminals but they don't produce the kind of scumbag that has Mountjoy Prison bursting at the seams.

I'd abolish the dole, forcing people to better their lots. If we have jobs for our immigrants (who, I hasten to add before I'm labelled a racist, I admire for their bravery and determination, and most of whom seem to be far harder working and commited to making of themselves than a lot of the irish), there's enough jobs there for the Irish if we're not too proud to take a job stacking shelves/serving Big Macs/whatever. For those that genuinely can't get work, I'd be for the idea of the government paying them minimum wage to work for the local community in some manner (cleaning streets/ removing grafitti / tending parks etc) for a flexi-time four day week (allowing them time to attend interviews etc).

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't make any claims that better off people don't commit crimes. They do. However, a better off community produces far fewer career-criminals than a ghetto. Couple a system that takes people out of the ghettos with a system of accountability and swift, harsh justice for all crime and corruption and I think you'd see plunging crime rates over the next 20 years.

Zulu

Sleepy - I agree with most of what you say there in your last post. (Except for the bullet in the head bit) The only problem is, with the nature of our society/social structure we are always going to have the "ghetto" where crime will breed. People are inherently greedy/power hungry hence the demise of socialism.

Silent Grape

you seem to have it all sorted out there, sleepy, why not run for mayor.

i dont believe we have the right to kill another human, no matter what they have done. it doesnt matter that he doesnt change, what matters is that we try to have the best society possible, and one that kills off their 'problems' instread of solving and preventing them is a dangerous one to live in.

abolish the dole, yeah. great idea... :rolleyes:

anyway, back on topic

JTPB

Overall, after reading what I've read here, and after some reflection I'm tending towards the view that even though sexual urges have a part to play in rape, the critical factor has to do with the violently anti-social exercise of power.

I'm now thinking that there are better answers than castration.

Zulu

JTPB wrote:

Overall, after reading what I've read here, and after some reflection I'm tending towards the view that even though sexual urges have a part to play in rape, the critical factor has to do with the violently anti-social exercise of power.

I'm now thinking that there are better answers than castration.

Good work. 1 down, x billion to go.

Sleepy

Silent Grape wrote:

you seem to have it all sorted out there, sleepy, why not run for mayor.

i dont believe we have the right to kill another human, no matter what they have done. it doesnt matter that he doesnt change, what matters is that we try to have the best society possible, and one that kills off their 'problems' instread of solving and preventing them is a dangerous one to live in.

abolish the dole, yeah. great idea... :rolleyes:

anyway, back on topic

Well, I'm not running for mayor because:

a) I'm not corrupt enough to gain power in this country
b) the mayoral position is one without any kind of powers.
c) I'm not rich enough to run as an independant
d) quite frankly I don't believe in democracy
and were I to run for power:
e) I'd need the quorum of the Dail to get elected with me to implement anything.

If the majority of people thought that we never have the right to kill anyone, you'd be living under the third reich right now. You missed my point though. A nation should be strong enough to prevent these problems. Good education, a high standard of living and strong measures against habitual law breakers will prevent problems.

Ask anyone who claims the dole for the legitimate purpose it's there for would they rather work for minimum wage for 4 days a week while getting support to find work or sit on the couch all week watching Oprah and I think you'll find they'll all take the former. Anyone who wouldn't shouldn't get my tax money spent on their "little" holiday.

Back on topic: no we shouldn't castrate repeat offending rapists, we should shoot them. castration could be a good punishment for maybe a second sexual assault/rape with a bullet the penalty for the third offence/attempt.

Zulu

Sleepy wrote:

Back on topic: no we shouldn't castrate repeat offending rapists, we should shoot them. castration could be a good punishment for maybe a second sexual assault/rape with a bullet the penalty for the third offence/attempt.

I'll drop you whole dole rant. But you above solution isn't very well taught out there Sleepy. If someone was convicted twice previously, and was accused of rape again incorrectly/unjustly (lets say a cry rape case: the woman decides she didn't want to mar her image by having had sex with a rapist), it would be next or near impossible for him to convince a jury/judge that he was innocent.
The result: death penalty for an innocent man. Now if he was sent to rehab/prison, he'd always have the chance of his verdict being overturned (due to new evidence etc.)

We are out of the dark ages - lets try and progress

pretty-in-pink

Quite honestly Id be happy if i could talk to him, find out why he did it, and get a genuine apology. If someone regrets their actions they wont repeat them, or at least they are drastically less likely to. I think most people would agree with that, but as im not most people i cant really say for sure.

Sorry if i offended ya silent grape....i meant that the system that is currently in place means the "victims" of these crimes are treated like criminals with their entire sexual history dragged through the public eye. while the accused are suopposed completely innocent and their sexual history doesnt come into it. its hideously unfair,and it needs to change.

put the perp on the list and tag them. but then what next? there is no real fair solution but its darn sure the one we have doesnt work. we need more support for both groups of people, because i dont think its a black and white type of situation.

victims is in commas as i think we should have a better word for it. the perpee prehaps? answers on a postcard please!

Kell

Zulu wrote:

(But I completly understand the urge to lash out at such crimes, they do truly repulse me.

For a moment, step back in the cold harsh reality that is life and remove the notion that execution is a vengeful backlash from society. Consider, if you will, the cost saved to the public at large by not having to sustain a perp for the term he/she is inside. Consider for a moment, that the cost to the state for maintaining a perp inside for a term of 8+ years will far exceed the amount of money that will ever be given over to the rehabilitation of the victim.

It would probably pay for a vast amount more free counselling through organisations such as the Rape Crisis Centre than is currently or ever will be available.

So, when you consider that the victim will get free counselling up to a point with the rape crisis centre, and then has to pay after a number of sessions, or goes private and pays through the nose (provided they are brave enough to go in the first place), whereas the perp spends x years in an institution in relatively good conditions at the states expense, is execution really a bad thing after all?

To those posting here that have been attacked, and I'll include myself in that, would it make you feel at all at ease knowing that you would be paying for the fúcker that attacked you while they are in prison had you reported it? How would you feel then if he/she repeated the offence again with you? Dont know about you guys but I'd be pretty píssed. Thankfully the fúcker that attacked me is inside for other crimes and I am damn glad that I am no longer paying tax in the country where he is serving time.

K-

K-

Sleepy

Thank you Kell, it's nice to hear sanity.

pretty-in-pink

the guy who attacked me was meant to be my boyfriend, made matters complicated. i can understand your position, it has taken me a longish time,and the help of a heck of a lot of friends to get through that anger. i hpe you can too....i think jail is to lax, but there are so many arguments you can take on every angle that there will never be a proper viable solution. not that i can see anyway.

Silent Grape

honestly sleepy, the death penalty for rape is ridiculous idea. the 'eye for an eye' attitude of some people is bad enough, without people like you, who are trying to make yourself sound like you know what your talking about, saying that 'an eye for an eye, plus a leg, and heck why not whole body'

the running for mayor thing was sarcastic, i really didnt want to learn about all ur problems with our country. you dont believe in democracy? so what do you believe in, Lord of All Knowlege Sleepy??

people are forced onto the dole for many different and complex reasons. my brother is on the dole at the moment, he cant work due to having addiction/mental illness problems. you cant generalise to such a huge extent.

your whole attitude is so self reightous and idealistic. your only 23, you're not wise enough to be making these kind of potent remarks, which i am slightly offended by.

you go talk to a rapists family, and see what they think of the 'bullet to the head' approach. see there's more than one person involved here. just the way my family had to suffer the trauma of my rape, so do the rapists family, plus their sons murder.

JTPB

Sleepy wrote:

Back on topic: no we shouldn't castrate repeat offending rapists, we should shoot them. castration could be a good punishment for maybe a second sexual assault/rape with a bullet the penalty for the third offence/attempt.

Could I ask, is it only repeat sexual offences that you would consider the "bullet penalty" for?

BEAT

Andip wrote:

I've just finished reading the report in today's Examiner about the five lads from Limerick who pleaded guilty to the gang rape of a woman & assault of her boyfriend.

Apart from feeling revulsion over the whole thing, the worst of the sentences was 10 years, with the youngest guy (still under 16) getting four years detention. What on earth use are these guys to society , let alone the danger they will probably still pose when they're released in about 5 or 6 years time.

Now, maybe you'll think me extreme, but if you castrated them all, they'd never pose a similar risk to society again.

Well I wouldnt worry too much about them being punished, usually men put away for rape, get to know how it feels over and over again by thier loving inmates. Great how that works eh

castrating sounds great but with the frustration of not having thier male-member they might turn to killing people next, so the next best thing...
I think cutting off thier balls/vasectemy would work, atleast they could not impregnate anyone if they fancied another go at it.

Btw, someone mentioned naming them...in the states when a convicted rapist is released they are registered at the local police station where they are living and notices are mailed out to everyone in the neighborhood letting them know that persons name and address and also provides a photo. I have received one of these said notices...a convicted rapist moved in down the street from my grandmother and little sister, I really have to get them out of that neighborhood. I am glad this system is in place though, its good to know these things when you can .

dubhthach

People are talking about chemical castration and endorphins and testosterone. Testosterone is not an endorphin it's an Androgen quite a difference that's for sure. There are over 20 different type of Androgens (male hormones) by the way both women and men produce testosterone in their adrenal glands. Men have 12times the blood testosterone level of Women.

As for sentencing well i think there's a major problem in this country with giving out proper sentences, prime example is the so called "life sentence" which unless ye kill a cop ye will probably get out in just over 12years now that is seriously wrong, i think if you get a life sentence then it should be life with a shot at parole after 25years.

As said before Rape is purely a power thing. It's all about having power over somebody. Now the rapist mighten have much in way of sexual desire so though chemical castration would no doubt prevent them from getting an erection doesn't mean they wouldn't rape someone with a foreign object to get a power kick.

As said before Dolphins are well know for such behaviour as rape and even killing other dolphins however as western culture has a favourable opinion of them as a species this doesn't get reported. (Eastern culture has a favourable opinion of them as cuisine )

Likewise Lions are well know especially to commit what could be termed "murder" especially when they are not part of a pride and instead are running in small groups of males. In which case they kill for fun like in the true story behind "The Ghost and the Darkness" (not the best of movies)

My opinion on rapists is that they should get a 20year sentence (no parole) and once they enter society not only would they have to registered but would have to carry one of those gps bracelets so that their movements can be tracked.

JTPB

Sleepy wrote:

Back on topic: no we shouldn't castrate repeat offending rapists, we should shoot them. castration could be a good punishment for maybe a second sexual assault/rape with a bullet the penalty for the third offence/attempt.

It would appear, then, Sleepy, that you don't really expect castration to work very well, since you expect there could be a third offence, is that correct?

JTPB

Zulu wrote:

I'll drop you whole dole rant. But you above solution isn't very well taught out there Sleepy. If someone was convicted twice previously, and was accused of rape again incorrectly/unjustly (lets say a cry rape case: the woman decides she didn't want to mar her image by having had sex with a rapist), it would be next or near impossible for him to convince a jury/judge that he was innocent.
The result: death penalty for an innocent man. Now if he was sent to rehab/prison, he'd always have the chance of his verdict being overturned (due to new evidence etc.)

We are out of the dark ages - lets try and progress

I'm not 100% sure that I am right on this, but it has always very much seemed to me that sexual crimes seem to enrage people - at least some people - to a degree which most other violent crime really doesn't.

I suspect, Zulu, that that might make it more difficult than usual to progress this issue - sexual crimes seem to induce this kind of Dark Ages mentality.

On the whole, though, I have found the comments here to be fairly high quality to very high quality.

Zulu

Kell wrote:

For a moment, step back in the cold harsh reality that is life and remove the notion that execution is a vengeful backlash from society. Consider, if you will, the cost saved to the public at large by not having to sustain a perp for the term he/she is inside. Consider for a moment, that the cost to the state for maintaining a perp inside for a term of 8+ years will far exceed the amount of money that will ever be given over to the rehabilitation of the victim.

We don't/should never base laws on money. Forget about the cost. One human life is worth all the money in the world. I see the point you making here - don't get me wrong, but I see human life, ANY human life, invaluable.

Kell wrote:

It would probably pay for a vast amount more free counselling through organisations such as the Rape Crisis Centre than is currently or ever will be available.

True, but thats not a solution to the problem. It's just better care afterwards. We need to strive to prevent the crime happening in the first place.

Kell wrote:

So, when you consider that the victim will get free counselling up to a point with the rape crisis centre, and then has to pay after a number of sessions, or goes private and pays through the nose (provided they are brave enough to go in the first place), whereas the perp spends x years in an institution in relatively good conditions at the states expense, is execution really a bad thing after all?

What sort of point is that to convince me!?! Prison, restricts your basic freedoms. You share it with the worst people. You call that relatively good conditions :rolleyes: ...compaired to what? An Outer Mongolian Prison!?!
Frankly, imho, prison is crude. People need treatment/rehabillation (which they don't get)

Silent Grape

these points have been made before. re read the other posts before posting your own.

dubhthach wrote:

As said before Rape is purely a power thing. It's all about having power over somebody. Now the rapist mighten have much in way of sexual desire so though chemical castration would no doubt prevent them from getting an erection doesn't mean they wouldn't rape someone with a foreign object to get a power kick.

as a fellow attackee, kell,i feel for you, and i understand your anger, in theory your ideas are good but practically i couldnt see them being implemented. i wish i couldve shown him the physical results of a misscarriage, and let him see me making unsuccessful attemps to have and enjoy sex, but ive come to realise, that my own personal revenge is get over him and not let him have that power over me. i dont fantasise about my friends beating him up any longer,because that in itself is letting him control how i feel. in attempts to look on the 'bright' side, at least he was a semi - randomer, and not someone i knew closely, like naughty girls situation.

kell the after care for rape victims should be up to scratch as it is. there is little point is comparing the money spent on prisons and the money spent on charitys like the rape crisis centre. they are too so seperate things. there are also unlimited free group sessions available, you can find out about it from a+e in vincents, i think.

JTPB

Zulu wrote:

We don't/should never base laws on money. Forget about the cost. One human life is worth all the money in the world. I see the point you making here - don't get me wrong, but I see human life, ANY human life, invaluable.

And we lock criminals up for theft, and the cost of keeping them in prison would normally greatly exceed the value of what had been stolen. I don't think, however, the idea of putting a bullet through some thief's skull because it is more economical to do that than put them in prison is a good idea, it doesn't seem very civilised.

Zulu wrote:

True, but thats not a solution to the problem. It's just better care afterwards. We need to strive to prevent the crime happening in the first place.

It seems to have been obvious from an early stage that these children who carried out the rape were heading for a criminal lifestyle. Yet, it seems nothing was done, by the ISPCC or such organisations to remove them from their environment.

Another point which is well worth making here is that the perps in this case are legally regarded as children rather than adults, according to voting age, according to their status for drinking alcohol and smoking tobacco, their status as regards certain legislation regulating sexual behaviour and pornography, and their status as regards legislation governing their entitlement to drive motor vehicles.

It would then seem very inconsistent (from a legal point of view) to punish them as harshly as adults - if they should be punished at all. I mean from a legal point of view, they would seem to be just irresponsible children rather than evil, calculating adults. :cool:

Kell

Silent Grape wrote:

as a fellow attackee, kell,i feel for you, and i understand your anger,

No need to feel, and BTW, if you ask anyone what my opionion was prior to the crime they would have said "he would prefer all rapists have their balls cut off or shot dead". What happened is dealt with and over. My slightly militant "shoot the fúcker" attitude to perps of crimes of all descriptions, has been around for a long time.

For everyones musings so far, no-one is going to stop crime. Full stop. It is in humanities genetic make up that, given a chance with something good, we will fúck it up. There are whole rafts of individuals on the face of the planet that dont have the intellectual muscle to discuss what we have been discussing for the last week or so and who dont see what we have been raving on about as a crime. So, if one raft of people see rape as a major crime and a whole other raft of people just dont understand that their actions are a crime, how do we prevent it?

I genuinely think that we are not going to stop crime. The measures to ensure that crime doesnt happen will be so draconian loads of people will be out going "the government cant do that because it fúcks with peoples civil liberties". Just like you cant raise a hand to a child in whatever scandinavian country it is. Step back and ask yourself. Who the fúck gives anyone the right to dictate to you how to raise your children? Yes there is a line that shouldnt be crossed with a slap, but thats a different thread.

As a species, we have no-where near evolved to the level of thinking of the common good and not being mé féiners all the time, and until we do evolve that much I merely suggest that we impose the harshest penalties possible. Its all very well saying we'll try rehab on the perp, or we'll try this new fangled approach to prevention, but folks, the rape stats are on the increase not on the decrease.

As for those who have asked where I am coming from with the whole "So you think prison is relatively OK Kell?" approach. Do you guys actually know anyone in prison?

As for my eye for an eye retribution attitude. Drop the eye for the eye bit, and just think of "most severe penalty" approach. And before anyone else says it, yes I am angry. Angry at the incredible cruelty that "humanity" and "civilisation" dishes out to eachother on all levels from intellectual snobbery to rape. I am angry at out tolerance for absorbing criminals who have been convicted and been found guilty of horrendous crimes back into our society. Who gains from rehabilitating a perp? They do. Well thats fúcking great, but what about the budding masses of serial rapists who reckon "ah, it wont matter if I bugger this kid/adult/male/female sideways for six months, because I'll come out the far side smelling of roses". What do we gain from developing patience and a broader understanding of the human pschy? A way to prevent crime?

Show me the statistics.

K-

sliabh

Kell wrote:

For a moment, step back in the cold harsh reality that is life and remove the notion that execution is a vengeful backlash from society. Consider, if you will, the cost saved to the public at large by not having to sustain a perp for the term he/she is inside.

It's a common misconception that executing criminals would save money. It actually is cheaper to keep them locked up for life. There are huge additional costs associated with executing someone from the costs of the extra appeals, higher standards of evidence required, the increased security needed for inmates on death row that know they have nothing left to lose, suicide watches and then the cost of the execution itself.

Whatever else the death penalty is it's not the cheap option.

In general Kell you seem like you are pretty angry. There are a lot of people in the world and while there are some that are scumbags, my view (and 30 odd years of experience) is that the vast majority are basically decent, whatever views or opinions they may subscribe to.

But in advocating a swift, violent, revenge orientated justice system frankly that puts you closer to the people that think they can get away with hurting and abusing other humans for whatever reasons they have (be they power, sexual, money or just because they feel "they had it coming to them"). Most people are not like that which is why over the last few hundred years we have turned our societies into something much more humane. In the west where more enlightened attitudes apply, society is better and crime lower by these approaches. If you have doubts about that get some good social history books and see where we have come from.

The danger these days is that sensationalist media peddles fear in the pursuit of sales and people then start to advocate terrible solutions to what are terrible crimes. But we have been there before and executing and torturing criminals, while it may make you feel better in the short term, doesn't help society in the long term.

My sister had a shotgun held to the back of her head in a bank robbery and I saw what it did to her psychologically afterwards. My initial reaction was that I wanted to kill the f*ckers. But decisions made when angry are the ones that you will regret most later. The Guards caught the gang and they all got jail sentences. That I felt was justice. One later killed himself in Mountjoy and I regret that happened because I know he probably has a family somewhere.

Ultimately you can't build a society that is built on hate and fear and revenge.

Specky

Ultimately you can't build a society that is built on hate and fear and revenge.

...not without a good, solid foundation of state sponsored religeous biggotry and ignorance.

Kell

sliabh wrote:

Ultimately you can't build a society that is built on hate and fear and revenge.

Yes, I am quite angry, but I do not advocate what you are suggesting I advocate. The stone cold reality is that if we want a society that is humane, we need to address issues like poverty, like proper social services, like proper re-hab of victims (and if you like the perp ((Kell begrudges))) but these are areas that governments round the globe are not taking too much interest in.

Lets face it, any government spend on health or social welfare, isnt so much a strategy, its a vote gathering tool (ok so I'll limit it to the Irish example). Without the investment in avoidance therapies i.e. educating the uneducated that it is wrong to steal, assault and rape, then all we are doing is fire fighting and while we are fire fighting, too many people are getting burnt.

When we stop spending money on property, government jets, weapons programmes and the rest and instead look to doing something good with the planet and society, then yes, we will have achieved a humane society. The sad reality is that our governments elect arent giving enough time and effort to the issues we debate here and until they do, then an awful lot of damage is yet to come.

K-

sliabh

Kell wrote:

Lets face it, any government spend on health or social welfare, isnt so much a strategy, its a vote gathering tool (ok so I'll limit it to the Irish example). Without the investment in avoidance therapies i.e. educating the uneducated that it is wrong to steal, assault and rape, then all we are doing is fire fighting and while we are fire fighting, too many people are getting burnt.

Up to a point I would agree.

I remember an interview I heard on the radio a few years ago with some "Howyas" from one of the deprived estates on the west of Dublin. The interviewer was asking these two lads why they were involved in stealing cars. The lads gave the answer that there was nothing else to do, so they went joy riding. The interviewer then asked, "but what about the youth centre" and talked about some of the facilities there. The response:
"But wez barred from dere"

:-)

sliabh

In a slightly related and lighter topic. I get Boards.ie notifications sent to my mail account to tell me when there are new posts. I recently moved to a Google "Gmail" address so you get linked ads based on the content of the mails. For all other boards postings I get various ads for computers, books travel and what not.

But for mails relating to this "Castration" subject the ad section is blank. Google just doesn't know what to try to sell me

:-)

pretty-in-pink

the debate for best way to deal with a sex offender could rage on forever----it has in a way cause its an age old problem. let god take care of the sinners cause if we destroy them we are no better ( i know slight change of heart but iv been thinking bout it in a way the cruelty is worse if its subtle.....little things to undermine u, make u feel bad and then acting innocent like u havent done anything.) if its out and out obvious then you cant help but know its wrong....if its hidden u question your sanity too.

its a big grey area really. the only definates in it are assualt is wrong and that it feels crappy. when u draw in motive, degrees of cruelty, appropriate punishment etc it all starts to cloud in. everyone is screwed up, but we all react differently. i think its the "stop" barrier....some of us can but some of us cant. im sure everyone here has wanted to do damage to something r someone...but we dont all do it. hmmmm this is really complicated

Sleepy

Silent Grape wrote:

honestly sleepy, the death penalty for rape is ridiculous idea. the 'eye for an eye' attitude of some people is bad enough, without people like you, who are trying to make yourself sound like you know what your talking about, saying that 'an eye for an eye, plus a leg, and heck why not whole body'

If someone can't live by society's rules, in my opinion, they have no place in that society. Sure, we all make mistakes once in a while, but when society tolerates (and to some extent seems to even pity) scumbags that have no regard for others or their property, we jsut contribute to making this country a place where none of us are safe. Lock repeat offenders up and throw away the key is another solution but to do this punishes the innocent by making them pay higher taxes for other's misdeeds. If you want to let people live by the knife, you have to allow society to see to it that they die by the knife.

the running for mayor thing was sarcastic, i really didnt want to learn about all ur problems with our country. you dont believe in democracy? so what do you believe in, Lord of All Knowlege Sleepy??

Meritocracy. Rule by those fit and qualified to do so. And no, I don't include myself in that number yet.

people are forced onto the dole for many different and complex reasons. my brother is on the dole at the moment, he cant work due to having addiction/mental illness problems. you cant generalise to such a huge extent.

I'm sorry to hear that but surely your brother is on disability as opposed to the dole? Where did I state I had a problem with disability benefit?

Your whole attitude is so self reightous and idealistic. your only 23, you're not wise enough to be making these kind of potent remarks, which i am slightly offended by.

You're perfectly entitled to be offended to my remarks. However, to state that I'm idealistic is really quite strange. I see scumbags and I offer a solution. You see them and want to help them. I'm sorry but someone who has that kind of a rapsheet can't be helped. They are scum, incapable of living in any civilised society.

you go talk to a rapists family, and see what they think of the 'bullet to the head' approach. see there's more than one person involved here. just the way my family had to suffer the trauma of my rape, so do the rapists family, plus their sons murder.

I think many rapists families would agree with me. I'm sorry you had to experience the ordeal but an attitude as soft as you advocate merely encourages those involved to re-offend. By not punishing those at fault harshly enough you place others in danger of experiencing the same terrible events that you've had the misfortune of having to survive.

JTPB wrote:

It would appear, then, Sleepy, that you don't really expect castration to work very well, since you expect there could be a third offence, is that correct?

As others have already pointed out, those determined enough to re-offend could do so through black market purchasing of testosterone injections. I would imagine that castration might work for some portion of these people, hence it would be solution enough.

JTPB wrote:

Could I ask, is it only repeat sexual offences that you would consider the "bullet penalty" for?

Not at all. To my mind, if someone has the sort of rapsheet that many of Ireland's career criminals have with numerous charges of assault, GBH, burglary, GTA, etc. etc. etc. they deserve the bullet.


Please bare in mind that I advocate harsh justice in allignment with proper funding of social services. The extremity of punishment in my proposals would, to my mind only be a short term necessity. Once certain sections of our community realise that crime doesn't pay (which at present it most certainly does) they'll see that it's in their own best interest (because, after all, this is all they're interested in anyway) to comply with the law, better themselves (with the institutions, services and facilities made available to them) and become worthwhile members of the community instead of leeches making others live in fear.

Kell

Sleepy wrote:

Please bare in mind that I advocate harsh justice in allignment with proper funding of social services. The extremity of punishment in my proposals would, to my mind only be a short term necessity. Once certain sections of our community realise that crime doesn't pay (which at present it most certainly does) they'll see that it's in their own best interest (because, after all, this is all they're interested in anyway) to comply with the law, better themselves (with the institutions, services and facilities made available to them) and become worthwhile members of the community instead of leeches making others live in fear.

Someone who purports my idea. Mmmn. Are we starting a movement?

I remember an interview I heard on the radio a few years ago with some "Howyas" from one of the deprived estates on the west of Dublin. The interviewer was asking these two lads why they were involved in stealing cars. The lads gave the answer that there was nothing else to do, so they went joy riding. The interviewer then asked, "but what about the youth centre" and talked about some of the facilities there. The response:
"But wez barred from dere"

Sliabh, I dont understand you interjection of this article (I might just be stupid). I am not sure how this example fits in with your other arguments. I am not sure whether you are trying to state that rehab is a waste of time when the damage is already done, or, generally what was inferred by the article at all.

Can you let us know what you meant by it?

Cheers,

K-

Sleepy

What I inferred from Sliabh's comment there was that it doesn't matter how much you give some scumbags, they'll still just be scumbags. If you can't live without the need to harm others, you don't deserve life. It's that simple really.

It's not fair to punish a population for the acts of one person.

JTPB

Sleepy wrote:

As others have already pointed out, those determined enough to re-offend could do so through black market purchasing of testosterone injections. I would imagine that castration might work for some portion of these people, hence it would be solution enough.

I don't see why, though, if you what you really want is a Final Solution, you are prepared to tolerate the ineffective half-measure of castration. At least imprisonment would mean that they 100% could not rape - for the length of time they were locked up. Hence, imprisonment would be more effective - even if more expensive. (I know there was this business mentioned of the possibility of killing the wrong person - but imprisonment rather than a bullet through the head would ensure that this would not happen).

Sleepy wrote:

Not at all. To my mind, if someone has the sort of rapsheet that many of Ireland's career criminals have with numerous charges of assault, GBH, burglary, GTA, etc. etc. etc. they deserve the bullet.

Thank you for the clarification. I don't think I have ever seen a poll or a discussion started asking for example if we should chop off theives hands, which is why I asked. (Or, for example, if the law should blind security-van raiders who threaten to blind security guards with ammonia).

Sleepy wrote:

Please bare in mind that I advocate harsh justice in allignment with proper funding of social services. The extremity of punishment in my proposals would, to my mind only be a short term necessity. Once certain sections of our community realise that crime doesn't pay (which at present it most certainly does) they'll see that it's in their own best interest (because, after all, this is all they're interested in anyway) to comply with the law, better themselves (with the institutions, services and facilities made available to them) and become worthwhile members of the community instead of leeches making others live in fear.

I will.

By the way, I came across this nugget of information:

"FACT:.Of 9,691 sex offenders released from prison in 15 states, 3.5% were re-convicted of another sex offense within 3-years of release. (This is the second lowest recidivism rate of all crimes)


here:

http://www.geocities.com/eadvocate/issues/index.html

This would seem to contradict what I usually read in newspapers, that sex-offender recidivism is very high.

sliabh

Sleepy wrote:

What I inferred from Sliabh's comment there was that it doesn't matter how much you give some scumbags, they'll still just be scumbags.

That would be my point. You cna do all you want to try to remvoe sources of crime but some people still won't care. I remember a Guard saying once that some people would never commit a crime, some always would and the battle then was for the hearts and minds of the rest.

Sleepy wrote:

If you can't live without the need to harm others, you don't deserve life. It's that simple really.

That very definitly was NOT my point. I am anti-death penalty, But I don't think there are easy solutions to these sort of problems. If there were we would have found them a long time ago.

Iago

IMHO I think the Arab states have it right, let the punishment fit the crime, if you steal something you lose a hand, if you rape someone you lose your genitals etc.

If these punishments were applied without fail in every case where the suspect was proven to be guilty the crime rate would decrease dramatically. It would only have to be a short term thing because people would stop committing crimes. I agree that you will always have some people who are predisposed to criminal activity, but the vast majority of people wouldn't commit crime, the people who are circumstantial criminals (e.g. teens and early twenties coming out from nightclubs and fighting or causing disturbance) would soon dissapear and Ireland would be a much better country for it.

The lack of capital punishment in schools and the home is directly responsible for the decline in respect, good manners and decency in this country and the only way to stamp it out is to take drastic measures.

There is of course the argument that some people who are initially convicted of a crime are later proved innocent and this form of punishment isn't compatible in those cases, but my conscience can live with that. It will happen, after all the system is designed by humans and we make mistakes but as far as I'm concerned the benefits far outstrip the risks...

just my 2c